Manufacturers' production focus

[Kelly Shaw]

What price-range locomotives should they focus on?

[jimhaleyscomet]

I think the manufactures should focus on entry and low-end price locomotives (and sets). They would have to sell many more but the low price should help. Having a nice $700 locomotive with sound is nice...but...... Purchasing ten $50 or $100 convential control loco's would be more fun for new hobby folks.

[cnw1995]

entry-level in terms of price - but the market seems to be at the other end of the scale - just not for me!

[IRONROOSTER]

I voted for low end, but I also think that entry level is important also; but a word of caution, you don't want junk. It's getting pretty expensive for someone to casually buy their kid a train any more. I was in Toys R Us this Christmas and saw only one train set - a low end HO set done up in olive drab colors.
Enjoy
Paul

[brianel027]

Of course there should be more focus of affordable, entry level trains. And more focus on introducing the hobby to newcomers. Ideas I had 14 years ago on this topic are still not being done today... would they work? I don't know, but I know they haven't been tried either.

BUT, ain't gonna happen either... at least to any large great extent. The various importers are too much at each others throats to let their guard down much. The competition is too intense and the presitge and kudos go mostly to upper level product, though there have been some curious recent exceptions. The RMT "Beep" being one of those curious exceptions. But the "Beep" was also made from existing tooling with no real investment costs. Would any company have bothered to make that engine today had they had to do it from square one? Another curious exception is the new Lionel Docksider, which seems to be a big hit and is from new tooling. Congratulations Lionel! Lionel should have done this one years ago, and hopefully will continue with it. The new K-Line "Kids O" line I'm certain is from existing dies and tooling that K-Line purchased cheaply or is being allowed to use. I seriously doubt K-Line would have put any money into developing those products from scratch. But I suppose it's good they are being made and they are an affordable option.

Both of those products (the RMT "Beep" and Lionel Docksider) also received attention from the model train press. But usually entry level, non-scale products gather little real attention. I think another contender for best Lionel product entries of the past decade was the 15000 series Waffle Box Car. Finally a modern box car that looks right at home on a smaller layout. But it never got any real attention either. I don't understand why Lionel doesn't put that car in every starter set with a fairly contemporary road, like the recent Chessie or Southern Diesel Sets.

There has been a tremendous amount of new scale sized product tooled up over the past few years. I'm certain none of these items pay for themselves immediately. Which is why I suspect we won't see prices coming down too much on other items that are from tooling that has been around for years: the entry level and standard fare products are helping to support all the high end product developement. And until sales on scale high end stuff fall utterly flat or one of the companies goes under, I don't think there's going to be too much change in the near future.

This is one area though, where I hope I'm wrong. We'll see what happens with Lionel under J.C. (and with the pending legal problems).

[pennsy_fan]

I think low to mid-range locos with half-decent detailing and optional sounds are going to be the bread & butter of the train companies. I own a docksider & love it, I also applaud k-line for their diesel industrial switcher, another "low end" loco with surprisingly great detail and operation. Lack of command/control features aside, I think the majority of folks, especially new comers, will be less intmidated about the cost factor of such locos and wont scare some away from the hobby.

just my[2c]

[TurboOne]

Entry Level and Low End. Get the new people excited. Get them running with a new set, and start adding trains.

The more people in the hobby, the more that can buy more in the future.

I would even have a $99.00 starter set, and advertise the heck out of it in places that have nothing to do with trains. Have it be reliable, not fancy. Throw in a couple of scale people, and you have reality toys, not make believe video. LGB has a great brochure, and it gets you excited.

Tim

[Anonymous]

I have voted mid range as in truth I believe the low to high range is required. The low end is essential but without the more expensive locomotives it would be difficult to introduce new technology and develop improvements. These eventually filter down to the lower priced models and so keep this great hobby exciting, especially for today’s youngsters.

Clive

[willpick]

I voted low end, but I feel that there is a niche for ALL price ranges. Without the entry level engines[BEEPS & the K-line Geep unit]; or the high end scale engine with all the new gee whiz stuff, the hobby won't progress[think 1970-1990] And the low end/mid range loco's will fill the expectations and desires of those who are not collectors, but run the heck out of their stuff[:)]

[Anonymous]

Any and all catagories that make money and helps pay the bills.

