1122 turn out question

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1122 turn out question
Posted by trains2353 on Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:46 AM

Picked up a decent pair of 1122 turnouts on eBay. But need to get an operating switch for them. I've been dealing with the Train Tender who is a great guy and very helpful! He has a rewired switch available. Looking at wiring diagrams in the Lionel repair and operating manual, I am guessing the 1122's operate by track current. Is that correct?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, February 07, 2017 10:10 AM

Yes; but, with some difficulty they can be rewired to work from a separate supply.

Be aware that the order of the terminals differs from the 022-style turnout, and that, even with the wires appropriately rearranged, the 1122 will not properly light the red and green lamps in an 022C controller.

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Posted by BigAl 956 on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 12:11 PM

The controller is a simple (momentary) SPDT switch with the bulb wired between the common ground and one of the other contacts. However, you must use a #53 low current bulb. If you put a different bulb in it will draw enough current to make the switch point move.

It is possible, and there are some videos on you tube including one done by Lionel, to convert the switch to transformer power but I'm not a fan of anything O27. If you are just getting started I reccomend building your layout with O track and use 022 switches which will not have these problems.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 12:32 PM

Al, you write "problems" in the plural.  Not having the separate-power option is only one problem.

You aren't thinking that the controller lamps' drawing too much current is problematic only for the O27 turnouts, are you?  The 022 does the same thing, but with two lamps.

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Posted by cwburfle on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 1:58 PM

The controller is a simple SPDT switch with the bulb wired between the common ground and one of the other contacts.

It is a momentary SPDT switch. If power to the switch machine is left on too long, it is likely to overheat and be damaged.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 08, 2017 5:23 PM

The same is true if a train is stopped on the turnout with the track voltage on.  That is probably why Lionel did not make it easy to power the switch motor separately.  Powering it from the track gave at least a good chance that the voltage would be off if the train stopped, even if that wasn't a sure thing.

Disconnecting the solenoid after throwing, as the 022 does, would have solved the problem completely, but they didn't do that.  As a result, it is highly desirable to use a capacitive discharge circuit if converting to separate power.  Fortunately, that is by far the easiest part of the conversion.

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Posted by trains2353 on Thursday, February 09, 2017 8:24 AM

Both the 1122's have 53 bulbs and both work. My wall layout is 027 so I'll keep it that way as all my extra track is 027. Plus I prefer that.

I asked about track power because of see pictures of layout where the switch controllers and the switches them selves were lighted. I guess there was power to the tracks when the pic was taken.

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Posted by BigAl 956 on Monday, February 13, 2017 1:14 PM

Here is a great video by Lionel that discusses this topic and shows you how to convert an O27 switch to transformer power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0McntbmQ9I

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Posted by BigAl 956 on Monday, February 13, 2017 1:23 PM

It is a momentary SPDT switch. If power to the switch machine is left on too long, it is likely to overheat and be damaged.

Correct the O22 control is momentary, I corrected my response. Momentary is key here because O27 switches remain constantly energized when the control or the anti derail is continuosly energized. This will cause the switch coil to overheat and fuse it'self together as well as melt other components.

O22 switches are designed with momentary contacts built-in so that if you hold the control or stop a train on the anti derail the connection to the coil is interupted.

As for not wanting to change the layout to O from O27 I was once young and stubborn like that. One day after fixing my umpteenth derailment I just decided to migrate to O over time. It took a year or 2 but my O layout runs great today. I can run the trains for hours derail free. 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, February 13, 2017 2:58 PM

The video shows a recent model of an O27 turnout.  The earlier ones (1121, 1122, 5122) often have the wires routed so that you do need to take off the bottom of the turnout to get to them.  This involves drilling out several small rivets and the riveted end of the post on the bottom of the frog.  The small rivets can be replaced by small machine screws.  For the frog, drill and tap it all the way through the post and out the top of the frog, then reinstall it with a flathead machine screw short enough not to protrude out the top, whose head will neatly fit into the recess in the bottom plate.

He keeps stressing that the constant-voltage transformer must be in phase with the track voltage.  He is wrong about this.  Out-of-phase works just fine and can slightly reduce the voltage drop through the outside rails of the track and the wire feeding them.

He ignores the greatly increased danger of coil damage.  The cure for that is to power the switch machine not from an AC source (phased or not), but from an electrolytic capacitor (about 5000 microfarads), recharged through a small lamp (53) from a DC source, or just through a single 1N400X diode from an AC source, to supply an entire layout.

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Posted by trains2353 on Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:22 AM
Thanks for all the into. I just got my switch controller so now I'll do some testing before incorporating the turnouts in my wall layout. For now if all works well, I'll use the track power to work them.
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Posted by trains2353 on Sunday, February 19, 2017 10:29 AM
1122's are working as they should, so I'll start with track power. I will have to extend the wiring from the switch controller to where my transformer is located. Will there be any issues with doing that?
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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:28 PM

If you're using the track to power the 1122's switch machine, you don't need any wiring between the 1122-100 controller and the transformer, just the 3-wire cables between the controller and the turnout.

Did you perhaps mean to ask whether "to extend the wiring from the switch machine to the controller located near your transformer"?  If so, that is no problem.  In fact, you should need only 2 wires from each turnout, since the third wire in each 3-wire cable (the one with the spade lug) is just the layout common (the outside rails generally) which is available at the transformer.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:44 PM

It's been a while since I mentioned this idea on the forum:

Some operators like to arrange their controls on a (stylized) map of the layout.  A very compact way of handling turnouts is to put a pair of studs in the map at the two paths out of each turnout, each stud wired to one of the switch-machine solenoid terminals.  The studs can be simple machine-screw heads.  You throw a turnout by touching a stud with a probe connected to the layout common.

