Good to hear you found your problem. There is nothing wrong with using used switches, but you need to check them before use. Just yesterday I was doing something with some used O27 track and removed a pin. While the exposed end of the pin looked good before I removed it, the inserted end showed signs of discolorization. I ask myself if this is a dissimilar metals problem or a moisture problem. Your 1122E is at least maybe 48 years old. Anyhow good to hear you have things working.
Correct! It was a loose pin. Loose on the switch and the track. "Tightened" the rails a bit; now it is fine!
Thanks again for all the help!
I just took a 1122E and did a stand alone continuity test. The center rails at all three end points have continuity regardless of the direction the switch is turned. I expected this, but did the test anyway. As I said, I remember having this problem at some point and it turned out to be a track pin.
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I would take the switches out of the layout and do a stand alone test of both. Check for operation and check for continuity. If that is ok, then you have something blocking power to your rails. When you say the frogs have power, the longer middle straight should too, as they should be connected by virtue of the construction of the switch. It is also inconcievable to me that both switches would have the same problem if there was a defect. Something is open or something is blocking. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the three end points of the center rail should all be connected, have continuity. The frog is part of one of those end points. Working with the jumper tells me you have a block or open.
I never noticed that Lionel labeled that center rail the "frog rail," but I do see that on several of the service manuals for turnouts. There's nothing like it on a prototype turnout, so I don't know what I would call it, but "frog rail" wouldn't be what I would think of. Of course, it should be connected to the other two center-rail segments.
Bob Nelson
Thanks! I'll have at it tomorrow with a jumper wire and report the outcome!
I have had times when I have used 1122E switches where a track pin on the one side of the switch would not sufficiently conduct power. That could be the problem as I remember trouble shooting it by jumpering a wire. The 1022 switches which are the postwar manual after 1952 or 3 had a builtin power switch. The power went to the leg selected. That didn't exist in the electric switch 1122E.
Please do jump in! The switches are electric. Should have said that.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1001/4368153/24755763/413187590.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1001/4368153/24755763/413187600.jpg
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Bob;
Greenberg's Operating and Repair Manual has it listed as the frog rail. Since it is in the center of the track I assume it carries track power. Why it only works on the turn and not straight is my mystery.
What do you mean by, "the frogs have no power"? The frog should be riveted to the base of the turnout and thereby connected to the outside rails (other than the two control rails). But even if it weren't connected, it's only about 3/4-inch long, not nearly enough to stop a locomotive, and the entire stock rail on the other side of each path is grounded.
Both switches are incorperated in my wall layout storage siding. Switches operate and light up as they should; if I am using the turnout into the siding. One problem exists; if the train is going straight through the switches on the main line, the frogs have no power. Train passes over either of them and stops(if going straight). If I take power from the siding and jump it to the center rail of the main line, all is well. These are 1122E and have the 2 inner rails have insulating pins.
Am I doing something wrong or is there a problem with the switches?
If the controllers are close to the transformer, just connect the controller's common wires directly to the transformer and run only 2 wires from the controller to each turnout.
You're welcome! Thanks for letting me know I helped.
Your just full of info today Bob. i was reading from last post back, and when you mentioned trick, I thought of the 2 wires from the controller to the switch, and then it was right there as I rolled it back.
I spent a good amount of time looking at my 1122s yesterday thinking of how i could add active direction lighting back at my controller or maybe even the path map that you mention. i have to look into some small micro switches and see what kind of an arrangement I can come up with. The best I thought so far is to glue a piece of rounded plastic to the side of the lantern holder to act as a cam. Then somehow i will have to add a switch, and with three smaller wires leaving the switch, route it back to the controller. Lot of work for a toy, but something to do to keep the mind active. Your CD usage on these switches was one of the better ideas, as parking on the switch was always a problem.
Thanks for all your contributions.