Regarding the scale trains, I'll play the Devil's advocate. Even if the scale trains only net ten cents after the bills are paid, then you at least keep people interested. These same people buy the other products such as track and transformers and stuff. Also, the scale products lend to the prestiege. While everyone can't afford the top of the line, they can still own products made by the top of the line train producers. Getting a reputation for being cheap can be a negative. Sometimes people mistake cheaper price for cheaper quality. Does Mercedes make a D Class yet?

[wrmcclellan]

All of them. Which is what I think they do today.

The real issue may be the ad space and thus the perception is that the high end stuff gets all the press. They also dominate the catalogs - since the production runs are low, they want to make sure they sell the expensive stuff vs having it on the shelf.

It would be prudent for Lionel and MTH to put more catalog and advertising focus on what you can do with starter sets and lower price items to build interest in the hobby.

There are some very creative things being done with the starter and lower price items that are not being made visible to the buyer of those sets. You would like them to continue to run and play with them after its taken from around the Christmas tree or off the floor and not have the perception that a huge investment is required.

A good example is many years ago when Jim Bundt did the simple step-by-step build of a simple Lionel layout from one of the postwar books or magazines.

Thor on this forum has shown some very creative uses of small spaces for layouts.

How to get the word out - maybe CTT and OGR should consider a program with Lionel, MTH, K-Line, Williams, Weaver, etc., for a free sample issue (or even better, maybe a small beginners layout flyer - step-by-step build and a subscription card).

Regards,
Roy

[TurboOne]

Roy, I don't know if you are working, but Lionel ought to run out and hire you. You hit a grand slam with your ideas.

Just like the movie, if you build it, they will come.

Tim

[Big_Boy_4005]

I simply will not buy a locomotive for over $300. I don't buy steam engines. I have been very successful finding engines in my price range on Ebay.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrmcclellan

All of them. Which is what I think they do today.
How to get the word out - maybe CTT and OGR should consider a program with Lionel, MTH, K-Line, Williams, Weaver, etc., for a free sample issue (or even better, maybe a small beginners layout flyer - step-by-step build and a subscription card).

Very good points Roy. [bow] It does seem interesting that CTT or OGR doesn't have "subscription" cards packed with various products. I would suggest that CTT explore the purchase of THOR's web page and use his layout ideas as a promotional tool for their magazine and the hobby in general. Thor's layout could even be on a CTT DVD/CD.

I look for deals on my engine purchases. My K-Line Mikado is the most expensive and it was 33% off. My Williams Genesis was about $100 and then I added the TMCC and Railsounds from TAS and I have a great engine. I also learned more than I wanted to know about TMCC and Railsounds components. [:)]

[brianel027]

Everyone here so far is making good points. I'm not against high-end or scale so please don't read what I say as that. But there is a decidedly leaning towards that direction. The hobby may not have moved forward much in the MPC/early Kughn years, but bear in mind the MPC period saw several brand new traditionally sized locomotives that ran on 027 track (GP20, GP38, U36B, RS3). And quality aside, there was a wide selection of starter sets during that period... I know many who did get their start in the hobby with a MPC set. Lionel MPC was available in department stores and also advertised on national television.

There's a fine line between cheap and affordable. Cost cutting has always been done and will continue to be done. It's important the cuts don't compromise the overall quality of a particular item or set. First perceptions are important. Well made introductory products will do more to help and grow the hobby.

Roy's suggestions are also one's I've been making for a long time now. Probably others have too. I've made the point with just the covers of the catalogs showing kids holding engines that retail for $1,200+ is a fantasy and absurd. The catalogs should be geared towards the newcomers as far as visuals and the covers go. The serious modelers already know what's inside and will find what they want.

Thor's site is wonderful and offers more info than many of the companies offer on their own sites. There should at least be a link. But also consider the many people who travel to shows with layouts to demonstrate to the public... it takes time, effort and all of it unpaid work. The joy comes from seeing the kids faces. I know, I did this for many years with a very kid focused layout. The responses were very positive and I know I brought new people and kids into the hobby. BUT it is not only up to US modelers; it it really up to the companies to decide they want this and to go after it. We modelers can help, but the job shouldn't be ours alone.

