DCS: Is it really THAT hard???

[spankybird]

Dave you can down load one from this site

http://www.protosound2.com/service.asp

tom

[FJ and G]

DCS takes just a couple hours to set up and run for most small or mid-sized layouts.

There are lots of advanced things you can do with DCS, but I misplaced my DCS manual. Couldn't find MTH online manual. Am I hunting in wrong place?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Now that i have the Magizine and have read the artical in question, i can see the problem. THat artical really gave me the willies and i run TMCC. I could not believe that it could be that overwhelming. Now a lot of that has to be because the DCS has so many more features than the TMCC. No harm admiting the truth.[:D] However since i really don't want all that extra stuff, i will stay by my original assertion that TMCC is indeed the better choice, if for no other reason than its ease of use, and ease of setup. Personally i hope that TMCC-2 keeps its ease or set up and understanding whenit arrives.
BTW, i know understand the "light bulb" trick, that is really bizzare. [}:)]

And just to round out our conversation on the subject, how hard is DCC to wire up?
Thanks and have a great holiday.
Bill

[CSX FAN]

Thanks again

RAK I was thinking of your layout and Allens layout in Texas. Your method seems to be the way to go at the moment for the portable layouts.

Jamie

[BigJim]

"but programming locomotives to do tricks like recordings and loops. "

Now if we could only get GE to do this!!!

[wrmcclellan]

Jamie,

I wi***o congratulate you for the article and taking the time to asemble all the information into one place. It is a job well done.

To answer your particular question, I do not have any knowledge of what any clubs with portable layouts are doing.

Obviously the size of the layout will determine how far one will have to go. If it is large and they wi***o have reliable operation (as those of us with large layouts to maintain have painfully learned), then it will be prudent for them to follow the guidelines you published.

I can attest (as do many posts on OGR and CTT) that not following those guidelines will not spell disaster for everyone, but we experienced long periods of solid DCS behavior followed by periods of totally eratic behavior (once went for about 4 months with the DCS not working at all until we made lots of minor adjustments). Our layout evolved early last year into precisely what you published and the DCS operation has been stable since that time (and this is also backed up by many posts on OGR and CTT).

Thanks again for your hard work that backs up what many of us have implemented and will serve as an excellent guideline for those in process of building a layout (large or small) that will use DCS.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

"My question to you all or wrmcclellan is what are the protable club layouts doing. I have seen a couple using grid layouts with paired wires insted of a common ground working pretty good. How about you all?"

Jamie,

Our 25' X 25' demo layout is set up on the floor.

The TIU is in the middle, mounted vertically. A 5' wire runs from each TIU port to an MTH Panel (as you describe and show in your article), and the wires all radiate out from the center. There are two wires going to each block (like you, I like multiple wire drops per block-as long as the combination of block length and wire is not long enough to cause an out-of-phase condition, it works very, very well). All of the wires from the MTH panels to the track are 15' long (you mentioned paired wiring lengths-this is like taking it to the extreme but logical, given that the layout is square with the TIU in the center). Track connections are all made with MTH lighted lock-ons.

The layout always works exactly the same-complete and solid control.

[CSX FAN]

As a follow up I have a friends 31'x 33' layout coming on line. Everything is new the track, engines, batteries, DCS, Z4K's, Z-4000.... This was intersesting because I never got to get it all at once. It was tricking to get going especialy dealing with the clear coat on the Ross Track. It started right off the bat but had run for several hours to charge everthing up and to break in the rails. Once alittle breakin period was done the DCS has been flawless. Like WRmcclellan posted above I have another hooked on DCS friend that won't go back. [:D] We ran that layout for 8 hours the first night and didn't even realise it.

Jamie

[CSX FAN]

Thanks Guys.

I don't think DCS is that hard to do especialy for the smaller layouts. As some of you know things start happening on the larger layouts. You just have to try it for your self. The purpose of the artical was for the bigger ones. The last one realy deals with the AIU's which realy lack documentation. I told MTH I would write an update but never got to it yet.

The second artical is on line here.

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/906enrww.asp

More DCS tips


If anyone needs detail copies of the layouts I could fax them. I asbuilted Tony's layout and was considered to techincal to print not to mention it would require a fold out to do so. Mine isn't so bad to look at. I lost my hard drive and no longer have the printed RR copy. Pictures of my layout are on the other Forum linked below.

