Manufacturers' production focus

[Anonymous]

Hello All: Well said Roy, (voted mid range) Regards Steve

[Jumijo]

Small world, Jeff. I work in Lexington and have a Steve Grogan replica shirt in my closet. He was great! And old people are dying in record numbers up here now that they've finally seen the Red Sox win the World Series. I'm still waiting to wake up!

Jim

[Anonymous]

Hey Jim,

First of all congrats on the Pats and the Sox! Amazing, huh? I was born at the Boston Lying-In and lived the first 18 years of my life in Cambridge and Lexington. I still can't believe that baseball postseason. It was unbelieveable!! I don't think we'll ever see anything like that again. I just can't wrap my mind around the Pats thing. When you grow up watching Steve Grogan run the offense, winning three of four Super Bowls just doesn't compute...

I hear you on the year round train argument. That is the ultimate goal. The reason we're not doing it now is because we don't want to displace his huge Thomas layout. He's three and plays with it constantly. At his age it's easier for him to handle and he really uses his imagination. I think that with an electric set he'd basically do two things: watch it go around and spin the throttle up till the train flew off the track. Much more passive play.

Granted, the set I got has coal in a dumping hopper, logs on a dumping flatcar, and crates for the boxcar and he'd love those, but we figure it makes sense for his Thomas set to be his primary set for at least a couple more years. Then when he outgrows the wooden stuff and can better handle the O gauge gear--maybe around 5 or 6 years old with supervision?--the Christmas set can become his everyday set.

Thanks for the reply,
Jeff

[Jumijo]

Mwether,

Why wait almost 10 months to set up the train set? Set it up now and enjoy it! I think part of the reason electric trains in general and O scale trains in particular aren't more widely sought out by the public is the perception that they're only for the holidays, under the tree, ho ho ho and all that. Trains are a year round pleasure and shouldn't be limited to being used only at Christmas time around a tree.

Another reason interested people might steer clear is the pricing structure. I agree with your point about wanting inexpensive rolling stock, but after a recent purchase, I'm rapidly growing weary. I bought a set of 3 hoppers because the price was low. I might as well have thrown the money out the window. All they do is derail, derail, derail. That kind of experience takes the enthusiasm out of running trains, especially for children. Evidently, one must grab their ankles in order to get decent, reliable products in O scale. I see no reason why $10-20 rolling stock can't function as well as higher priced offerings. As I asked before, how much does it cost to have a box car made in Asia and shipped here, $2 bucks?

Jim

[Anonymous]

I am brand new to the hobby. My eldest son will be four and he is a Brio/Thomas maniac right now. He saw a bunch of terrific O gauge layouts during the Christmas season and got all excited about electric trains.

Figuring January would be a good time to buy, I just got a K-Line starter set which will be running around the bottom of the tree when he comes down next Christmas. It's in a closet and won't come out till December--much as I'd love to play with it before then! (Don't worry; I was sure to test it when it arrived!!)

Over the year, I'm planning to buy some Dept.56 type buildings and Holiday cars to round out the display. If his fascination with trains and the hobby persists as he grows older/more coordinated--and if our 10 mo. old twins show interest later--we may move to HO because of price/selection/space issues. Still, we'll continue to run the holiday O set.

To sum up, as the father of young kids, my interest is running trains and high play value. I'd love to see O manufacturers concentrate on tough, inexpensive rolling stock and operating cars/accessories.

Best,
J-

[Anonymous]

I entered Mid range... Not really sure why because I think most of the prices are an outrage. In reality we all know what we can afford. Some guys have massive layouts built by the pro's and then there are the guys like me. Just running trains and having fun with whats been in the family for 60 or more years. How much can it truly cost to design and manufacture these "toys" in China? When Lionel moved all their manufacturing to China I thought the prices would come down a bit. Guess not. If you compare toy trains to other toys, they're way out of line. Toys are all made in Asia so how come I can afford a gas powered radio controlled truck for my 13 year old daughter for Christmas. (She's a tomboy who also loves trains) But when I look at train sets, starter sets are petty much the only thing in my price range. I have enough starter sets from the past. How is a starter set from today any different. My children all recieved their own starter sets. Trying to add on is just not going to happen for the prices they're asking.