As far as bargains on upper level train items... yes there are bargains and blowouts. But it's because the stuff isn't selling well. Simple as that. Or the production run was too big (and I understand that's being brought under control by the various companies). I don't think any of them would be selling product at 40-60% off list if it was moving out in the first place. Also bear in mind the various companies need the money as fast as they can get it. If items are not selling, it is in their short-term best interest to blow it out either direct or via the distributor network ASAP.

Think of it this way... let's say the tooling/start-up cost for doing a new locomotive is $100K. Ten new locomotive models... that's $1M in investment costs, not including actual production runs. It's no wonder that companies like MTH have a reputation for wanting payment from dealers/wholesalers immediately. Or that K-Line charges your CC for payment long before the club engine actually arrives. Believe me, we may be impressed with all this new product, but it is expensive - at least for these small companies.

[Anonymous]

Why are people running up the votes for the expensive stuff. Do you really want to spend more money? I will take any extra you have lying around. I am a grad student with a two month old and a too expensive hobby.

The best way to go is the high quality less expensive stuff like the Lionel Docksider and K-line Plymouth and the MTH Pennsy Consolidation. These are near scale and don't cost an arm and a leg. Now if only there were a few more types in this size price range. There is already enough for the rich guys. Most of the engines in the catalogs are for them already anyways.

What are you trying to prove with this poll anyway? Won't it just say people are set in thier ways and everyone is doing a good job, keep it up. Expencive engines are expected.

My feeling is that if Lionel made a second Acela as a starter set that ran on 0-31 curves they would sell many, many, many more and make more sets in the long run.It would be a much better use of thier expencive licence. The Bachmann HO model is a scale model there are no toys of this train. As it is now these Lionel Acela sets are made for speculators, they will rarely be run.

[3railguy]

My vote was for mid range locomotives in the $300 to $400 range. I can settle for one or two locomotives a year and I would rather have one finely detailed, smooth running, great sounding diesel verses a handful of low end models.

The industry has done well with low end engines such as the RMT Beep, Lionel saddle tanker, and K-Line Plymouth. I agree more could be done in the low end department. But, what sells the best is what manufacturers continue to produce.

What often happens is someone buys a locomotive for $100 and decides he likes this hobby. However, he wants more. Command control, sounds, scale size, detail, etc. He then goes for the $300 price point to get these features.

[Jumijo]

I'm just coming back to the hobby as an adult, having last participated with HO scale as a pre-teen. My kids are at an age that I wanted to introduce them to the fun I had with my Lionel trains as a boy, so They got the Lionel NYC Flyer and the Thomas sets for Christmas. These sets are great and we're having a lot of fun with them. The love of trains is clearly being instilled in these kid's hearts. It's as plain as the smiles on their faces, and I couldn't be happier.

Having said that, I was shocked beyond belief at how expensive it all is! Lionel steam locos start at $99.00! Rolling stock at $29.00! Fastrack manual switches are $29.99! That quickly adds up to a lot of money to spend to make kids smile. And at those prices, I'm apprehensive about letting my kids play with them for fear they'll damage them. I'd love to be able to take the kids to the store and buy a few new box cars or even a new engine once in a while, but thirty bucks for one?! Several hundred for an engine?! I certainly can't afford to start replacing busted engines or even adding on at those prices.

I think there needs to be more emphasis placed on lower-priced items, not just locomotives. People might not spent $50 for one box car, but they would most likely spend the same $50 for several box cars. And how much does it really cost to manufacture one plastic box car anyway, $2, maybe $3 tops? Same thing applies to engines. I'd buy several steam engines if they cost $50-$75, but I wouldn't think of buying ONE at $300! I can't take my kids to a hobby shop, have them pick out a particular item they like, then tell them I can't afford it because it's outrageously priced. Better to just let their attention turn towards something else and run the train under the tree once a year.

