Dunhams Studios Layouts

[Anonymous]

I tried posting a critique of this companies megabuck layouts on another forum and it promptly disappeared. SInce I was only discussing the layout, I'll never know what the objection was, so perhaps we can discuss it here. .
Dunham Studios is a builder of expensive toy train layouts run by a man who was formerly a Broadway set designer. His layouts cost $300-$350 per square foot and he has built several display layouts across the country.
. While Dunham layouts are well engineered and designed they seem to be constructed from all "stock" components. The backdrops are original but they look like something out of the movie Wizard of Oz to my eyes. I see liltte realism, weathering and no effort to promote prototype operation. I would think that for $80,000 to $100,00 a customer should receive the best-a custom built "one of a kind" layout, that has original structures and considers some scale appearance.
While many look up to Dunham as a premier layout builder, his creations look toyi***o my eyes and no where close to the spectacular and realistic look of the great classic layouts of Ellison., Allen, Botzow & Miller. Since this is just my opinion, I'd like to hear yours.

[nblum]

Dennis, I see your point, but I don't think Clark Dunham is trying for a John Allen result in most of his three rail layouts. There is the toy train heritage to be reckoned with. He and his people built the S scale two rail exhibit in Cincinnati, which is much more scale in appearance. I also believe you are quoting the absolute high end of his charges. Bare bones or layouts without extensive scratch building are in the $100-200 per square foot price range if I recall. Still not inexpensive, but considerably less so than the number you're quoting. I believe the layout in the current OGRR mag is about 250 square feet and cost about $35,000 which is more in line with the numbers I've specified. Correct me if I'm wrong. Still a big chunk of change, but no different than adding a modest sized room onto your house and more fun IMO.

On balance, I think he and his people do nice work, whimsical but artistic. If one has got a net worth of say, 1-2 million, investing $50,000 in a layout and driving a Toyota Camry rather than a Lexus sedan for the next 10 years seems a good plan to me. Others' mileage will differ. A year at a private college will cost you $40,000 for 8 months. A layout might last for 10-20 years and be more educational. And so on and so forth.

[Anonymous]

Neil: Thanks for your comments and opinion.
If you figure the sq footage of Vinnie Mastretas layout built by Dunham and the quote in that artcle $300-$350 sq ft) , the layout cost should be somewhere around $75,000 to $80,000. It would have been nice to have that figure for reference but even for $35,000; don't forget that no rolling stock. or accessories was included.
Yes Dunhams layout are certainly nice, well planned, and built. However, for a "Noted Broadway Scenic Designer" as he is touted, and for the megabucks that he charges, he should be held to a higher standard. Therefore we should expect far bettter in his layouts like hand painted backdrops, scratch built structures and realistic scenery just like they use on Broadway. Where's the "Top notch Broadway" scenic influence in Dunhams creations.? I see the same stuff on Dunham layouts that the basement hobbiest uses (with the exception of his "WIzard of Oz" /Advertising style backdrops) . If you advertise yourself to be the best, then you can charge for it but also be prepared to prove it.

[Anonymous]

" If you advertise yourself to be the best, then you can charge for it but also be prepared to prove it."
----------------------

Prove it to who?

If the client is happy with the results--and obviously this client was quite happy--that is all that matters. Doesn't matter in the least what the rest of the world thinks.

Vinnie had a choice of a number of custom layout builders to choose from, and he chose Clarke Dunham. It's just like the choices that face a person who purchases art to hang on his living room wall--you go with the artist that you feel best meets your specific and highly individual tastes. John Allen (or any of hundreds of accomplished layout builders who could be cited) was one type of artist with his own individual style. Clarke Dunham is no less an artist in executing his own style. The client ultimately decides whose style or which style best suits his needs and interests.

A lot of folks seem to be put off by the costs involved in such a project. Well, it's like the old saw about yachts: If you have to ask, you probably can't afford it. The way I see it, if you have plenty of money to play with, by all means go ahead and play to your heart's content! Life is short and fragile, so go for it. I'll never be in such a well-off position myself, but I sure don't begrudge those who are from doing their thing in their own way. That's certainly what I would do if I was in the same position.