[powernailer]

After reading the reviews for almost a half an hour, I've come down to the fact that we all have our choices. Yes, wouldn't it be great if Lionel could build us a diesel with command and all the bells and whistles for a better price. Maybe under new leadership, Lionel will listen to the customer, to the guys and even the girls out there that are running their product. I've been in this hobby for 40 years and my son for almost all of his 18 years. We both love it. Getting more people into the hobby is the answer but not an easy task. Yes, HO cost less, but show me a 3 or 4 year that might be able to put them on the track and let them run, I don't think so. O gauge is the best starter set and Lionel is one of the best. I think the big question to all manufactuers should be, "you now produce offshore, but the prices don't reflect it much, maybe your help needs to be people who enjoy their job, people who enjoy trains like the people who buy them, and maybe they need to give the company a fair days work for a fair days pay." And maybe the companys that produce these products and other products that we buy, should start to listen US, the people that are keeping them in business.

[Anonymous]

Hi, have read all of your messages and you all have some good points, It used to be you could buy some high performance autos for 3 to 4 thousand now you can't find a decent used one for that--all the bells and whistles they have added {basically junk} is just to add to the price. If they had to drive a 46 they wouldn't know where to start or even start it.
Thus given the fact most of the jobs have been sent out to foreign countrys and what we have to pay in taxs, I think the average family is lucky to be able to afford very much on trains, its mostly for rent, doctors and bills and food.
Also and maybe I am wrong but I personally don't see or hear of many young people {regardless of age} playing with any train, they mostly play X-box and computer games and get on internet when parents let them or they or watching some junk tv program. They certainly aren't playing marbles or coyboys and indians, heck they can't even buy a cap gun anymore {Thank you Mr Gov't prying hands}The whole family has to work and send the kids to a baby sitter. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see much in the way of trains in todays generations.
As far as quality my old Marx set wasn't too bad- not as nice as Lionel but not bad, later asked why I didn't get a Lionel - They couldn't afford it even though it was only 10 0r 15 dollars more at the time! The Marx was a smoker but wasn't loaded with a bunch of extras.
I just think the companys should put out some good quality trains w/details, advertiseing would help. I have yet to see any tv comercial with any kind of train.- Not saying they haven't but not in this area as best I Know.
I don't think a nice decent set in the $300 range is bad. They spend more than that on box games and computer games. {that is if they are interested at all}}

[Anonymous]

Maunfacturers must always keep quality low priced entry level items in their line to attract new modelers coming into the hobby. That being said they need to concentrate their production where the highest percentage of O scale modelers play....in the $300-$700 price range.
My largest engine is a K-line Scale Mikado which I purchased during their first Fall Fair Days event when they sent out $100 off coupons which brought the price down to $500. That is about the most I'd ever spend on a engine. Not because I can not afford it but I think its crazy to spend any more on a toy. My most recent purcahse was a Lionel Consolidation off of e-bay for $400. Both the Mikado and Consolidation are great engines.
So keep the Big Boys and Mallets to a minimum. Keep a simple rule, I want them in scale, the more detail the better but they better run on 031 track or your are now selling to the minority of the hobby (072 or larger). Oh yes Command Contol or DCS is a must.

[jwse30]

It's been said before, but I'll say it again, in case an importer is lurking. Include at least one switch (even if it's manual) with every starter set . A few extra pieces of track to make a siding would be even better.

To get back on topic, the industry as a whole should do what it can (i.e. make affordable starter sets/ rolling stock) or soon there will be no industry.

J White

[artyoung]

for: dingodot. If you're looking for affordable Postwar, may I suggest instead Modern Era Lionel MPC Re-issues (1970's-80's). Careful shopping can pay off with real bargains in F-3's, GP's, and even GG-1's and Steamers. The main thing to steer clear of are those units with plastic gears (unless you know someone who'll convert them cheaply). Like you, budget constraints have kept me from buying the originals, but even there you can still pick up something if you can disregard a few scratches or missing parts and then do your own repairs. Example: I own AND operate most postwar operating cars and accesories. They may not be pristine, but they do work. Don't give up!

[Anonymous]

Right on about the Polar Express set. Great price for a nice set. If Lionel and the other
manufactures would get on this band wagon and expand it all the better for the hobby.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by teeb

. . . But there needs to be a market for the average Joe, or more importantly his kids, to buy a MTH or Lionel at Target, Toys rUs etc. at competitive prices in addition to Ebay & other online stores. . . .

Agreed! And as someone who is just entering the hobby, I wonder why many of the lower priced sets have to have some gimmick attached to them. Does a deisel set with Coca Cola's or some other mega-corp's logos splattered all over it really appeal to anyone? I don't think so. I want affordable trains that look like real trains. Not NASCAR on rails.

