Do you think a GANTLET is feasible

[FJ and G]

If you've never seen one, they cram 2 tracks into a multigauge track to get thru a difficult cut or across a bridge.

Here's a model of one:

http://www.gmrrc.org/Photos-JPEGs/Mike_OBrien-JPEGs/Gantlet-Track-joke-620.jpg

I may experiment with doing one. The problem I see is with the 3rd rail. You'd have to have an extra wide one or 2 third rails next to each other and ensure the roller doesn't hit an outer rail.

Dave Vergun

[jkerklo]

Dave, I like it! Sort of a crossover, that doesn't cross.

I don't think strictly mechanical separation of center and outside rails is possible. Rails will need to be electrically switched depending on which track is active.

I think I know where you can find a device to automatically switch the rails. Let me know when you need it.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

John,

I think that the control rails can be spaced much closer together to give clearance for the roller to hit the center rail.

I'd like to do this on a small bridge I'm planning. it will add to the operational excitement, as collisions could result-----and they have on real RRs.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, I believe it is spelled GAUNTLET with a U. In the photo, the seperation between the 2 tracks seemed to be much greater than necessary. There is a way that you could do it with 4 evenly spaced rails. You could use a relay to switch the polarity of the 2 middle rails.

[FJ and G]

Elliot,

3 dictionaries tell me GANTLET.

With 3 rail trains why would you need to switch polarity of the center rails? It's AC.

[jkerklo]

I think you will need to turn OFF one set of outside/center rails so a train in the other track does not short against them, either crossing over the rails or the pickup roller being too close and shorting an outside and center rail.

With electrical switching, and 1/2 gauge spacing, you could also implement it with four rails instead of six.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

I guess that either spelling is acceptable. The spelling thing has been a long running arguement. I guess that the spelling without a U has made it's way into the language.

The track arrangement I am suggesting only uses 4 rails, not 6. The 2 outer rails would always be ground, The 2 inner rails would have to do double duty, and function as both an outer and center rail for both tracks depending on which was in use. The relay would be used to switch the polarity of the inner rails.

[eZAK]

gant*let (g^on'lit) OR gauntlet (g^on'lit) n. A former military punishment in which the offender ran between two lines of me, who struck him with clubs, whips, etc., as he passed.

Now you know where Dave gets it from. [:D]

As Elliot says you could use 4 rails changing the intermost ones from HOT to Neutral depending on which track you use at the time.

Of course this would not be nesessary if you ran trains with out TMCC or DCS.

You could also use 5 rails were each track would share an outside rail.

[lionelsoni]

http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0140.html

If both tracks of the ga(u)ntlet connect elsewhere on the layout, or if using whistles and bells, or if the trains on the two tracks are to be controlled separately, one would probably want the outside rails to be common, which would require the two inner ga(u)ntlet rails to change roles according to which track the train is on. When the gauntlet is on the other hand, however, if none of these conditions apply, no switching would be required.

One other possibility is a 5-rail "near-ga(u)ntlet", in which the two tracks share one outside rail--much simpler electrically.

[FJ and G]

Thanks John, Elliot,

A definite improvement of 4 vice 6 rails. I now see where you are coming from.

Thanks

BTW, gantlet has never been spelled gauntlet. Gauntlets are something Clint Eastwood runs

As I read this, I see Bob and Pat have posted simultaneously. I'm taking your suggestions as well.

I'd rather, btw, run a gantlet than a gauntlet. In the Marine Corps we had to run a gauntlet through a company formation to get our stripes pinned on. I had blood flowing out both sides of my arms when it was over. I never wanted another promotion after that. and almost got my wish.

[spankybird]

Dave,

I think Elliot's idea would be a great switch for you to build

tom

[FJ and G]

OK then, I will try this with 5 rails: 1 center and 4 control rails, two on each side spaced closely together. This ought to be fun. If it doesn't work, no harm done. Bet this will be the first 3-rail gantlet ever done or ever even thought about being done.

The most dreaded place on the layout will be the gantlet!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually, the 5 rail proposal is the simplest. Here's a diagram of what each idea would look like.

[FJ and G]

Elliot, The 6 rail definitely would be a problem w/rollers. The 4 rail would work but would need the added work of frogs. The 5 rail is the most elegant solution to the puzzle and would only need the toe of the frog (minus the heel). I see now with the diagram (better than a description), that there would be 2 center rails and sharing of one outside rail. Now it all makes perfect sense and looks fairly easy to execute.

I'm using DCS. Will the 5 rail arrangement present any electrical problems that might need to be resolved?

I got the perfect place for the gantlet. Instead of punching 2 holes in the drywall, run a gantlet thru one hole (for the turnaround loop to the next room. A perfect solution!