In sum: Dunham proved all he has to prove. He was retained by a client and he made that client and hid family happy. Can't ask for much more than that!

[pbjwilson]

I think there is a difference between a layout which is built for someone or for a display in a museum and one which is built by the "owner'.

First Clarke Dunham wants to make money, a profit. So he needs to build in a manner which is efficient and profitable. Hours spent building sccatch built structures are not
profitable. Or hours spent creating a "masterpiece" backdrop.

Someone building for himself can spend endless hours on minute details and not have to worry about making a living doing it.

In my work, I paint murals and decorative paint effects on walls and furniture, I am always aware of my time and how to use it to make money and not wasting it trying to "create a masterpiece".

What Dunham Studios does in my opinion is top notch "production layouts". I don't think they are out to create something thats never been done before or something super detailed, weathered, etc.

If you want to make layouts in the realm of John Allen etc. you can take that $300 per square foot and double or triple it. That might get you close to it.

[Frank53]

from my perspective, you just can't buy the sense of pride and accomplishment that comes from having built your own masterpiece. It may have flaws, it may not be expertly wired, you may not want to have anyone look too closely at the detail of the structures, etc, etc, but in the end, it's all yours.

The hobby belongs to the hobbyist, not the person with the biggest wallet.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Frank53

from my perspective, you just can't buy the sense of pride and accomplishment that comes from having built your own masterpiece. It may have flaws, it may not be expertly wired, you may not want to have anyone look too closely at the detail of the structures, etc, etc, but in the end, it's all yours.

The hobby belongs to the hobbyist, not the person with the biggest wallet.

I'll second those feelings. We had a discussion here on the forum a while back, about whether the magazines should feature home layouts that were essentially purchased. I don't have a problem seeing production layouts that are open to the public, being featured. But I'd rather see layouts that are built by hobbyists, even if they aren't as polished.

[FJ and G]

Reg. professional layouts; I've come 180 degrees and don't mind seeing them anymore (I used to get angry when I saw them in the mag., but anger management and back meds took care of that problem).

Now, I'm interested in seeing a well-done layout and one that explains how it was done; w/lots of pictures and text.

[Frank53]

Dave:

I agree with a good part of your post - I want to see professionally made layouts so I can see how things are done and learn from them.

But when showing my layout, there is no substitue for being able to say "I built it and to be able to point out the subtle details that are my own creation.

[FJ and G]

Frank,

Exactly my thoughts as well; but I've become resigned to people having pros do it and try my best not to be critical. Some folks who do it are old or a bit handicapped and just want to enjoy running the trains.

For you and I, it's the entire package that's important, building it and running them; and we wouldn't have a pro near our work.

[Anonymous]

Hello All: Look at the age of the people that are haveing these layouts built. Typically 45 -70 yrs. of age. Wehave never had so many people in this age bracket with this amount of disposable income. Think about it, double income households, both Husband & Wife have pensions & retirement plans, PLUS a lot of inherited dollars from the parents & grandparents. This baby boom generation are very self indulgent, & if you worked for it why not enjoy it. They don't want to wait 20 years for the layout to be complete. Besides they have the summer cottage & the home in Florida to look after. When you think about it , Dunham has managed to capitalize on a whole new market, just goes to show you there is always a new market to be explored in this GREAT HOBBY. Kind Regards to All Steve

[dougdagrump]

Personally I could care less whether the layout is professionally or amateur built, I enjoy seeing them all. Besides there are some people who have a lot of talent to do this, some who have no talent to do this and a lot of people somewhere in between. As long as the end result is that an owner/operator enjoys his/her hobby that is all that matters, besides it might end up creating an interest in somebody who sees their layout.

[Anonymous]

In the many years I've been involved in this hobby, both as a participant and on the industry side, I've had the opportunity to visit literally hundreds of home and club layouts in all scales, and both indoors and outdoors. Some were what I considered to be great; some were good; and some were. . . well. . . not particularly what I would want for myself.

But in all cases the layouts were something their respective owners were proud of and willing to share with others. That is all that mattered. I never cared who built the layout, how much it cost, or how many individuals were involved. I only care about how the result strikes me, as an individual, and, especially, how well it meets the overall goals of the individual who owns it.