K-Line and Industrial Rail both offer affordable (<$15.00) rolling stock. They've caught my attention. I'll be buying some of each. MTH might as well not exist to me because of the high prices. Lionel at least has a few reasonably priced locos.

One thing I'd like to see is a manufacturer like Lionel offer the same product with different options at different prices. A traditional Berkshire (6-28639) with Rail Sounds lists for $229.99 in the catalog, but can be found for under $200. Why not offer the same product without Rail Sounds (upgradable?) for $125 - $150 so that there is something for everybody?

Jim

[Anonymous]

This poll will likely be skewed given that we are taking the time to visit a train website...we love it enough to spend decent money on it.
I think the bigger question is where are trains sold. So long as they are sold primarly through "dealers" with "dealer" prices , it will continue to be hobbyist' focused-marketed. I do not think it was intended to be so back in th early days of Lionel, Marx, etc. It was for dads and sons to play with. I have no beef against spending money on trains...we all do. But there needs to be a market for the average Joe, or more importantly his kids, to buy a MTH or Lionel at Target, Toys rUs etc. at competitive prices in addition to Ebay & other online stores.
Just ask the folks at Apple computers about selling through "dealers"...if not for changing their marketing techniques(as well as some help from Mr Gates and the Ipod) Apple/ Macintosh would not even have the 5 % market share it now enjoys. I hope some of the train manufacturers figure this out.

[Anonymous]

Ever since the word 'Collector' was conceived in the hobby world the price of enjoyable things, like toy trains, have been driven out-of-sight by those who have the money to spend on such items. This is evident when I see walls of trains, which will probably just collect dust and never be run, in pictures of collectors homes.

Most companies selling products would rather sell fewer top-of-the-line items than more lower price ones since they bring in higher profits. Collectors have reinforced that trend for manufacturers making it hard for many people, especially kids, who would like to set up a layout but don't have the money to spare. Lower priced (well built like those in the 50's) trains and items would allow them to have a starting point and continue as funds permit. Also, it would allow the rest of us, who are not collectors, to add a new train or two and some items to an existing operating layout.

I've been searching for some postwar items and when I find them, thanks to all you 'so called collectors', the asking price is out of my reach; and I can't afford 'new' either.

[Anonymous]

I have a pretty solid variety of trains - several good postwar engines, several Williams engines, and several modern MTH/Lionel.K-line engines. When you get above $800.00 for anything, you've lost a lot of your market due to simple economics. However, those of us who are Lionel kids must remember that back in the day, other then Scout-type sets, this stuff was pricy. The 50.00 in 1955 is not much different from the $350.00 today.

That said, what amazes me is that six companies (Lionel, MTH, Altas, Williams, Weaver, K-lIne) remain viable in the current market place considering the amount of both new and used product out there. The hi-rail/semi scale market is supporting a LOT of this; while we talk about entry level need, the truth is most of us are happy to have trains that don't look like strings of 6464 boxcars and Lehigh Valley hoppers. That is where a good portion of the money is coming from - $30.-50. cars that we feel work best on our layouts. The manufacturers are making a lot of exciting stuff, but the overall marketplace is glutted, a situation that will not last without consequences. Here in my town, the last independent hobby shop is going out of business this month - too little business for the inventory required to have on hand. The owner says he just can't fight it any more.

My feeling is that Lionel has done a great job with the new steam switcher; it is something that will fit any layout - tinplate or hi-rail, it looks good, and the price is right. The low end market needs quality - period. The point about mass-produced junk is well-taken: the first-time buyer who ends up with toy trains that don't run is a lost customer as well. The Polar Express and other high-visibility media presentations related to railroading are one way in, but the manufacturers need to be certain that they build customer loyalty and interest with quality, not just price...

[3railguy]

Brian, you need a more posative outlook on life. Your world is what you make it. A choice you were given when you were born. Nobody can make your world. You are born again every day so it is never too late.

[brianel027]

There have been some good comments from John Blair, Pennsylvania, Jim H and Bill Ring.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, the US economy is in a true state of transition. Recents reports of dramatic rises in poverty plus a new report that although new jobs are currently being created, the wages for these jobs are at a recent all time low considering the cost of living and inflation indexes.

Of course, many once good paying American jobs have now gone overseas. Call it greed, call it the global economy - it's happening. Even most of our beloved train companies are now overseas and should be properly considered importers versus manufacturers. Although one big difference I notice between the these train products and other consumer goods, is that the prices on many other consumer goods are going down. In some instances, way down. You can now buy portable CD players for $10 and DVD players for under $50. Yet overall, train prices keep going up.