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/453102703/m/3561079072
DCS Wiring

The artical was actualy alot longer but they had to cut it down and simplify it. I probably should have wrote a book. The artical is 48 pages long in it's complete text. Add all the photo's and some of the wiring diagrams and it would be huge. I have notebooks of wiring diagrams for the old post war Lionel and Gilbert stuff I've done. who would like to have those handy? Plus Daylight Don and I have work on a couple of TSLI set ups to run Dallee And Ross units with the AIU's. I have posted those on the photo album also.

Paul I think you said it all. Good luck getting your DCS unit back!![:D] THats how I got into TMCC. My local hobby shop told me to quit my winning about the Lionel engines cost. Take the unit If you can't get it hooked up and running in five minutes or you don't like it . Bring it back other wise you can pay me for it next time you see me. I gave him the money. The DCS wasn't as easy but not to difficult to figure out. I wasn't as lucky as many others. MTH did the same to me when I showed them all the problems I was having. THey saw my control panel wiring harnesses and offered me the first AIU to use. After about a month they did get it back but I was completly sold on DCS. ( I promissed to give it back before they would give it to me.)

The track wiring wasn't all that bad. Now that the system has been fiquired out I don't think it would take much longer to install than any converntional layout. You just have to go to the terminal strip instead of the TIU. I know several people that have there layouts working on grid wire. Including some serious rat's nests.

Had I known know what I know now I would have saved a ton of wire for the Accesory side of the layout. Distributiong the TIU with remote AIU's would greatly simplfy wiring.

For those of you that have seen Tony's layout can see he elimated alot of wire with DCS.
His layout has over 300 drops. Haveing those terminal strips grouped all his blocks close together and eliminated some very long home runs. To see a scmatic of his layout is impressive. CTT just couldn't print it out it was so big.


My question to you all or wrmcclellan is what are the protable club layouts doing. I have seen a couple using grid layouts with paired wires insted of a common ground working pretty good. How about you all?


Jamie

[waltrapp]

(Sounds off-topic but I'll tie it together)

At York I purchased a wireless camera system. You've seen the guy - he had a set up in the purple hall and runs an 'N' scale engine and transmits to his TV. I'm not savvy about wireless 'anything', nor am I versed in the nuances of transmitting signals. The directions in the box point out that the antenna on the receiver and the antenna on the camera should be oriented in the same relative position for optimum performance. If the antenna on the camera is vertical, then set the antena on the receiver vertical. Ditto for horizontal. Something about the way waves are sent and received (wish I could speak more intelligently about it).

Now for the tie-in:

I think the same theory is at work with TIU positioning since both the TIU and the hand held have antennaes in them. When people say that they get better performance when the TIU is vertical, I'm guessing that those people hold the hand held somewhat vertical, thus matching antenna orientation.

I have my TIU flat but, given that I have a floor layout, my remote is probably more horizontal than vertical. Never really thought about it.

I don't think it matters in most cases but I'm FAR from the DCS guru.

Oh, and sign me up with the "It ain't that hard" crowd. There are things to do that will minimize the chances of things going fluey so they're probably best followed if possible. However, as many have mentioned, there are some of us that merely broke the wires between the existing layout and the transformer, inserted the TIU and AIU, and were off and running.

- walt

[spankybird]

My TIU is also laying flat inside a cabinet. MTH does recommand if you are having RF problems, and out of range problems, to mount the TIU in a vertical postion. It is something to check if you are having out of range errors.

[garyseven]

BTW - DCS was, if I remember right, a ten minute set up.

[garyseven]

Kooljock1

I actually listen to talk radio through DCS [:O][:P][;)]

[jonadel]

TIU does not need to be in a vertical position, good grief.

Jon

[FJ and G]

Tom,

Didn't know TIU needs to be in vertical position. I lay mine flat.

Also, I think the batteries in my handheld need charging as the handheld turns off every couple of minutes, even when I'm continually using it.

[cnw1995]

Yeesh, reading this gives me the willies. I know it must be easier than it looks in print but I'm going home to hug my R transformer...

