RE: Non Toxic Smoke

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen
Is there a non toxic liguid for producing smoke. I have just put a 4-6-2 in the basement. After reading the label on the oil, I certainaly do not want to use it in the house.

[Anonymous]

Use Jt's megasteam, makes any smoke unit run MUCH better. www.megasteam.com Its non-toxic and they come in many (about 25) scents.

[Jumijo]

I've been using the Apple Harvest Megasteam for over a month now and I'm not completely sold on it. Sure, it does give off noticably more smoke at first, but it dies out pretty quickly (a few minutes) for me. The Lionel smoke fluid makes decent smoke that lasts 3 times longer and is more consistent in it's volume in my Lionel starter steamer.

Megasteam is good smoke fluid, and smells real purdy, but it doesn't seem to last very long.

Jim

[eZAK]

All smoke fluid is mineral oil based with additives for different smells.
I don't think any of it is toxic, But then again I'm not a lab rat who is breathing it 24/7.

[Anonymous]

Gentlmen
Thank you for your quick reply. For those that believe all smoke is non toxic - read the label ( LGB is the one I purchased )

[nblum]

There is no such thing as completely non-toxic "smoke" as anything that causes this appearance in the air is going to consist of particulates, liquid or solid. This is stuff you don't want to be inhaling into your lungs IMO. How toxic? No one knows. But the less inhaled the better, particularly for children and for adults with respiratory (lung) or heart disease. This is not proven but solely expert medical opinion, and extrapolation by me from what is known about virtually all other liquid or particulate air pollutants. Suffice to say that mineral oil in the lungs is not a good thing in medium to large amounts, and is unlikely to be good for you upon repetitive or prolonged exposure in small amounts.

[palallin]

Water is toxic if you drink enough of it. As long as you don't make ***tails out of the stuff, you're not going to notice it. The labels are a result of morons who do drink it or ninnies who, thinking they've been poisoned by some mean corporation, sue the pants off the maker because they fill their trains rooms with "smoke" and then cough or tear up.

Remember: There is no combustion in the smoke unit. The oils vaporize but do not burn (unless there is a malfunction).

There is, of course, the question of heightened sensitivity to the vapor (not to mention the odor) causing discomfort. This is one reason I refuse to run any MTH on my layout: the smoke output is far too much for my small room. My Lionels produce more than enough to be visible without recreating a London fog.

[Anonymous]

I love a toy train that smokes well; and I like MegaSteam best. It produces lots of smoke, disappates quickly, and the aromas are quite interesting. For example, coffee scent coming from a Lionel roadside diner is very compelling.

However, some of my regular guests and I have chronic sinus trouble. One has asthma. As a result, I run smoke only occasionally, and then only for brief periods, after which I try to ventilate the train room.

It doesn't seem to matter whether the smoke comes from old pellets, new pellets, or liquid -- I have tried them all. But are any of them actually "toxic?" I don't know.

The manufacturers' Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) -- when you can find them -- might give some insight. Personally, I wouldn't injest (swallow) any of these products, and I am cautious about inhaling them even if the result is only an annoying irritation. Plus, we do know that there is a condition called "chemical pneumonia."

People often ask, "Is too much [X] bad for you?" Certainly yes, by definition! The term "too much" connotes an undesireable consequence. But how much is too much? And precisely what are the consequences of "too much" exposure to toy train smoke? I don't know but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

If there are any medical doctors, pulmonary specialists or respiratory therapists on this forum, we might all benefit from hearing from you.

wolverine49

[nblum]

I'm a research physician, familiar with pulmonary (lung) toxicology and the literature on particulate air pollution and its effects on mortality rates in urban settings. I'm a hematologist (blood doctor) but my main research collaborator is head of our lung biology research unit, so I've learned more about lungs than I ever thought I'd know. That's the basis for my comments. My recommendation: do not regularly inhale toy train "smoke" for short or long periods of time. Particularly if you've got heart, lung or blood vessel disease or are a child or teenager. The effect of air pollution on developing lungs appears to be particularly of concern.