I see a lot of "layout envy" (for lack of a better term) in this hobby--the "have-nots" displaying overt jealousy at what the "haves" may possess. Sheer nonsense! If a person can afford a $100,000 layout, more power to him! If you aspire to such a thing yourself, get out and work your butt off to achieve your goal, or be content with what you can realistically achieve with more modest means (applicable to the vast majority of us). But get away from this petty and small-minded "well, it's not so great because he didn't do it himself" crap! How the layout came into being has little or no relevance. The end result and the pleasure it brings to its owner is all that really matters.

Just my opinion after reading some of the whining here and elsewhere.

[Frank53]

speaking of whinning, that was a good bit of it right there.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Those that don't share your view aren't necessarily "whining", maybe they just don't agree with you.

And maybe, just maybe, you're not right all the time.

But that's just my opinion after reading the whiney missive above.

[Anonymous]

FranK;
I'm not sure that I agree that there is any whining here. LIke other posts I view this as the open exchange of ideas and opinions- no argument as to right or wrong.
Dunham charges $300-$350 per square foot for his creations. Putting this into perspective that's about $10,000 for a 4 x 8' area. If one pays this amount, should you not recieve the best? Then the question becomes since they are charging for the best; is this layout really the best, the Rolls Royce of layouts so to speak.
Perhaps my post should have simply said if one can afford it would you want this type of layout work.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I don't care who builds what, when or why. I like them all. They are a toy, fancy or plain. I don't care if they run on batteries, wind up or are remote controlled by a computer. They are fun to watch and enjoy.

If I want to pay $300 per square foot for a completely out of scale, whimsical layout that is my choice. If I want to pay whatever for a completely to scale layout such as Cincinnati in Motion, that's my choice. If I want to slap down a piece of plywood and screw some track to it and have a ton of fun, that's my choice.

If Dunham want's to make some money offering something for sale and there are buyers that's just dandy. If another outfit wants to do the same thing but they have a different style, that's okay too. Different strokes for different folks.

[Anonymous]

Dennis LaGrua

I didn’t see the other post but if it was similar to what you posted above, I can understand why it disappeared. You have a right to your opinion, but you have misstated facts and made assumptions that are misleading.

Clark Dunham charges between $250 and $350 per square foot not $300-350 as you said. Check out Clark’s website and you’ll also see that he has built extremely realistic layouts with one of a kind scratch built structures, weathering etc. from 17,500 to $110,000.

As other have said, Clark gave Vinnie exactly what he asked for. Just because Vinnie’s layout is not in line with your conception of model railroading, does not give you the right to cast aspersions at Clark Dunham.


Dennis Brennan

[csxt30]

Now, myself, I'm pretty impressed with Vernon Peachy's layouts, also. Plus he has a neat huge bridge that goes up, to walk under!! Boy! A new person can be really inspired by these artists & capture some of that flavor, I think!! Thanks, John

[Anonymous]

Dlagrua expressed his opinion's above and then in closing, he asked for opinions from others on this forum. No more--no less.

While he did criticize Clark Dunham Studios' style of work, all he was asking for was a better understanding as to why some hobbyists may choose to have a very expensive custom built layout built for them that have less realistic and more whimsical themes. Rather than having a layout built that is realistically and prototypically accurate.

I didn't detect any whinning.

Layouts are like women, some like them small, others like them large, some like them with plenty of makeup, others like them plain, some like them with long flowing hair, others like them with short hair, but to me, I like 'em all.

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Anonymous]

Bill read Dennis' second post in this thread. Here's an excerpt:

QUOTE: However, for a "Noted Broadway Scenic Designer" as he is touted, and for the megabucks that he charges, he should be held to a higher standard. Therefore we should expect far bettter in his layouts like hand painted backdrops, scratch built structures and realistic scenery just like they use on Broadway. Where's the "Top notch Broadway" scenic influence in Dunhams creations.? I see the same stuff on Dunham layouts that the basement hobbiest uses (with the exception of his "WIzard of Oz" /Advertising style backdrops) . If you advertise yourself to be the best, then you can charge for it but also be prepared to prove it.

If Dennis had bothered to check out Clark's website he would've seen that Clark does do extremely realistic layouts with one of a kind scratch built structures, weathering etc. from 17,500 to $110,000.