HO manufacturers seem to have something for everyone's price range. Perhaps that is why it is by far the most popular scale. Engines from $11.99 on up. Accesories and rolling stock are similarly priced. The Lionel Thomas set is 5 times more expensive than the Bachman HO set. Why? Is it 5 times better? Is it 5 times bigger? No. I know you get what you pay for, but at least there are options. And when kid's toys are involved, cheaper is often better. I'd be much more inclined to buy my kids lower priced items that they can play with the way they are inclined to, learn how to properly use them, and not worry about breakage or unintentional abuse. I'd also be more inclined to work on and try to repair a less expensive item.

My love of trains was fostered long ago by my mother who, being a widow, didn't have a lot of extra money. My monthly allowance, which was meager, was usually spent on inexpensive HO train cars, engines, and buildings ordered from a magazine. I had countless hours of fun with that collection, and my interest in toy trains as an adult is a direct result of those wonderful times.

The hobbyist is the one who spends all the big bucks. The rest of us, especially children, are just starting out. Not quite hobbyists per se. To us, these trains are still considered toys, and toys shouldn't be priced out of reach. There should be an effort made to create a larger market niche for less expensive products so that everyone, be they beginners or people on a budget can enjoy and afford O scale model railroading. My guess is that beginners buying inexpensive items will most likely move up to buying the more expensive items as their interest and resources grow.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I voted low end. I've got my Dad's old Lionel .I just figured out what set he got, it is a
1413 WS: 1946 Lionel 027 Freight Train Set: 2020, 2020W, 2452X, 2465, 2454, 2472.

He also had a 1464W: (Type II): 1951 027 Diesel 3-car Pullman 2023 Silver A-A, 2421, 2422, 2423 all with gray roofs.

But with the move from back East way back in '71, missing items being the two 2023's and two Pullmans, now I get to find those 2 engines , plus still missing 1 of the pullmans.
I picked up a Williams engine (Santa Fe) a few shows ago, nice and powerful compared to post-war. I just don't believe we should have to spend a large amount of money to buy quality stuff.
Dave

[Anonymous]

There's an interest in, and a market for, all the price ranges. I voted for the mid range because that seems to be where my interests ( and pocketbook ) are. Also, the manufacturers won't draw a lot of new interest to the hobby if they consentrated mainly on the high end. Most people , and children, won't start a new hobby if the product is $1000 a pop.

Jack

[artyoung]

I've buttonholed Lionel Reps at York Meets for years regarding the "Scout" sets that comprise their entry level sets. Those old 2-4-2's were junk 50+ years ago and still are. The Lionel and MTH Docksiders are great, as is the RMT Beep. K-Line's Plymouth looks terrific, but is a little too puny for a starter set (although they do look sharp with the ore cars). But the best deal is the "Polar Express" set - what a bargain! And it's having a second run this Spring with some extra separate sale items. Now if all of this can be made presently (and profittably), why not pu***hem with mainstream magazine ads, or go back to the Sunday Comics ads?

I've been banging this drum for quite some time now, as have others. Do any of the manufacturers read these forums? We can't all be wrong.

[Anonymous]

What these hobbyists who want the manufacturers to bother with locomotives over 250.00 fail to realize is that new blood is the future of the hobby. If the manufacturers succeed in mass marketing this stuff then they will be big enough to produce expensive ones as well but if they concentrate of high dollar stuff, the hobby's finished anyway especially with the rapid and permanent reduction in the American standard of living which has become apparent in the last few years.

[PeterCondro]

I would focus on the mid-range locos. If an entry level set hasd got you interested , then you'll be looking for a moderately price loco with all the bells and whistles. I believe thes should be in the $175-275 range. I think command control is more important than sounds at least at the beginning. Sound add ons could easily come as an option for later.
If you create a following for this type of engine, the high-end ones will come naturally.
Peter

[Anonymous]

johnblair,
"Bothering" with locos that cost more than $250 keeps many people who spend some big bucks INTERESTED in the hobby right NOW. You don't have a future if you don't address people's concerns who will keep you in business NOW.

Looks like a Catch 22. There needs to be BALANCE and a long term plan, and the reason I suspect they "bother" with the trains they do.