[ben10ben]

Not too long ago, in an internet search, I found study of the effects of air-borne terphenyls, which are the primary component of smoke pellets. The study concluded that there were no permanant side effects from the inhalation of terphenyl vapors, and the only temporary promblems reported were eye and sinus irritation when enough was present. Keep in mind, too, that the concentrations in the report were much higher than those normally encountered in train running.

As far as mineral oil smoke, even if you drink it, most of the time you'll be fine. Just be sure you stay near the toilet. LGB smoke is closer to kerosene in composition, so could be slightly more dangerous than standard higher viscosity fluids.

[Kooljock1]

In spite of what Neil states, if you REALLY want to pollute your home, try getting an ozone air purifyer!

It absolutely amazes me that the same people who moan about smog will go to The Sharper Image, and pay alot of money for a machine that creates the very same pollutants right in their own home!

For the record, my daughter suffer from asthma. She has never had an adverse reation to train smoke, however cat dander can send her to the emergency room.

Obviously we should outlaw cats.

Jon [8D]

[nblum]

Hey Jon, I didn't suggest outlawing smoke fluids. I just don't think folks should labor under any illusions that this material has been or could be proven "non-toxic."

And Ben, there are many substances that when swallowed are non-toxic, but when inhaled can be fatal. Two are vomit and mineral oil. No offense intended, but those are the brutal facts.

[ben10ben]

Sorry, Neal. What I intended to say, and should have said, is that mineral oil is not harmful if you ingest it. As I earlier said, drinking a bottle of smoke fluid is totally harmless, but just be sure you stay by the toilet.

I'll leave it to people such as yourself far more educated than I to make the decision about longterm effects of inhalation. For the time being, though, I'm going to keep running my trains and not worry about it. Just like I also don't worry about the lead based paint that my postwar pieces shed when handled too roughly, or the asbestos insulation on the wiring in my transformers.

[Anonymous]

TRAIN SMOKE IS NOT TOXIC TO INHALE.

First of all, I am a lung doctor, and I practice clinical pediatric pulmonary medicine, which means that I actually take care of children and teenagers who have asthma and other chronic lung diseases. Unlike nblum, I do not just work with some lung biology researcher, I actually take care of people who have breathing problems. As far as I can tell, nblum has nothing from the worlds of research or clinical medicine to back up what he has written here. Furthermore, it is irresponsible for a so called scientist to post that type of doom and gloom misinformation. He'd never get away with publishing a scientific paper in a peer-reviewed journal with those kind of unsubstantiated comments. In fact, the more I think about what he posted, the more upset I become. OK, nblum: I want references that SPECIFICALLY back up each and every word that you posted.

The bottom line:
TRAIN SMOKE IS NOT TOXIC TO INHALE.

[nblum]

Are you familiar with the data on animal models of effects of particulates on both cardiac and lung function as well as blood coagulation? The epidemiologic data linking particulates to short term increases in myocardial infarction and mortality in urban populations? I assume you are. Since there are no data on the safety of exposure to mineral oil clouds, why would you assume that the data on particulates are irrelevant to the safety of toy train smoke? Granted this is an extrapolation, but it's a reasonable one in the absence of any safety data whatsoever.

I am giving my best scientific educated guess about the safety of toy train smoke, which is exactly what you are doing in saying it is not toxic to inhale. The burden of proof that inhaling mineral oil vapor is safe falls to you, not to me. I am also invoking the precautionary principle, which as a pediatrician you are no doubt familiar with. Would you knowingly expose young children to mineral oil clouds of unknown safety, repeatedly, without data on safety? Apparently you would. I disagree. Neither of us have conclusive data to support our position, but what data do exist argue for caution, in my opinion.

I know for a fact that several members of our Environmental Medicine department with training similar to yours, and research expertise in the effects of particulates on human health agree with my point of view. These are clinician scientists of international caliber.

I find your charges of irresponsible behavior to be cavalier and irresponsible :). And informed speculation on such issues is routinely published in the scientific literature. My sole purpose is to protect people from potential dangers they may not be aware of. If you find that offensive, perhaps you should recall Ibsen's "An Enemy of the People."

