Trains.com

Why did Lionel win?

4507 views
37 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2013
  • 643 posts
Posted by smokey1 on Saturday, March 13, 2021 8:34 AM

If you look at the HO scale ( the scale items with the decoder and all in them) they're just as expensive as the Lionel/MTH trains are with their control system. Or very close. just as I've O gauge over $1000 I have seen HO that was compatible in detail and all just as expensive.

  • Member since
    January 2009
  • From: Maryland
  • 12,897 posts
Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Saturday, March 13, 2021 8:31 AM

Lithonia Operator

I think the reason HO has proven to be the most popular is that you can have so much more layout in a given space.

Also, it seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that HO began as a scale gauge; I'm not aware of any toy HO.

And you can get so much more bang for the buck. Plus the sheer amount of HO stuff that rapidly became available; not just trains, but all the structures, scenery materials, etc. And unlike N, you get trains and accessories that are big enough to really appreciate. If I were going to build a layout, it would be HO. Well, if I was a zillionaire, and could have a warehouse for the layout and some hired help, I'd have S scale (not toy).

 

Ho ultimately won because:

1- It can be a toy or a scale model - lots of HO guys consider basic starter set HO stuff "toys", always have always will.

2- To that first point, it is big enough to make a good scale model, big enough to operate as a toy with some minimum skill/setup, but small enough to get more in. That is important to the scale model side in that proportions to real life are closer and more visually appealing.

I'm starting a new layout, I will be filling 1500 sq ft with HO, large curves (36" minimum radius) close coupled passenger cars with working diaphragms, realisticly long trains (freight trains typically 35-45 cars), deep scenery for better realism (3-4 feet in most cases, deeper in a few).

I would need a small warehouse sized space to do that in O scale or even S.

3- Cost, model trains have never been a poor persons hobby, but HO is reasonably affordable even for a large/medium sized layout.

And in the last two or three decades, HO quality vs price makes it cheaper adjusted for inflation than it has ever been.

Non Flyer/scale model S gauge is very nice and great for detail - space and money are the key....

OK, so model trains and toy trains converge, but they are separate hobbies. And then there are endless variations of those hobbies within each.

Everybody finds their own interest in this stuff, everybody is different. I respect and even understand the three rail/flyer side of the hobby, I worked in hobby shops selling trains of all sorts starting at age 14.

But I have never really owned a LIONEL train, except what I bought for my son as a child. I did not have LIONEL as a child.

My father was a holiday model railroader in HO, every Christmas he set a 5' x18' HO layout, until we had a basement, then it became a permanent model railroad that was handed over to me around age 11, in 1968. 

By age 14 I worked in a hobby shop, by age 16 I was a member of a well known model railroad club (I was the only junior member), by age 20 I was the train department manager of a second hobby shop.

For me it has always been about scale models, I was building wooden freight car kits at age 12.

The product revolution in the last 30 years has changed HO. It is now possible to be a "collector", "layout builder", "casual train guy", more so than ever before, without having to build the actual trains.

Before 1980 or so, they was very little HO Ready to Run of both good mechanical quality and good detail/accuracy.

Clearly not the case today.

So this has changed the HO hobby, attracted people who are not "craftsman builders" in the old sense, and it have splintered HO into more different groups or types of modelers.

These product revolutions have also given the "craftsman builders" the opportunity to build bigger, better layouts and allows them to be more "well rounded" in all aspects of the hobby if they desire to.

Yes, some of us take it all kind of seriously, which is fine as long as you respect those who are more "casual".

Those of you interested in O guage may be surprised at the number of HO modelers NOT using DCC, NOT interested in sound, STILL building locomotives and rolling stock, and NOT planning to change their view of the hobby.

So just a few images - my new track plan for my layout, about 30' x 40'

 

The kind of scale operating detail that makes me an HO modeler:

The new layout will have wireless throttles, working CTC and signals. It will stage 30 trains, and allow 10 trains to operate at the same time, supporting an opps session crew of 12-16.

It will not have sound or DCC........

Sheldon

    

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • 643 posts
Posted by smokey1 on Saturday, March 13, 2021 8:30 AM

Actually back when HO started it had a wider Diameter than O/O27. O was 31" O27 was 27" and if I remember correctly HO was somewhere around 34". 

And just my point of view, but you will find most HO people consider somewhere around 90% of all Bachmann and Tyco trains to be toy-like. As they are. They are not the scale trains most of them want. 

  • Member since
    May 2019
  • 1,768 posts
Posted by MMLDelete on Saturday, March 13, 2021 7:37 AM

I think the reason HO has proven to be the most popular is that you can have so much more layout in a given space.

Also, it seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that HO began as a scale gauge; I'm not aware of any toy HO.

And you can get so much more bang for the buck. Plus the sheer amount of HO stuff that rapidly became available; not just trains, but all the structures, scenery materials, etc. And unlike N, you get trains and accessories that are big enough to really appreciate. If I were going to build a layout, it would be HO. Well, if I was a zillionaire, and could have a warehouse for the layout and some hired help, I'd have S scale (not toy).

  • Member since
    June 2013
  • 643 posts
Posted by smokey1 on Saturday, March 13, 2021 1:10 AM

1 thing O/O27 can do a reverse loop without special wiring. As for size maybe but then HO is more popular than O/O27 is today. ( they now have kits to do what is necessary for a reverse loop) All this is just a guess

  • Member since
    December 2017
  • 2,671 posts
Why did Lionel win?
Posted by Lithonia Operator on Friday, March 12, 2021 11:27 PM

I'm not a usual poster here. I have my American Flyer train from my childhood displayed on a shelf. That is the extent of my involvement with toy trains or model trains. I do love my train, though!

I've never understood how Lionel, with THREE RAILS, for Pete's sake, prevailed over American Flyer, which is so much more realistic.

My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it? Back in the 50s, most Americans thought bigger was better.

But three rails??? I just don't get it.

Still in training.


Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month