[Anonymous]

No DCS isn't that hard, but it isn't as easy as that picture makes it seem. I notice the TMCC system shows connecting cables, yet the DCS system does not. And, if you want to compare apples to apples, the DCS picture should also include the famous light bulbs. 3 years later, and still not a better solution?

Both are fine systems, and have their good points and bad.

If you wan to run MTH engines in command , buy DCS. If you want to run Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail in command , buy TMCC.

If you want to run them all, buy both.

[waltrapp]

One more to add to Roy's list, and Dave's followup:

8. Since power is going to the PS2 engine, even if it is shut down the internal timer is ticking. I suppose this only matters if you plan on selling it some day. Me, I toggle switch my sidings just because I don't like power running thru the engines when not in use. Paranoid I guess.

- walt

[Anonymous]

Granted, with 1 plug & 1 set of wires & a Cab1, you'll have basic funtions with TMCC, but you won't have full controll of the entire layout, like DCS does with just 3 items: Remote / TIU / AIU.

This picture says it all:
http://ca.geocities.com/ambassador_martok/1dayfiles/DCS-TMCC.jpg

[snsntt]

TMCC is the better choice. I've used it for years with no problems.
It took MTH several years to release the TIU because of the signal problems and it seems the problem has not been fully solved....yet. I have an equal number of MTH and Lionel engines and love them all, but I am not going to rewire my layout (36X22) just for DCS.

Joe

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wisnis

....
The problem is that the layout will run flawlessly for a period of time and then an engine will suddenly "not be found" or "out of range" errors occur. Sometimes cycling the power helps but not consistently. The layout employs Z4000s and 2 TIUs. The TIUs and hand helds have been swapped out with brand new units that were "tuned up at the factory" to address the problem.

Any ideas out there?

HI wisnis,

Welcome to the CTT forum


Here are a couple of things to check when you are having problems

1. How fresh are the batteries in your remote. I doubt if this is the problem, but it’s worth checking.
2. Is there a cell or cordless phone in the area being used. One friend of mine has this problem. If he is on his cell phone and hits the direction button, it cut off his cell phone.
3. Are your TIU in a vertical (upright) position [?]
4. If you are inclined to remover the cover off the TIU and remote, check the position of the antennas

tom [;)]

[Anonymous]

Can you really say that one plug into the wall, and one wire to the track is not the easiest to set up? One wire runs my entire multilevel layout. And yes, i cna run multiple trains at once also. So unless DCS has no wires and it runns off of air currents, then TMCC is indeed the easier to set up and run.
Bill

[Railrunnin]

IN A WORD: NO! DCS = Doesn't Come Simpler, read on.....

My friend Noel aka Lackamoney, has wanted to try DCS on his layout. Yesterday I brought over my TIU and Handheld. Noel has a reputation at the club for having a dark, technology impaired cloud over his head. Here is my report:

Well who would have thunk it would go so easy? Noel and I had a great time yesterday hooking up DCS to the two mainlines on his roughly 14x18 layout. It was tough going at first, took us at least 10 minutes to unhook the wires and rewire for DCS :)

We started cautiously. One engine, Lackawanna Northern I think, on the outside track. After some rudimentary instructions the handheld was turned over to Noel. Noel was soon engrossed in many of the features of DCS. He liked the fact his engine wasn't identified as Engine 1, or Engine 42... It was identified as Lackawanna Northern Roadnumber XXXX. So far so good, but Noel was still acting cautiously, the only remedy for that was to put another engine on the same track ;)

Let me cut to the chase: Soon we had THREE engines running on track one and TWO engines running on track two all being controlled by the master of Technology (NOT) aka Noel. There were Northerns and Camelbacks and Lackawannas Oh My. He went back and forth from controlling them independently to controlling them all together. He even allowed my NS GP38 to share the rails. A DIESAL ON NOELS LAYOUT!!!

There was smoke pouring and when the whistles were all sounded at once it was something to behold. Noel was on his toes keeping the engines spaced nicely apart and watching wide eyed as he controlled all five engines. Then Noel put the inner loops into action running some Postwar and other stuff and soon there he was, in control of 10 separate trains. We were engulfed in noise, smoke, fun,, smoke fluid refills on the fly, and general mayhem. I don't know who had more fun, but big smiles were the order of the day.