[nblum]

Here's one of many papers on the effects of fine particulates:

Epidemiology. 2004 Nov;15(6):702-8

Fine particulate matter and wheezing illnesses in the first year of life.

Pino P, Walter T, Oyarzun M, Villegas R, Romieu I.

Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Chile, Santiago, Chile. [e-mail]

BACKGROUND: Recent evidence implicates fine particulate matter (PM2.5), principally from vehicular exhaust, as a major cause of increased mortality and morbidity. However, there are limited data on the impact of PM2.5 on infant respiratory illnesses. METHODS: We conducted a cohort study of 504 infants recruited at 4 months of age from primary health care units in southeastern Santiago, Chile. Project physicians followed infants through the first year of life via monthly check-ups and by appointments on demand. We obtained data for fine particulate matter, sulfur dioxide (SO2), and nitrogen dioxide (NO2) from the governmental monitoring network. RESULTS: The most frequent diagnosis during follow-up was wheezing bronchitis, occurring 19.5 times per 100 infants per month. After adjusting for sex, socioeconomic level, family history of asthma, minimum temperature, and number of older siblings, we found that an increase of 10 microg/m of PM2.5 24-hour average was related to a 5% increase (95% confidence interval 0-9%) in the risk for wheezing bronchitis (1-day lag). This association was present for different lags, with a maximum observed for a 9-day lag (9%; 6-12%). No consistent association was detected with NO2 or SO2 ambient levels. Lower socioeconomic status and having older siblings were also associated with the risk of wheezing bronchitis. The association of PM2.5 and wheezing bronchitis was stronger among infants with a family history of asthma than among infants without. CONCLUSIONS: Air pollution in the form of fine particulates, mostly from vehicular exhaust, may adversely affect infants' respiratory health with potential for chronic effects later in life

[nblum]

And the effects on the lung of higher dose mineral oil exposure:

Pediatrics. 1999 Feb;103(2):E19.
Lipoid pneumonia: a silent complication of mineral oil aspiration.

Bandla HP, Davis SH, Hopkins NE.

Department of Pediatrics, Tulane University School of Medicine, New Orleans, Louisiana 70112, USA.

INTRODUCTION: Chronic constipation is a common symptom in pediatrics, and physicians often use mineral oil to treat chronic constipation in children. Mineral oil, a hydrocarbon, may not elicit a normal protective cough reflex and may impair mucociliary transport. These effects can increase the likelihood of its aspiration and subsequent impaired clearance from the respiratory tract. We report a case of a child with neurodevelopmental delay with chronic constipation and a history of chronic mineral oil ingestion presenting as asymptomatic exogenous lipoid pneumonia (ELP). CASE HISTORY: A 6-year-old white boy with a history of developmental delay was found to have an infiltrate in his right upper lobe on a chest radiograph obtained during evaluation for thoracic scoliosis. The patient had a long history of constipation with daily use of mineral oil. He was fed by mouth and had occasional episodes of coughing and choking during feeding. He was asymptomatic at presentation and physical examination was unremarkable. The patient was advised to stop administration of the mineral oil and was treated empirically with antibiotics during a 3-month period. At follow-up examination the patient continued to be asymptomatic, with the radiologic persistence of the infiltrate. Diagnosis of lipoid pneumonia was made by diagnostic bronchoscopy with bronchoalveolar lavage (BAL). The exogenous origin of the lipid in the BAL fluid was confirmed by gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. DISCUSSION: The clinical presentation of ELP is nonspecific and ranges from the totally asymptomatic patient with incidental radiologic finding, like our patient, to the patient with acute or chronic symptoms attributable to pneumonia, pulmonary fibrosis, or cor pulmonale. Bronchoscopy with BAL can be successful in establishing the diagnosis of ELP by demonstration of a high lipid-laden macrophage index. Treatment of ELP in children is generally supportive, with the symptoms and roentgenographic abnormalities resolving within months after stopping the use of mineral oil. CONCLUSION: Lipoid pneumonia as a result of mineral oil aspiration still occurs in the pediatric population. It can mimic other diseases because of its nonspecific clinical presentation and radiographic signs. In patients with swallowing dysfunction and pneumonia, a history of mineral oil use should be obtained and a diagnosis of ELP should be considered in the differential diagnoses if mineral oil use has occurred. Our case points to the need for increased awareness by the general pediatricians of the potential hazards of mineral oil use for chronic constipation.

