The way I see it Lionel O gauge won over American Flyer S gauge because they invested in and did a much better job of marketing (advertising) and selling. Let's not forget that back in the day, trains were mostly childrens toys. Lionel printed thousands of catalogs every year and saturated the market with them. The less afluent American Flyer just couldn't keep up and their line of Erector sets was losing popularity at the same time. IMO, Flyer was more realistic but that wasn't the selling point during that period
May have missed the reference to 63 and 73, but working from home at 76 yrs old during pandemic has allowed me to use what would be idle time between bid requests at the office to work on my new layout. I use a laptop with a VPN connection to my office which I carry down stairs to my train room. My outlook email tells me when a new request arrives, and I go back upstairs. The major point I wish to make is that I know although I am quite healthy, I am getting toward the end! Will I finish? (Also, how many more years will I be able to fly from New Jersey to Michigan for football weekends, enjoying the season tickets I just bought 5 years ago?) The clock tick--get To It!Not a Downer--just being realistic.
This is fascinating! So much history. The original question being" why 3 rails.", and this answer is that it was grandfathered in from the early days, and became the de facto standard for 0. New products needed to be useable on the existing track system, and so it perpetuates to this day. It works extremely well, but takes an " eye adjustment ".
Flyer made a fantastic product, but Marx and everything else operates on the 3 rail. Not to take anything away from Flyer, but an incompatible track system. That's hard to overcome.
Paul
Captaincog [...] 2. S gauge is more to scale and has a unique charm with the steam engines that smore and chuff along with running a long time with no worries.
[...]
2. S gauge is more to scale and has a unique charm with the steam engines that smore and chuff along with running a long time with no worries.
Your layout makes 'Smores???
As the song says:
"Tell me more, tell more!"
arkadyLionel trains appeared at the very beginning of the last century, so by the time Flyer S gauge was introduced in the postwar period, two entire generations had been raised to think that "toy train" was just an alternate spelling of "Lionel." Lionel trains were very much a part of American culture at that time, and, to a certain extent, they still are.
I think this is an excellent overview of the O gauge market. Plus, the OP may not be familiar with Amerian Flyer, who produced 3 rail O equipment prewar. It was not until AC Gilbert bought the company and introduced their S line.
smokey1 Oops put my foot in my mouth on that one. But I believe it was used mainly as a point they now have kits for doing the reverse loop thing.
Oops put my foot in my mouth on that one. But I believe it was used mainly as a point they now have kits for doing the reverse loop thing.
Well, if you use DCC, yes, reverse loops are automated.
I don't use DCC, I use a very advanced system of DC Cab Control that provides wireless throttles, walk around control, one touch route selection, CTC, ATC (auto train stop if you run a red signal) and detection with full working signals. I designed and built it myself.
My reverse loops are only semi automatic, but very easy to use. And the layout only uses two reverse loop sections, one of which is actually a wye.
Sheldon
Lithonia Operator I'm not a usual poster here. I have my American Flyer train from my childhood displayed on a shelf. That is the extent of my involvement with toy trains or model trains. I do love my train, though! I've never understood how Lionel, with THREE RAILS, for Pete's sake, prevailed over American Flyer, which is so much more realistic. My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it?
I'm not a usual poster here. I have my American Flyer train from my childhood displayed on a shelf. That is the extent of my involvement with toy trains or model trains. I do love my train, though!
I've never understood how Lionel, with THREE RAILS, for Pete's sake, prevailed over American Flyer, which is so much more realistic.
My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it?
No, it's not.
Back in the 50s, most Americans thought bigger was better.
No, "most"of them didn't. If you're going to try to stereotype an entire decade, you're always going to misunderstand the issue.
But three rails??? I just don't get it.
I never knew anyone who was counting rails when making a train purchase for their kids. The real point is that Lionel had a huge lead on Flyer, and by the time S scale made its appearance, that lead had become unassailable.
Lionel trains appeared at the very beginning of the last century, so by the time Flyer S gauge was introduced in the postwar period, two entire generations had been raised to think that "toy train" was just an alternate spelling of "Lionel." Lionel trains were very much a part of American culture at that time, and, to a certain extent, they still are.