Another interesting tidbit I heard on the news is that the sales of more expensive luxury items held strong over the CHRISTmas holiday buying season. Is it any wonder? America still has a very high number of citizens who are very wealthy by US standards. Just as I would be willing to guess that there are still a number of wealthy individuals in this train hobby for whom money is not a main consideration.

So as I said above, that the US economy is in a state of transistion (and not necessarily good for the foreseeable future), this train hobby is soon going to be a much bigger state of transition than has recently been seen. Not only is there the average high age of the today's typical modeler/collector (meaning fewer modelers in the upcoming years with more used trains going to the aftersale market with declining prices), there's also the legal wrangling between MTH and Lionel, the limited distribution and retail outlets for all makes of model trains, the lack of promotion, and the abundance of higher priced train items. In general IMHO the retail prices of most train products are simply too high, especially given where the trains are being made and what they actually cost to be made.

As said earlier by Bill Sherwood, the next few years for the train importers will be a balancing act. They don't want to lose customers who want more detailed, scale, feature oriented product. But on the other hand, they need to reach out to new customers who might like to be in the hobby but simply cannot afford to do so. As Jim H said, there is reasonable\y priced product at mailorder venues and on ebay. But for the beginner who doesn't understand the hobby (and the various product numbers that you see listed in a mailorder ad), the electronics or even the various track types, buying trains off ebay can be a somewhat intimidating experience... nevermind that sometimes the sellers of the trains don't even understand what they are selling.

I would sincerely hope that there will continue to be upper notch level trains for those who can afford and want them. But I hope the companies recognize that they need to put a little less effort into trying to out do eachother on the high-end and a little more effort into quality lower end beginner types of trains that will help ensure this hobby has a future. And quality mid-range items so that modelers who want to buy newer trains with details and features can afford to do so. I said "quality" because I can't imagine a newcomer having experiences like Bill Ring and then staying with the hobby. The 3-rail hobby has been blessed in recent years to have so much new, scale detailed product available. But let us not forget that the history of the 3-rail hobby has been solidly in the TOY arena... it was Lionel or Marx Trains that typically introduced a
child to the hobby of railroading - not HO or N scales. This is still an important job that the 3-rail trains do best.

And a final note, we modelers need to cut the importers some slack. There is no way they can continue to afford to constantly issue brand new items from brand new tooling created every single year that does not pay for itself in the first few production runs. Or very specific particular model variations of real engines that were only used by one or two prototype railroads.... the 3-rail hobby does not have the numbers of buyers that the HO hobby does that makes that sort of product variation much more easy and affordable to do in HO from a production standpoint. Again, we in the 3-rail hobby have been very blessed to have the vast amount of product we have had in the past few years. We need to take a lesson from the HO guys and learn to kitbash our models into the particular variations we are seeking.

[Anonymous]

I am done buying $400. locos, they fail, and my last repair bill on an earlier MTH K-4 was $125 plus shipping. My Lionel Atlantic is waiting a new reverse unit. The Lionel 0-6-0 saddle tank has amazing detail for a $100 engine, even cut levers for the couplers, also it is a close model of the last Reading steam engine in regular service, (Feb 1958 Railroad magazine pg.47., also a foto can be found on the internet.). A BIG PLUS---my grandchildren are huge Thomas the tank engine fans. When they saw my tank engine they became very excited and ran to tell gradma about it, now the want to run it all the time. What a great connection between Thomas toys and real model railroading. Also this loco will pull 8 heavy weight 18in passenger cars. I have a large layout, 30ft by 16ft and several $400 locos but my lower priced engines are my favorites. Williams does a good job, but their Classic series are way over priced

Bill Ring

[jimhaleyscomet]

Majorjkg,

You might consider a TMCC equiped beep. Much shorter and still comand. I am still waiting for my Beeps, but hope they are just the thing for cramped yards.

Jim H

[majorjkg]

I would like to see an 0-6-0 dockside switcher with command control and railsounds. I guess the current technology is too big for such a small package. Guess I will go with the new MTH 0-6-0 switcher with tender but 17 inches is quite long for a cramped yard -- eight inches would be better!