[Big_Boy_4005]

The 5 rail, or "poor man's gauntlet" is really not a gauntlet in the strictest sense, as it has no frogs. It is almost a "no brainer". Bring the two tracks together, and blend the outside rails. There is no actual frog, because the flanges of the wheels never have to cross a rail. Electrically, there are no conflicts, and command control is not affected.

Conversely, the 6 rail version is most complicated from the trackwork perspective. It requires 3 frogs on each end. Because of how tightly things need to be spaced, it may require electrical intervention in the form of a relay, anyway, just to keep things from shorting.

The 4 rail is a real compromise. It uses a single frog at each end. The relay was a part of the deal from the start, and could control the frog power as well.

Also note the compactness of the 3 concepts. The 6 rail will be the smallest in width, followed by the 4 rail, then the 5 rail. As the space is decreased, the difficulty is inceased.

[jkerklo]

Elliot, thanks for the diagrams. Very simple way to describe and determine complexity
of each scheme.

Dave, you have to do the six rail. It is by far the best proof of your expert track laying skills.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Roger Bielen]

Why bother? Use a single track fed by a "Y" switch at each end. I'm sure there is a way to wire a non-derailing feature that throws the paired switch for a given route.

[Anonymous]

Gantlet appears to be the correct spelling for shared railroad crossings. See
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/gantlet
and
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/0140.html

Also, the image shown does not look right! Looking at it more closely, I noticed the image is named Gantlet-Track-joke-620.jpg [:D]

Daniel Lang

[Kooljock1]

The Rutland and the Central Vermont shared a bridge across the top of Lake Champlain with gantlet tracks. There were no spectacular wrecks that I'm aware of.

But during the grade crossing elimination project on the Long Island Railroad, they used a gantlet track at Rockville Centre to save space. Two high speed, packed commuter trains tried to use said track at the same time in 1950, resulting in an horrific crash.

The way I sometimes run my railroad with a CAB-1 in one hand, and a Grey Goose Martini with a twist in the other...I have to think that a gantlet track would be a bad idea.

Jon [8D]

[FJ and G]

Daniel,

I'm glad you settled the spelling once and for all. With all these salty railroaders on this forum, I'm very surprised that no one else has jumped in to confirm the word.

I guess that shows that there aren't too many gantlets left.

Jon,

I think I heard about that one and a more recent accident. The Port wine I sip ought to make me sober enough to run the gantlet, but my little engineer will eventually get uclers.

Roger B,

The advantage of a gantlet is that there are no moving parts. Of course the Y is better for routing, but it all depends on the objectives of the little railroad.

Elliot,

Thanks for the diagram, that really shows it clearly. I'm amazed that there aren't any real pictures of gantlets on the Internet (at least the first 7 or 8 pages I browsed in Google).

--------

OK, another modeler found a photo (not too good of a photo) of a gantlet near Roselle Park Station on NJT Raritan Line, which allows freights to clear the station platform. You can make out the 2 rails on the left side, spaced surprisingly rather far apart.
http://www.thebluecomet.com/cr3212rosellepark.jpg

[Big_Boy_4005]

You're welcome for the diagram Dave (and John K.), I enjoy drawing things like that, to aid discussions like this.

I finally got my copy of CTT, and see where all of this came from.

Sorry about the spelling thing. I see from all of the sources, that either spelling is correct. Personally, I will always spell it with a U, for 2 reasons. First, it tends to make the pronunciation and meaning more obvious, as Spacemouse proved over on the MR forum. Second, from an etymological perspective, the French word predates the existance of trains by hundreds of years.

Truth is, the railroad term is almost part of history. Another hundred years, and no one will remember what a gauntlet track was.[swg]

[Anonymous]

Big Boy, I know you hate to admit when you're wrong. But you are in this case.

In Railroad terms, the spelling is GANTLET, and it will remain Gantlet, whether or not you wi***o be correct. You can use gauntlet perfectly fine for the situations that term describes. Many words have similar spellings, but decribe different things. "Sea" and "see," for example.

Railroaders have been known to invent the occasional word, or modify one. Why don't you check out the etymology of the word "caboose" for an example.

If you're going to continue with the improper spelling and pronunciation, you might as well call the locomotive cab the pilot house. Real railroaders might laugh you out of the roundhouse if you use "gauntlet" to describe the track arrangement discussed in this thread.

[bogaziddy]

From the looks of the picture, that Santa Fe man is headed for the ditch ... Let's hope the engineer has Job Insurance because some overzealous official will hold an investigation and make him run the gauntlet ... or gantlet ... or whatever.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Fine Steve, I'M WRONG. Are you happy??? It was nice of you to join in the conversation and be so helpful. Frankly, since I don't have one of these track features on my layout, and never will, I run little risk of further embarassment. The word is pronounced the same either way, so as long as I don't write it, nobody in the roundhouse will know how stupid I really am.