Nor did Lionel stand still. Their trains underwent a significant downsizing, from Standard Gauge to O Gauge. And before WWII, they were even testing the O Scale waters.
My own father was an American Flyer salesman for a time, so I'm not unacquainted with S scale's attractive features. I once heard it said that maybe instead of Standard, O, HO and N scales, we should have started with 1/32 and descended to S and TT scales. It's not an unreasonable idea. But the point is, in this world, we didn't. Lionel established the dominance of O gauge early on, leaving S/Flyer eternally playing catchup ball.
It's my personal opinion that Flyer's biggest failing was in coming much too late to the party. Had S gauge had a significant presence in the Thirties, I believe they'd still be a major force in the hobby world today. But AC Gilbert's S scale Flyer line didn't appear until the postwar period, when the toy train market as a whole was just beginning to (if you'll pardon the expression) lose steam. Both Lionel and Flyer were dwindling rapidly by 1955, but Flyer had much, much more to lose in a shrinking train market.
V8Vega I am always amazed about huge layouts I read about in the magazines and what Sheldon has planned. I can't even get my much more modest layout anywhere near finished. Will you have help I think most with such big layouts do. Just the wiring would frighten me away. Those who have layouts like that must spend every spare moment working on it. If ever even some scenery keeping it clean would take a bunch of time.
I am always amazed about huge layouts I read about in the magazines and what Sheldon has planned. I can't even get my much more modest layout anywhere near finished. Will you have help I think most with such big layouts do. Just the wiring would frighten me away. Those who have layouts like that must spend every spare moment working on it. If ever even some scenery keeping it clean would take a bunch of time.
Well, I do have some friends nearby in the hobby who may help at some point. I am an experianced master carpenter and retired electrican by trade, so building bench work and wiring is pretty natural for me.
I am 63 and have been in the hobby since age 10, and this is not the first large layout I have built, or helped others build.
I expect it will take a year or two to get the benchwork and primary track in place for the whole layout, but it can be built and operated in sections, allowing one to enjoy all aspects of the hobby as it progresses.
Much of the track, turnouts, electrical equipment and such is already on hand, as is a large collection of rolling stock, locomotives, and structures. Construction will begin as soon as a small bathroom remodeling project is completed upstairs, should be in the next few weeks.
Time, well now that we live in a smaller house (with a bigger train room than before), and I have much less to take care of, I am having more and more time for the hobby.
PS - I should add, that while my 1500 sq ft space is no doubt a big project, there are a number of well known layouts, and some not so well known, in this region particularly, that are much larger than mine will be. Many of which I have had the privledge of visiting.
In this part of the country most houses have basements, and large ranch style houses have large basements....... It is kind of a model railroad heaven in that regard.
smokey1 my question is why did HO even get into this topic. It wasn't even mentioned in the original topic. This was a question about American Flyer vs Lionel, not HO. HO should never been brought into this topic, Another topic hijack by someone that shouldn't even make a comment.
my question is why did HO even get into this topic. It wasn't even mentioned in the original topic. This was a question about American Flyer vs Lionel, not HO. HO should never been brought into this topic, Another topic hijack by someone that shouldn't even make a comment.
Really?
You brought it up in your very first post? And the original poster responded about HO in is second post, early in the thread.
So now you are unhappy because I said something you don't like about MTH?
It's the truth, his HO stuff is not fully compatible with the rest of the HO hobby.
You guys in O are welcome to be happy with all these different proprietary systems and products that don't interchange, but HO is a different world in that regard.
Just to give you a better underatanding, an MTH locomotive will not run correctly on my DC powered layout, yet every other brand will, or is easily back converted so it will.
Every estimate or survey suggests that somwhere between 40% and 50% of HO modelers still use DC power and have not embraced onboard sound - yet Mike Wolf and Bob Grubba thumb their noses at that part of the market by only offering locos with DCC and sound.
Flintlock76 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I could be wrong, but Mike Wolf retired partly because his HO move was a mistake. No, that's not the reason, nor impending bankruptcy or any other kind of business disaster. A fellow club member knows him quite well and told me the reason but swore me to secrecy. Suffice to say I understand and agree with his reason.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I could be wrong, but Mike Wolf retired partly because his HO move was a mistake.