Another trick (which also works with regular controllers) is to wire the terminals of multiple turnouts together.  This makes a lot of sense for a crossover, for example, where both turnouts would normally be thrown together.  A double crossover has 4 turnouts, but actually only 3 turnout states that make sense.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by alank on Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:22 PM

Your just full of info today Bob.   i was reading from last post back, and when you mentioned trick, I thought of the 2 wires from the controller to the switch, and then it was right there as I rolled it back.

I spent a good amount of time looking at my 1122s yesterday thinking of how i could add active direction lighting back at my controller or maybe even the path map that you mention.  i have to look into some small micro switches and see what kind of an arrangement I can come up with.   The best I thought so far is to glue a piece of rounded plastic to the side of the lantern holder to act as a cam. Then somehow i will have to add a switch, and with three smaller wires leaving the switch, route it back to the controller.  Lot of work for a toy, but something to do to keep the mind active.   Your CD usage on these switches was one of the better ideas, as parking  on the switch was always a problem.

Thanks for all your contributions.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:25 PM

You're welcome!  Thanks for letting me know I helped.

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Posted by trains2353 on Monday, February 20, 2017 2:43 PM
I was referring to wires from switch machine to the controller located near your transformer. Have to get some 3 wire cables.
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, February 20, 2017 4:39 PM

If the controllers are close to the transformer, just connect the controller's common wires directly to the transformer and run only 2 wires from the controller to each turnout.

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Posted by trains2353 on Thursday, March 02, 2017 12:26 PM

Both switches are incorperated in my wall layout storage siding. Switches operate and light up as they should; if I am using the turnout into the siding. One problem exists; if the train is going straight through the switches on the main line, the frogs have no power. Train passes over either of them and stops(if going straight). If I take power from the siding and jump it to the center rail of the main line, all is well. These are 1122E and have the 2 inner rails have insulating pins.

Am I doing something wrong or is there a problem with the switches?

 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, March 02, 2017 4:12 PM

What do you mean by, "the frogs have no power"?  The frog should be riveted to the base of the turnout and thereby connected to the outside rails (other than the two control rails).  But even if it weren't connected, it's only about 3/4-inch long, not nearly enough to stop a locomotive, and the entire stock rail on the other side of each path is grounded.

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Posted by trains2353 on Thursday, March 02, 2017 4:31 PM

Bob;

Greenberg's Operating and Repair Manual has it listed as the frog rail. Since it is in the center of the track I assume it carries track power. Why it only works on the turn and not straight is my mystery.

http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1001/4368153/24755763/413187590.jpg

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Posted by alank on Thursday, March 02, 2017 4:41 PM

Deleting content of post  

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Posted by trains2353 on Thursday, March 02, 2017 4:46 PM
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Posted by alank on Thursday, March 02, 2017 4:56 PM

I have had times when I have used 1122E switches where a track pin on the one side of the switch would not sufficiently conduct power.   That could be the problem as I remember trouble shooting it by jumpering a wire.   The 1022 switches which are the postwar manual after 1952 or 3 had a builtin power switch.   The power went to the leg selected.   That didn't exist in the electric switch 1122E.

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Posted by trains2353 on Thursday, March 02, 2017 5:04 PM

Thanks! I'll have at it tomorrow with a jumper wire and report the outcome!

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Posted by alank on Thursday, March 02, 2017 5:42 PM

I just took a 1122E and did a stand alone continuity test.  The center rails at all three end points have continuity regardless of the direction the switch is turned.  I expected this, but did the test anyway.  As I said, I remember having this problem at some point and it turned out to be a track pin.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, March 03, 2017 9:11 AM

I never noticed that Lionel labeled that center rail the "frog rail," but I do see that on several of the service manuals for turnouts.  There's nothing like it on a prototype turnout, so I don't know what I would call it, but "frog rail" wouldn't be what I would think of.  Of course, it should be connected to the other two center-rail segments.

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Posted by trains2353 on Sunday, March 05, 2017 10:10 AM
I made an error in my post. The "frogs" have power in both switches. The longer middle straight rail does not. This is happening on both switches on my siding. So I made a jumper wire from the siding to the center rail of the mail line(between the 2 turnouts), and all works well now. I will change pins sometime, but for now I can run trains.
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Posted by alank on Sunday, March 05, 2017 7:34 PM

I would take the switches out of the layout and do a stand alone test of both.  Check for operation and check for continuity.  If that is ok, then you have something blocking power to your rails.   When you say the frogs have power, the longer middle straight should too, as they should be connected by virtue of the construction of the switch.   It is also inconcievable to me that both switches would have the same problem if there was a defect.  Something is open or something is blocking.   Like I mentioned in an earlier post, the three end points of the center rail should all be connected, have continuity.  The frog is part of one of those end points.  Working with the jumper tells me you have a block or open.

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Posted by trains2353 on Monday, March 06, 2017 6:47 AM
I believe it is a bad or rusty pin. I got it working but there is a loss of power after an engine passes through the switch. It occurs in both directions. I will pull the switches and check all the pins. Next time I will be more careful with used switches. Thanks to all who responded!

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