It's been a while since I mentioned this idea on the forum:
Some operators like to arrange their controls on a (stylized) map of the layout. A very compact way of handling turnouts is to put a pair of studs in the map at the two paths out of each turnout, each stud wired to one of the switch-machine solenoid terminals. The studs can be simple machine-screw heads. You throw a turnout by touching a stud with a probe connected to the layout common.
Another trick (which also works with regular controllers) is to wire the terminals of multiple turnouts together. This makes a lot of sense for a crossover, for example, where both turnouts would normally be thrown together. A double crossover has 4 turnouts, but actually only 3 turnout states that make sense.
If you're using the track to power the 1122's switch machine, you don't need any wiring between the 1122-100 controller and the transformer, just the 3-wire cables between the controller and the turnout.
Did you perhaps mean to ask whether "to extend the wiring from the switch machine to the controller located near your transformer"? If so, that is no problem. In fact, you should need only 2 wires from each turnout, since the third wire in each 3-wire cable (the one with the spade lug) is just the layout common (the outside rails generally) which is available at the transformer.
The video shows a recent model of an O27 turnout. The earlier ones (1121, 1122, 5122) often have the wires routed so that you do need to take off the bottom of the turnout to get to them. This involves drilling out several small rivets and the riveted end of the post on the bottom of the frog. The small rivets can be replaced by small machine screws. For the frog, drill and tap it all the way through the post and out the top of the frog, then reinstall it with a flathead machine screw short enough not to protrude out the top, whose head will neatly fit into the recess in the bottom plate.
He keeps stressing that the constant-voltage transformer must be in phase with the track voltage. He is wrong about this. Out-of-phase works just fine and can slightly reduce the voltage drop through the outside rails of the track and the wire feeding them.
He ignores the greatly increased danger of coil damage. The cure for that is to power the switch machine not from an AC source (phased or not), but from an electrolytic capacitor (about 5000 microfarads), recharged through a small lamp (53) from a DC source, or just through a single 1N400X diode from an AC source, to supply an entire layout.
It is a momentary SPDT switch. If power to the switch machine is left on too long, it is likely to overheat and be damaged.
Correct the O22 control is momentary, I corrected my response. Momentary is key here because O27 switches remain constantly energized when the control or the anti derail is continuosly energized. This will cause the switch coil to overheat and fuse it'self together as well as melt other components.
O22 switches are designed with momentary contacts built-in so that if you hold the control or stop a train on the anti derail the connection to the coil is interupted.
As for not wanting to change the layout to O from O27 I was once young and stubborn like that. One day after fixing my umpteenth derailment I just decided to migrate to O over time. It took a year or 2 but my O layout runs great today. I can run the trains for hours derail free.
Here is a great video by Lionel that discusses this topic and shows you how to convert an O27 switch to transformer power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0McntbmQ9I
Both the 1122's have 53 bulbs and both work. My wall layout is 027 so I'll keep it that way as all my extra track is 027. Plus I prefer that.
I asked about track power because of see pictures of layout where the switch controllers and the switches them selves were lighted. I guess there was power to the tracks when the pic was taken.
The same is true if a train is stopped on the turnout with the track voltage on. That is probably why Lionel did not make it easy to power the switch motor separately. Powering it from the track gave at least a good chance that the voltage would be off if the train stopped, even if that wasn't a sure thing.
Disconnecting the solenoid after throwing, as the 022 does, would have solved the problem completely, but they didn't do that. As a result, it is highly desirable to use a capacitive discharge circuit if converting to separate power. Fortunately, that is by far the easiest part of the conversion.
The controller is a simple SPDT switch with the bulb wired between the common ground and one of the other contacts.It is a momentary SPDT switch. If power to the switch machine is left on too long, it is likely to overheat and be damaged.
Al, you write "problems" in the plural. Not having the separate-power option is only one problem.
You aren't thinking that the controller lamps' drawing too much current is problematic only for the O27 turnouts, are you? The 022 does the same thing, but with two lamps.
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