No, that's not the reason, nor impending bankruptcy or any other kind of business disaster. A fellow club member knows him quite well and told me the reason but swore me to secrecy. Suffice to say I understand and agree with his reason.
Well, I did not mean to imply impending business failure, more that the industry was changing again and he felt it was the right time.
Whatever his reasons, his move into HO may or maynot have been a business success, but inside the HO community there is no overwhelming enthusiasm for his products or his method of marketing.
HO is built on compatibility between brands, DCS failed that test.
HO also has a long history of "friendly" competition, the original owners of Athearn and Model Die Casting had lunch together once a month, did tooling work for each other and their product lines barely overlaped.
In more recent times the two people behind Proto2000 at Life Like and Spectrum at Bachmann 30 years ago were friends who started out working together in the same train store in Baltimore. Those product lines had little overlap.
For decades Athearn sold their products unassembled to small specialty companies who did less popular roadnames, etc.
Mike Wolf and Bob Grubba of Broadway Limited, both coming from O gauge backgrounds, have been cut throat and aggressive, with each other and towards others, not well recieved by many in HO.
I'll keep an eye out to watch your progress.
When I used to do music, years ago, I was always struck by the thought that everyone starts with the same tools( the instruments). It's what you you do with them that makes the difference!
And so it is with model trains, as well...
ATLANTIC CENTRALI could be wrong, but Mike Wolf retired partly because his HO move was a mistake.
Postwar Paul Sheldon, I just wanted to say that looks like it will be a great layout! What is interesting to me is purpose: your design has incorporated a social aspect, allowing for friends to come over for operating sessions.So the design is tailored for individual wants/ needs.We all have our priorities! Very nice. I run HO also,as well as everything else under the sun... Paul
Sheldon,
I just wanted to say that looks like it will be a great layout! What is interesting to me is purpose: your design has incorporated a social aspect, allowing for friends to come over for operating sessions.So the design is tailored for individual wants/ needs.We all have our priorities!
Very nice. I run HO also,as well as everything else under the sun...
Thank you for the kind words. In addition to supporting group operating sessions, the layout will also allow five mainline trains to run on dedicated display loops.
One important goal was a layout to do all three, group sessions, display running, and single operator.
I have been involved with operational groups since my earliest days in the hobby. In fact, the layout my father buikd for me when I was 10 actually had hidden staging sidings for more operational interest.
I am a very focused modeler, I only have HO, and I don't "collect" anything that does not fit the layout theme.
Glad you found it interesting, I hope to get started on benchwork in a month or so. I have a thread on the Model Railroader side where I explained the theme and tracked the design process. I will be posting the construction progress as well.
CaptaincogLionel somehow nailed it. I love them all but Lionel did that part the best IMHO.
There's something else Lionel nailed, maybe they meant to, maybe they didn't, but let me tell you about it.
I was running a post-war 224 and shooting video of it. When I played the disc I could hear a whooshing "hiss" coming from the little engine that sounded like live steam! Louder as it got closer, quieter as it rolled away, but there just the same. Strange, I couldn't hear it but the camera's microphone did!
I can't help but wonder if that subliminal steam sound is part of Lionel's attraction?
And that 2055 Hudson is a classic! Runs like a thoroughbred and pulls like a Clydesdale!
Now that I have had American Flyer S gauge in a layout for a little over a year compared to my O gauge layout which is been up for 11 years and my Standard Gauge layout which is now 3 years old here are my observations:
1. Standard Gauge is impressive, shiny, heavy, and has a retro feel nothing else does, not even the tinplate prewar O gauge.
2. S gauge is more to scale and has a unique charm with the steam engines that smore and chuff along with running a long time with no worries. The early diesel engines, once I clean and tune them, are the smoothest of any toy train engine I have operated. The electronic flatulence that is supposed to be the horn and whistle is strange but fun. In researching and replacing my father's childhood set it turns out he had a 314AW which does have an air whiste and these are wonderful steam engines.