[nblum]

Bottom line, heavy or frequent exposure to mineral oil mist cannot be claimed to be safe and non-toxic in the absence of ANY data to that effect. Expose yourself and your children or grandchildren at your own risk. I do so, but very sparingly, for the obvious reasons.

[garyseven]

You can agree or disagree, but IMHO - Neil's heart is in the right place, and I think that is what is important. I think he'd rather have us die of very old age rather than a bunch of stuff in the proceeding posts, and you know, that's the kind of doctor I want!
Heck, from time to time, I crank up the smoke, but never around my son. It is up to you what you want to do but I applaud Neil for giving us his "best scientific educated guess." If you are concerned about heart, lung or blood vessel disease you have your information that Neil provided. The risks are up to you. Believe it or not.
Personally I don't know Neil, never met him, and since he lives on the other side of the country, probably never will - but, from the couple of years of reading his posts I have a feeling that if I were sick, I'd want him on my team. I respect him greatly. I have never considered him "irresponsible."

Don't often agree about trains...[;)] but I'm working on that one![:D]
There's my three cents worth...

[cmrj]

guy's i'm an HVAC TECH , I like my smokers too. we eat drink &breath chemistry in one form or another everyday. I highly recamend a fart fan you can get them at your local home improvement center for under 100.00 dollars. let's have fun and play safe. Mike

[nblum]

I agree that an exhaust fan is an excellent idea for a layout room if you're going to use smoke. Minimizes exposure and clears out the room fast when you're done.

[garyseven]

One advantage of having a garage layout: There's no exhaust fan to purchase!

[baltimoretrainworks]

What next?!?!?! Don't solder because it uses lead? It amazes me that people are so paranoid about everything these days. Those labels are for the lawyers because some moron out there will drink it or ingest it somehow and then try to sue the manufacturer when they get sick. Most of us grew up doing all kinds of things that people now are "AMAZED" that we didn't kill ourselves or wind up a bunch of drooling idiots. Lighten up, it's a hobby, don't be stupid but enjoy yourselves!

[superwarp1]

Lead only gets released in the air if it's heated above 800 degrees.. I use JT MegaSmoke. With all my steamers with fan driven smoke units, I can get the basement full of smog.

Gary

[Buckeye Riveter]

[ben10ben]

Baltimoretrainworks,
Believe it or not, but the EU(European Union) is already demanding that all electronics products shipped to them are completely lead free by the middle of next year. This means that it's probably only a matter of time before lead free solder is not available here.

As for me, I've used lead-free solder before, and I hate it. I do, though, regularly use a silver bearing solder which cuts the lead down to 36%, and has a 2% silver content. It's a pleasure to work with. If solder ever becomes totally lead free, most likely I'll buy a couple of cases to last me the rest of my life[:)]

I don't think that anyone can deny that lead is a hazard, especially when used in applications such as a gasoline additive, but that doesn't mean that we should get rid of it everywhere.

[Jim Duda]

[spankybird]

It's hard to top JimBo, but

Spanky says

Too much sex and you die of AIDS,
Too much play and you'll get poor grades.
Too much water and you'll surely drown,
Too many smiles and you'll be a clown.
Too much money will cause some greed,
Too sharp a knife will make you bleed.
Too much of anything is bad for you -
Moderation my friends, might be the clue.

[Anonymous]

You can do everything right and live a boring life and live to 80, an be put in and old folks home and waist away or you can have some fun and live to 75. We all die just how will you use the time between birth and death. And by the way we could all die in a car crash or something else tomorrow. ENJOY YOURSELF!!!

David

[ChiefEagles]

I leave town and my "friends" [????] go wild. I guess I will have to take them down a notch or two. [;)]