[Buckeye Riveter]

News Article 1,
January 18, 1993
In the first passenger fatal accident since 1909, Train 7 from Chicago runs a red signal on the western approach to the Gauntlet Bridge, goes into emergency stop, and pauses for 5 to 30 seconds before being hit by Train 12 from South Bend. The lead cars, Car 27 Eastbound and Car 36 Westbound, slice into each other killing 7 passengers in Car 36, including a 10 year old boy. Most of the victims were decapitated. There were initial reports of 70 or 65 injured. (A 1998 TV report claimed 150 injured in a story about a lawsuit, as well as reporting an eighth passenger death from injuries sustained in the crash, but this report is not supported by other media.) A signal prior to the signal run had been reported defective in prior weeks, however the Gauntlet signals were working properly. A second bridge has now been added at the site and the Gauntlet is no longer in operation. The engineer of Train 7 was the dispatcher in the 1985 accident. NO CRIMINAL CHARGES WERE FILED, but both engineers were fired.

Story Article 2
Our next station is a flag stop, Clark Road. We're now in the city of Gary, IN. Just past this station, we come to the Old Gauntlet Bridge. It is so-named because of a fatal head-on crash between two commuter trains that occurred there in 1993. Seven people died. One engineer ran a stop signal, and the two trains collided on the bridge, which takes the South Shore Line over both NS and CSX tracks. The problem here with the gauntlet track was that it was for opposing directions. After the crash, the federal government found some funding to build a second bridge, so that the tracks in each direction could be separated.

Web source 1
http://www.rrb.gov/funfacts3.html

Web source 2
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/gantlet

Web source 3
Gantlet track
A gantlet track (in British and Australian English: gauntlet, or gauntleted, track) refers to the situation where tracks converge onto a single roadbed and are interlaced to pass through a narrow passage such as a cut, bridge, or tunnel. A switch frog at each end allows the two tracks to overlap, and the four rails run parallel through the passage on the same crossties (sleepers) and separate again at the other end. Gantlet tracks are commonly used when a rail line's capacity is increased with the addition of an additional track, but cost or other factors prevent the widening of the bridges. Since there are no points or other moving parts in a gantlet track, a train operating on one of the tracks cannot be routed onto the other. Because two trains cannot use the gantlet at the same time, scheduling and block signals must allow for this restriction.
A gantlet track can also be used when two railroads of different gauges share right-of-way; the standard-gauge Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad used the wide-gauge Erie Railroad's tunnel through the New Jersey Palisades in this way before the DL&W built its own tunnel.
The term is derived not from gauntlet meaning a type of glove, but from the expression running the gauntlet, which means running between two confining rows of adversaries.

When I have been around people talking about the crashes described above their pronounciation begins with a gau, which I assume they picked up off of the radio and TV coverage at the time.

A Mud Hen

[Jim Duda]

Gauntlet or Gantlet?...who cares?
It's how the train that runs on it fares.
Whether day or dark night
The squeeze will be tight!
Caveat Pilotor - Let the engineer bewares... (wink)

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Buck, this spelling thing has been like a metal splinter, and has stuck with me all afternoon. I suspect that the deeper we dig, the more examples we will find of both spellings referring to the track feature. I was actually surprised to find the spelling without the U in the dictionary on my desk. Indeed, it was only used for railroading.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I was working in Gary, Indiana between 1980 to 1985 on the Indiana Toll Road. We were builiding new interchanges and that is when I saw the Gauntlet Bridge over the NS and Chessie (CSX now). I thought it was the strangest thing I had ever seen, but you would see the South Shore Train stop at the signal and then the other train would arrive and cross the bridge. The train wreck was in 1993 after I had moved to Ohio.

While I was working in the REGION, the South Shore Train hit a steel truck at Burns Harbor. What a mess! Also, the Calumet Ave Bridge collapsed killing, I believe 14 workmen.

I was glad to leave for a safer area.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Actually, the 5 rail proposal is the simplest. Here's a diagram of what each idea would look like.

I like the 4-rail design. It makes it a bit more challenging! [:D]

What you can do is use 2 relays. Connect the coil of the 1st relay between the track hot and the 1st switched rail. Connect the NO contacts of the 1st relay between the track hot and the 2nd switched rail. Likewise, connect the coil of the the 2nd relay between the track hot and the 2nd switched rail. Connect the NO contacts of the 2nd relay between the track hot and the 1st switched rail. The frog can be isolated to avoid shorts. When a train enters the gantlet, it will ground one of the switched rails through the wheels, activate the relay and power the other switched rail for the pickup rollers.

Daniel Lang

[jkerklo]

Would a prototype railroad ever share rails like in the 4-rail or 5-rail diagram? Seems sharing rails would cause construction/maintenance problems.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com