3. Lionel. My childhoon favorite seeing as I was given a 2055 to get running using old track and an old KW transformer as a kid. I love all things mechanical and the Lionel engines are noisy, greay, oily, and have that gearhead appeal to me. They smell of oil and not in a bad way. The new ones have all of the electronics which was my first foray into command control so TMCC/Legacy is my first learn with DCS learned later. This is why Lionel won.
Back in our last vacation in 2018, due to pandemics and such, my wife and I made our first trip to York and did the shows along with some museum visits. We went to the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum. When one walks into the lobby it is nice. When one walks into the area where the engines are on display that same oil smell is in the air.
Lionel somehow nailed it. I love them all but Lionel did that part the best IMHO.
Founding member of the All Aboard Fastrackers! See us at: www.allaboardfastrackers.com
ATLANTIC CENTRALI was once tempted to go into true two rail 1/4" scale, then I realized I would likely never have the space or the money to build what really interests me - a big busy Class I railroad with big curves and long trains..........but in HO, I can.
Oh yeah, especially the money when it comes to O gauge two-rail scale. The diesels aren't too bad, usually not too much more than the three-rail models, but the steamers! AY-YI-YI!!!
Saw some at a Greenberg show, I'm surprised I didn't have a heart attack!
But you are oh-so-right Sheldon, toy trains, model trains, N though G gauge it's a big tent with lots of joy inside!
Flintlock76 Lithonia Operator I'm not a usual poster here. I have my American Flyer train from my childhood displayed on a shelf. That is the extent of my involvement with toy trains or model trains. I do love my train, though! I've never understood how Lionel, with THREE RAILS, for Pete's sake, prevailed over American Flyer, which is so much more realistic. My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it? Back in the 50s, most Americans thought bigger was better. But three rails??? I just don't get it. Welcome to the fun side of the tracks L-O! Glad to see you here! One of the reasons Lionel came out on top, if not the main reason, was agressive marketing, Lionel's trains were good, but not necessarily better, than anyone elses. The firm's founder, Joshua Lionel Cowen was an absolute master at marketing and promotion and had a bit of the showman about him as well. This occured long before S gauge showed up, it started back around the WW1 era when Lionel was the new kid on the block compared to Ives, Voltamp, Bing, and other toy train makers. By the time of WW2 Lionel was the absolute master of the toy train field and held it right to the end of the 1950's when interest in toy trains began to slip. As you know, American Flyer S gauge showed up post-war, but despite an excellent product line they just never could catch up to Lionel. Bigger vs. better. You know, when I was a kid I had Lionels, then my friends started getting HO train sets. Those HO sets left me cold, they just didn't have the floor-shaking presence the Lionels did in addition to derailing constantly. In all fairness they were probably cheap sets but first impressions are strong ones so I've never developed an interest in HO of any kind. Even at train shows when HO clubs have set-ups I'll give them a cursory look but that's all, they just don't interest me at all. I admit it, it's unfair as hell, but the odd thing in I'll eyeball the heck out of the N gauge displays! Don't ask, I can't figure myself out on that either. And I enjoy the S gauge club layouts too! Growing up, I didn't know anyone with American Flyers so was never exposed to them. So, WHEN are you gonna get that American Flyer off the shelf and run it? That's what it was made for!
Lithonia Operator I'm not a usual poster here. I have my American Flyer train from my childhood displayed on a shelf. That is the extent of my involvement with toy trains or model trains. I do love my train, though! I've never understood how Lionel, with THREE RAILS, for Pete's sake, prevailed over American Flyer, which is so much more realistic. My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it? Back in the 50s, most Americans thought bigger was better. But three rails??? I just don't get it.
My guess has always been that O beat S simply because it was bigger. Is that the gist of it? Back in the 50s, most Americans thought bigger was better.
Welcome to the fun side of the tracks L-O! Glad to see you here!
One of the reasons Lionel came out on top, if not the main reason, was agressive marketing, Lionel's trains were good, but not necessarily better, than anyone elses. The firm's founder, Joshua Lionel Cowen was an absolute master at marketing and promotion and had a bit of the showman about him as well.