Clark also does hand painted backdrops.

My point is when you make statements like Dennis did about Clark's abilities, you should be pretty darn sure about your facts. Opinions are one thing--facts are another. I have a problem when opinions are stated as facts.

Dennis Brennan

[Anonymous]

I enjoy operating toy trains. The construction of a layout is merely an inconvience and a delaying factor to my enjoyment of the hobby. so I would make a perfect client for someone like Mr. Dunham. Unfortunately, I do not have the income to have him build me a layout. However, since I have to build my own, I wi***o wiew as many layouts as possible regardless of whether they are operated by their builders or by someone who is fortunate enough to have the wherewithal to have someone else do the chores. To those who enjoy building layouts, you should glean as much information from articles about ANY layout, regardless of wether the operator built it or not. We are ALL railroaders. I heve had railroad related experiences that NO AMOUNT OF MONEY COULD RECREATE. I am JEALOUS OF NO ONE. Learn from the pros, I do.

[Anonymous]

Dennis:

I read dlagrua's second post and he's entitled to his opinions.

If you've read diagrua's posts on OGR, I'm sure you've noticed that he's very enthusiastic about modern day pro-Ellison style classic layouts. No doubt that his pro-Ellison enthusiasm has effected his tolerance of any other style of layout.

I'm sure we can agree on one fact and that is to thank CTT for providing this forum as a means to share our ideas and opinions and the opportunity to voice our disagreements in a gentlemanly fashion. Now, that's a fact!

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[FJ and G]

out of sheer curiosity, does the cost include the tracks, trains, wiring, benchwork, etc?

I'm guessing now yes, except for the trains.

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dlagrua

FranK;
I'm not sure that I agree that there is any whining here. LIke other posts I view this as the open exchange of ideas and opinions- no argument as to right or wrong.
Dunham charges $300-$350 per square foot for his creations. Putting this into perspective that's about $10,000 for a 4 x 8' area. If one pays this amount, should you not recieve the best? Then the question becomes since they are charging for the best; is this layout really the best, the Rolls Royce of layouts so to speak.
Perhaps my post should have simply said if one can afford it would you want this type of layout work.

Dennis: My comments were directed at Allan, who was castigating those who took the viewpoint that self-built is best, lableing it as "envy".

I apologize to you and any others who perceived to be otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Bill,

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And yes, I agree with your assessment of Dennis views. I also concur with you about this forum.

Respectfully, however, I do believe you have missed my point.

Dennis Brennan

[Anonymous]

There is no right way to enjoy a hobby. I like to RUN TRAINS, Others like to BUILD LAYOUTS. Fine. Both those who LIKE to build and those (like me) who HAVE to build because of economics can learn a lot by reading about a well built layout. ANY professionally built layout can teach much about building techniques. If I could afford to, my layout would get the chain saw tomorrow to make way for a pro built layout. In the meantime, I like to look at well built layouts, regardless of whether they are owner built or not. That is how you get ideas for your layout regardless of whether you or a professional builds it. and if anyoue doesn't like the way I approach my hobby, THEY, not I have some serious issues to deal with.

[Frank53]

I look at this layout which I believe was built by a fellow across the street and am blown away. I learn from the photos he graciously posts.






or this one:


more:






and dave's fabulous tequila sunrise layout:






just a few of the layouts I have seen - all of which appear to be self built. I'm inspired by this work.

[Anonymous]

Dennis:
You are right. I've been missing the point for 62 years now and I guess it's too late to change. But I'm sure having fun!
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter whether the layouts were built by the operator. I admire the builder's talent and consider the operator a fellow railroader.

[Dr. John]

If a person has the money and inclination, by all means have a custom built layout. It will be ready to run with the wiring and track work bugs (supposedly) ironed out.

My philosophy about layouts is like that about locomotive purchases (see posts about $140 locomotives). I like a hands on approach that allows me to be creative and have fun with a minimum of cost. Used lumber, scrounged or donated wiring, and natural materials for scenery are part of the equation for me.

I greatly admire the work of Dunham and other custom builders. But I would not buy one even if I had the money. It just would not be fun for me.