Bill

[Anonymous]

My mom got a great deal on a train set for Christmas. It's an MTH Pennsylvania Passenger Set. It has a loco-sound Consolidation and 3 lighted passenger cars, it only costed $215 on the MTH site they price it at $300, I believe that is done to help some hobby shops out. The MTH Consolidation with Loco sounds is the best low budget loco I have, vs my Pennsylvania Flyer Loco. My MTH Pennst Consolidation smokes better than my Pennsy Flyer loco.

[Anonymous]

I think I'll bring this up. One reason why the video game industry is so sucessful has to do with pricing and quality. After buying the console, the customer has a variety of games to choose from. When a game is released, it starts normally at $50, the customer can choose to immediatly buy it or wait for a drop in price, that normally goes down to $20. Same goes with consoles, a Playstation 2 was released at $200, now it's down to about $125, which means a customer can wait for that to. The disks also are a factor, it appears that compact disks are easy to create, they can create more without paying much, which means AOL can invest in creating free trial disks.

If any toy train company can find a way to create trains with high quality while using material that can allow them to sell them at lower prices it would mean more sales.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: What these hobbyists who want the manufacturers to bother with locomotives over 250.00 fail to realize is that new blood is the future of the hobby.

There are plenty of great low end engines for less than $250. I will not let someone's halucination of the hobby's future affect my buying choices. I entered this hobby purely for enjoyment - nothing more.

[Anonymous]

ALL of the inputs are excellent! I would add only a few thing's to those already listed.
PRICES ACROSS THE LINE ARE TOO HIGH! Why don't the Manufactures get "Up to Speed" on EFFECTIVE MARKETING/ADVERTISING and keep in mind that all of us are not filthy rich. Some of the "OLD" ideas still apply and I suggest that LIONEL seriosly think about re-introducing a PUBLICATION such as "THE MODEL BUILDER" done in a "PC-Compatible" format. (Model Railroader is doing such a thing.) Just THINK about all of the potential!

[jimhaleyscomet]

It seems to me that there is pleanty of less expensive product out there. However you must be "already in the hobby" to find it. Here is one example. I had some friends who (unknown to me) had set up a great set around the walls of their son's room. They had spent about $250 or $300 for a railsounds engine, probably another $250 for a very large transformer, and another $100 on O track (not O27). All of this at a hobby shop that should have known better. I have never said they got a bad deal to them, but they kind of new it anyway. They then only had enough money for a few cheap 1980's very light "clearance" cars that jumped the rails all the time. Finally they found out I was into trains and asked me for help. First I took them to our friendly local hobbyshop for a metal RailKing car (still $40 but very nice) that does just fine even whith their old heavy caboose in tow. A few weeks later I met them at Hobby Lobby during a 40% off train set week. They wanted me around because they were afraid to buy anything without assistance!!!!! We looked at the Lionel and K-line sets. A little advice from me and they chose the K-line switcher set with snap track, transformer, FOUR cars and caboose all for about $140 with tax. They were really enthused to have another entire set to run around the tree plus extra cars for their son's set the rest of the year. My point is now they can add entire sets to their collection for less than their first engine OR transformer cost. Our manufactures and retailers need to get the low cost sets out there so people are not put off by the hobbies high cost!

A quality unit that
1. will not quit
2. has forward, reverse, nuetral, and a horn
3. a 40 watt transformer and
4. a few cars
will get people interested. The next biggest cost item is powered switches (K-line makes a nice 027 for $20 or less if you know where to get it). $5 track, $50 cars, $50 switches, $100 operating accessories is what drives people from the hobby. Don't get me wrong, the high price switches and track with built in beds are very nice (MTH Realtrax, Lionel O....) but not if that is your only choice.

And I wonder about the hobby stores that do not carry K-line sets at less than retail! Haven't they ever heard of a loss leader or does the distributer get too much of a mark up to make it possible!

Jim H

[majorjkg]

I would like to see an 0-6-0 dockside switcher with command control and railsounds. I guess the current technology is too big for such a small package. Guess I will go with the new MTH 0-6-0 switcher with tender but 17 inches is quite long for a cramped yard -- eight inches would be better!