This occured long before S gauge showed up, it started back around the WW1 era when Lionel was the new kid on the block compared to Ives, Voltamp, Bing, and other toy train makers. By the time of WW2 Lionel was the absolute master of the toy train field and held it right to the end of the 1950's when interest in toy trains began to slip.
As you know, American Flyer S gauge showed up post-war, but despite an excellent product line they just never could catch up to Lionel.
Bigger vs. better. You know, when I was a kid I had Lionels, then my friends started getting HO train sets. Those HO sets left me cold, they just didn't have the floor-shaking presence the Lionels did in addition to derailing constantly. In all fairness they were probably cheap sets but first impressions are strong ones so I've never developed an interest in HO of any kind. Even at train shows when HO clubs have set-ups I'll give them a cursory look but that's all, they just don't interest me at all.
I admit it, it's unfair as hell, but the odd thing in I'll eyeball the heck out of the N gauge displays! Don't ask, I can't figure myself out on that either.
And I enjoy the S gauge club layouts too!
Growing up, I didn't know anyone with American Flyers so was never exposed to them.
So, WHEN are you gonna get that American Flyer off the shelf and run it? That's what it was made for!
Yes, minimally supervised children under 12 or so, LIONEL is much better than HO.
When my son was 6, we bought bunk beds for his room, put him on the top to sleep, and built him an O-27 Kline layout on the bottom bunk.
He handled them very well right from the start.
HO works great with carefully attached track and good equipment on a stable base with hands of suitable dexterity - 10 or 12 years old. Anything less than that is failure.
RTR HO 40 or 60 years ago was questionable in the "good equipment" department - some was, much was not.
For most people in HO, it is in some way about the "accurate scale model" thing. For me they don't all have to be the most accurate, detailed, fine scale models, but they need to have the right proportions to themselves and their surroundings.
I was once tempted to go into true two rail 1/4" scale, then I realized I would likely never have the space or the money to build what really interests me - a big busy Class I railroad with big curves and long trains..........but in HO, I can.
My father started out with American Flyer in the mid 50's, switched to HO about the time I came along.
Again, the very things that attract some are what turn others off, toy and model trains, a very large and diverse tent......
There are those who might argue that the sight of the third rail causes endorphins to be released, bringing on experiences of sheer bliss...
But I do believe Flyer S gauge is the" Goldilocks Scale", not too big, not too small, just right!They were on to something! And their steamers look so darn cool chugging around the track!
But for myself, I like postwar Lionel and American Flyer together. They compliment each other. Each one has something the other doesn't have: Flyer's great smoke and Choo-Choo, and Lionel's air whistle. I'm sure the air whistle must have seemed quite magical, and High Tech in the pre-war days. I am still amazed even today. The mellow tones produced by the air whistle are pleasing to the ear, and beats anything produced digitally, even today!
I would also submit that the person in an apartment running N scale is having just as much joy as the person running G gauge in the backyard. It usually just comes down to the amount of space available, and the budget to work with.
As for the third rail, the eyes become blind to it eventually....
Smokey,
One last thought or two, for about 25 years now, Bachmann is no longer just a "train set" grade HO company.
Yes, they are still the big player in starter sets, but they offer products at all levels for modelers of all types.
Many of the steam locos I posted above are Bachmann Spectrum line products, very accurate, great running, well detailed, and yes fragile scale models.
Tyco is long gone, but what remains of it is now at LIONEL, for their next failure in HO.
They don't do well in HO because they don't understand the different appeal or mind set, even on the "train set" side of HO.
smokey1 The bottom line today is what you like. You can do as detail or non-detail as you want in any scale. Me I have too much invested in O to go to HO. And there is still a lot that runs conventional in O, but you normally don't hear about that. It seems what you hear about it seems to be the $1000 engines and all. ( not for me, I see that as just bragging,) I have a couple of engines that are probably around $600 - $800 but I didn't pay anywhere near that for them. I probably have just as many conventional engines as I do TMCC/Legacy type of engines. I feel the hobby as a whole has come a long way. I enjoy all scales when I see displays of them. If I could start all over would I go another scale? Probably not. There still is a large following in S scale as Lionel is making it again and has been for quite a few years. To me, most of what I have seen in HO is too fragile for me. Nscale to small for me to work with.