[jimhaleyscomet]

It seems to me that there is pleanty of less expensive product out there. However you must be "already in the hobby" to find it. Here is one example. I had some friends who (unknown to me) had set up a great set around the walls of their son's room. They had spent about $250 or $300 for a railsounds engine, probably another $250 for a very large transformer, and another $100 on O track (not O27). All of this at a hobby shop that should have known better. I have never said they got a bad deal to them, but they kind of new it anyway. They then only had enough money for a few cheap 1980's very light "clearance" cars that jumped the rails all the time. Finally they found out I was into trains and asked me for help. First I took them to our friendly local hobbyshop for a metal RailKing car (still $40 but very nice) that does just fine even whith their old heavy caboose in tow. A few weeks later I met them at Hobby Lobby during a 40% off train set week. They wanted me around because they were afraid to buy anything without assistance!!!!! We looked at the Lionel and K-line sets. A little advice from me and they chose the K-line switcher set with snap track, transformer, FOUR cars and caboose all for about $140 with tax. They were really enthused to have another entire set to run around the tree plus extra cars for their son's set the rest of the year. My point is now they can add entire sets to their collection for less than their first engine OR transformer cost. Our manufactures and retailers need to get the low cost sets out there so people are not put off by the hobbies high cost!

A quality unit that
1. will not quit
2. has forward, reverse, nuetral, and a horn
3. a 40 watt transformer and
4. a few cars
will get people interested. The next biggest cost item is powered switches (K-line makes a nice 027 for $20 or less if you know where to get it). $5 track, $50 cars, $50 switches, $100 operating accessories is what drives people from the hobby. Don't get me wrong, the high price switches and track with built in beds are very nice (MTH Realtrax, Lionel O....) but not if that is your only choice.

And I wonder about the hobby stores that do not carry K-line sets at less than retail! Haven't they ever heard of a loss leader or does the distributer get too much of a mark up to make it possible!

Jim H

[Anonymous]

ALL of the inputs are excellent! I would add only a few thing's to those already listed.
PRICES ACROSS THE LINE ARE TOO HIGH! Why don't the Manufactures get "Up to Speed" on EFFECTIVE MARKETING/ADVERTISING and keep in mind that all of us are not filthy rich. Some of the "OLD" ideas still apply and I suggest that LIONEL seriosly think about re-introducing a PUBLICATION such as "THE MODEL BUILDER" done in a "PC-Compatible" format. (Model Railroader is doing such a thing.) Just THINK about all of the potential!

[3railguy]

QUOTE: What these hobbyists who want the manufacturers to bother with locomotives over 250.00 fail to realize is that new blood is the future of the hobby.

There are plenty of great low end engines for less than $250. I will not let someone's halucination of the hobby's future affect my buying choices. I entered this hobby purely for enjoyment - nothing more.

[Anonymous]

I think I'll bring this up. One reason why the video game industry is so sucessful has to do with pricing and quality. After buying the console, the customer has a variety of games to choose from. When a game is released, it starts normally at $50, the customer can choose to immediatly buy it or wait for a drop in price, that normally goes down to $20. Same goes with consoles, a Playstation 2 was released at $200, now it's down to about $125, which means a customer can wait for that to. The disks also are a factor, it appears that compact disks are easy to create, they can create more without paying much, which means AOL can invest in creating free trial disks.

If any toy train company can find a way to create trains with high quality while using material that can allow them to sell them at lower prices it would mean more sales.

[Anonymous]

My mom got a great deal on a train set for Christmas. It's an MTH Pennsylvania Passenger Set. It has a loco-sound Consolidation and 3 lighted passenger cars, it only costed $215 on the MTH site they price it at $300, I believe that is done to help some hobby shops out. The MTH Consolidation with Loco sounds is the best low budget loco I have, vs my Pennsylvania Flyer Loco. My MTH Pennst Consolidation smokes better than my Pennsy Flyer loco.

[Anonymous]

johnblair,
"Bothering" with locos that cost more than $250 keeps many people who spend some big bucks INTERESTED in the hobby right NOW. You don't have a future if you don't address people's concerns who will keep you in business NOW.

Looks like a Catch 22. There needs to be BALANCE and a long term plan, and the reason I suspect they "bother" with the trains they do.

Bill

[PeterCondro]

I would focus on the mid-range locos. If an entry level set hasd got you interested , then you'll be looking for a moderately price loco with all the bells and whistles. I believe thes should be in the $175-275 range. I think command control is more important than sounds at least at the beginning. Sound add ons could easily come as an option for later.
If you create a following for this type of engine, the high-end ones will come naturally.
Peter

[Anonymous]

What these hobbyists who want the manufacturers to bother with locomotives over 250.00 fail to realize is that new blood is the future of the hobby. If the manufacturers succeed in mass marketing this stuff then they will be big enough to produce expensive ones as well but if they concentrate of high dollar stuff, the hobby's finished anyway especially with the rapid and permanent reduction in the American standard of living which has become apparent in the last few years.