We did have some mishaps on the inner loops. I think we traced the derailments to a wayward boom catching the train on the next track in the tunnel. Why is it always in the tunnel?

Noel was surprised when I told him not to unhook DCS and enjoy it for a couple of weeks. I did suggest that maybe he should start off solo with less than 5 engines on the track. Four and a half hours flew by like 20" and I had to take my leave. As I'm walking out the door, Ginny presented me with a half of a loaf of fresh baked raisin nut bread. It was perfect after the gym.

DCS, Doesn't Come Simpler: Now endorsed by the Master of Technology - Our Own Noel Lackamoney. More days should be like that.

Paul J Licata

[wrmcclellan]

graz,

I certainly empathize with your viewpoint. Unfortunately limited marketplaces like toy and scale model trains, coupled with some venders reluctance to not share their technology to allow other manufacturers to drive improvements lead to these type of issues, where one has to depend almost exclusively on a forum to get answers.

TMCC, DCS, and DCC all have issues that can make operation challenging. I have worked extensively with all of these technologies. None of them is perfect.

If you want a comparison, I wish my PC and its peripherals worked as well and as reliably as TMCC, DCS, or DCC.

BTW - there is a solution to part of the problem you wi***o solve. You can install any of these technologies into all your equipment and turn off lights and what have you. TMCC and DCC will do this at less cost per car than DCS as DCS has no counterpart at this time to the various TMCC compatible products for in-car accessory control (e.g. the Mini-Commander from Electric RR) since MTH at this time is not allowing anyone else to license their technology as Lionel and the DCC manufacturers have.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

No matter how people try to slice it, TMCC is both easier and less expensive as a control system to run trains. Now DCS has some very nice advanced features, but i really dont need to hear the engineer sneeze or a couple having an argument in the sleeper car.[:D] I have enjoyed my TMCC ever since the day i bought it, and it has performed flawlessly over two years. If you want more bells and wistles, by all means, go for DCS. However if you want something that works, easy to install, and is easy to understand buy TMCC.
Bill

[Anonymous]

Roy,
I'm not saying that conventional power cut-offs don't have merit. I'm just saying that their installation shouldn't be REQUIRED to make the digital control system perform without error. One of the original selling points for digital (before DCS) was that you can have many locos on the same layout and even the same tracks with no issue and no block wiring. I would not accept the idea of having to install toggles. I would want MTH to offer a reason and a solution.
I recall that one of the guys on the OGR forum whom is in the NJ highrailers club mentioned that DCS was giving them some fits on the large club layout. Not sure if they ever found a fix.

[FJ and G]

Roy,

6. at my home layout, I'm having power cutoffs on spurs to park conventional locomotives, which I operate separately from command control-equiped.

7. When I'm programming a locomotive, I shut off power to the other locomotives completely

[wrmcclellan]

graz,

In addition to the above, there are several reasons to cut off sidings...

1. With many parked engines and passenger trains on our club layout, one starts to draw several amps which detract from the ability to run trains in the power district controlled by that TIU. Remember a TIU can only handle about 10 amps per port. If you eat up 4-5 amps with parked stuff, that double headed lighted passenger train may exceed the TIUs capability.

2. To preserve the lifetime of bulbs in the equipment. Remember they are all running at full votlage.

3. To prevent runaway equipment that sometimes happens when someone accidentally removes a critical control signal (like TMCC) and all engines launch at full speed. Yes this stuff happens on a club layout when some folks mess with things they should not.

4. To prevent an engine or train being moved accidentally due to a duplicate loco number (TMCC case) and the operator doesn't know he is moving two trains on different areas of the layout.

5. To prevent an operator that has a duplicate loco (DCS case), i.e. two different UP 0-6-0 Switchers on the layout, yet unique loco # in the DCS handheld, and he is controlling the wrong one, doesn't understand why the one he is looking at is not moving and the other one is taking off as he keeps increasing the speed!

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

I agree with Roy that the advantage of the modern system should be that you don't need to add all the extra control switches/wiring or place locomotives in specific locations. I'm going to continue my search for the optimal solution that provides the intended operation.

Another question we should be asking is: Where's MTH? Shouldn't they be providing the answers to these questions?