The bottom line today is what you like. You can do as detail or non-detail as you want in any scale.
Me I have too much invested in O to go to HO.
And there is still a lot that runs conventional in O, but you normally don't hear about that. It seems what you hear about it seems to be the $1000 engines and all. ( not for me, I see that as just bragging,) I have a couple of engines that are probably around $600 - $800 but I didn't pay anywhere near that for them. I probably have just as many conventional engines as I do TMCC/Legacy type of engines.
I feel the hobby as a whole has come a long way. I enjoy all scales when I see displays of them.
If I could start all over would I go another scale? Probably not. There still is a large following in S scale as Lionel is making it again and has been for quite a few years.
To me, most of what I have seen in HO is too fragile for me. Nscale to small for me to work with.
Yes, they are fragile scale models.
Actually, that is one of the new "debates" in HO. Brands like MTH and Broadway Limited have tried to bring O gauge "handling durability" while still making the models reasonably well detailed.
Well to my eyes, being a life long scale model builder, a professional engineer/draftsman/residential designer who sees correct (or incorrect) proportion in everything, they look like toys - like scaled down post war LIONEL O.
I could be wrong, but Mike Wolf retired partly because his HO move was a mistake. Admittedly my circle of HO friends are more the "model builder" type, but even on the forums, you don't hear many people saying they have and love a bunch of MTH HO.
I like my fragile scale models with their fine, correct size details.
And again, we all find our own "home" in this wonderful hobby. I enjoy watching O gauge, I would never buy any......
yes, I realize HO uses radius versus Diameter. and in O gauge you really want 42" diameter or larger to run your scale size passenger cars and engines. I have O54, O63, O72, & O84.
But as I said, I have too much invested in what I have and at my age can not even think of trying to sell what I have to goto HO. There too much I love about what I have. And HO is very nice these days, Back when I got into O most HO were toy-like items. So was O/O27
smokey1 If you look at the HO scale ( the scale items with the decoder and all in them) they're just as expensive as the Lionel/MTH trains are with their control system. Or very close. just as I've O gauge over $1000 I have seen HO that was compatible in detail and all just as expensive.
If you look at the HO scale ( the scale items with the decoder and all in them) they're just as expensive as the Lionel/MTH trains are with their control system. Or very close. just as I've O gauge over $1000 I have seen HO that was compatible in detail and all just as expensive.
Yes, right this minute the latest large locomotives with DCC and sound are pricey, but I have a roster of 140 well detailed, good running DC locos, most made in the last 25 years. My average cost each is about $100, with the range being $50 to $300.
If I wanted to add DCC and sound to them I could do that for about $80 each.
A few pictures:
Some of the pictures are not that great, but all of these are smooth running well detailed scale models. As you can see some are kitbash/painting projects in progress.
For me, and a lot of HO modelers, this is not a hobby about buying expensive models and just taking them out of the box....... it is about building, creating, weathering, and more.
smokey1 Actually back when HO started it had a wider Diameter than O/O27. O was 31" O27 was 27" and if I remember correctly HO was somewhere around 34". And just my point of view, but you will find most HO people consider somewhere around 90% of all Bachmann and Tyco trains to be toy-like. As they are. They are not the scale trains most of them want.
Actually back when HO started it had a wider Diameter than O/O27. O was 31" O27 was 27" and if I remember correctly HO was somewhere around 34".
And just my point of view, but you will find most HO people consider somewhere around 90% of all Bachmann and Tyco trains to be toy-like. As they are. They are not the scale trains most of them want.
The minum HO "train set " circle was 15" radius or yes, about 34" needed for clearance. Today 18" is the minimum.
Yes, those of us in HO consider "train set" HO "toys".
If you really want HO to work well and look good with ALL equipment (passenger cars, modern long freight cars, etc) you need more like 30" radius curves, and 36" radius or larger is much better.
They are not toys, they are scale models, they need at least nearly scale curves.
Understand this, a 36" radius curve in HO is still a very sharp curve translated to real life.
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