As has been posted there are other places to discuss politics and the economy. I don't come here to read people's thoughts on the matter. Nor do I come here to read about what the CEO of company XYZ makes.
They say confession's good for the soul, so...
I'm the one who mentioned a politician's name that Bob edited out, but just so everyone knows, it was neither a "for or against" statement, just an attempt at humor on my part. I'm not mad at Bob for erasing it, it's a judgement call on his part and he let the rest of the comment stand.
Fair enough Bob, You had deleted the politicians name before I had seen it, so there had been a political side that I was not aware of.
I never said anything about consumers not having a choice, and without rereading the thread, I don't remember anyone else saying it either.
My point was that, the labor who actually produce these things is denied a living wage, because it is too expensive, yet at the same time, the CEO's and others in the management end are making obscene salaries in comparison, but that is not an issue. This would be akin to a man starving to death because he couldn't afford Filet Mingon and Lobster, but the $25.00 in his pocket would have bought enough bread, meat and cheese to have fed him for days as sandwiches.
I have " Voted with my Wallet", by having not bought any new Locomotives, over the last several years(and there have been several that I would have liked to have had) not because of where they are made, but rather because of the poor QC in electronics, and in MY Experience the manufacturer's not standing behind the product. I had $1,200 and $1,600 locomotives fail with very little run time on them, just to be told Sorry, out of Warranty we CAN fix it, but it is going to cost $$$. My TMCC Crane car failed OUT of the BOX, and anyone in this hobby for long knows that if you WANT something buy it when it is produced, or trust to Lady Luck finding it later. I didn't have TMCC yet, and I was waiting on the MUCH DELAYED Legacy system to FINALLY get produced and distributed. Not wanting to buy a redundant TMCC system with Legacy announced, my crane car went on the shelf awaiting my Legacy set to arrive. Awaiting WAS the RIGHT word too, I waited, and WAITED, and WAITED some more, by the time that Legacy DID FINALLY arrive, and I was able to try out my crane, and find it was DOA, the warranty had expired, and the repair bill for an out of the box failure was $160.00, on a $320.00 item. Even after explaining the situation, I was still told, Sorry, out of warranty. THAT was the BIGGEST reason right there that I quit buying EXPENSIVE equipment that was too likely to fail, in an untimely manner.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Actually, Doug, a politicians name was mentioned and deleted by me. I'm pretty sure that the heads of Lionel, MTH and Bachman aren't going to get upset by this thread, any more than they are going to shift production back to the US of A.
Oh, and consumers were given a choice. TVs, radios, consumer electronics led the way and the rest of the economy followed. Our family bought their first Sony TV in maybe 1968 and first Toyota in 72 or 73. These chats usually omit the role of the customer.
oh, and the thread hasn't been locked yet, has it?
Bob Keller
No one brought up Taxes, Tariffs, or Government Regulations, Neither Trump nor Hillary were mentioned, or any other Politician for that matter, how would the comparison of the wages of production line workers, with the Salaries of CEO's be Political?
If you want to avoid offending the CEO's of companies that advertise in your magazine, that is your perogative, but PLEASE, DON'T try quell this thread on the basis of POLITICS, there has been NOTHING political about this thread.
Bob, I love 'ya and the rest of the CTT crew, you're up there in Wisconsin doing the Lord's work (I've got it on best authority The Man loves toy trains!) and...
1) You're right, this is no place for politics.
2) This is no place to discuss macro-economics, assuming any of us understand them anyway.
But on "the consumers have made their choice" you're only half-right, because what choice do we have? The choice was made for us when manufacturing of toy trains, and other products for that matter shifted overseas. It's either current production if we want to pursue this hobby we love, or it's going on train show raids for the post-war stuff that's out there looking for "Forever Homes."
Look at it this way, we've got a good bunch here. Not only do we care about the hobby, but we also care about our fellow Americans, those who were once gainfully employed but who's jobs are now gone due to no fault of their own. Many of us have been there and can empathise, and how we can empathise! Of course, we know Lionel's not moving back to New Jersey or Michigan, and MTH isn't going to produce in Maryland, but in the meantime we just do the best we can and hope for change in the future.
There's no anger or rage here, just a general sadness over what was and probably won't be again.
Let me say this, this particular Forum is remarkable for it's civility and lack of rancor. CTT should be proud of it and the people who participate in it. I am!
Private message me any and all if you care to discuss this without causing any problems.
Wayne
PS: Normally I'm not this eloquent but I've just gotten home from my favorite Italian restaurant and I've got a half-carafe of the house "red" in me.
In vino veritas, as the Romans used to say, and Roma aeterna est!
challenger3980 Bob Keller Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic. The production workers actually producing the products wanting a fair living wage income is supposedly WHY we don't see much if anything manufactured in the USA, BUT the CEO salaries of presumably in the Millions, is IRRELEVANT. CEO's are ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT Salaries, but the workers on the production line, don't deserve a Living Wage? I guess this logic is lost on ME. Doug
Bob Keller Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic.
Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic.
The production workers actually producing the products wanting a fair living wage income is supposedly WHY we don't see much if anything manufactured in the USA, BUT the CEO salaries of presumably in the Millions, is IRRELEVANT.
CEO's are ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT Salaries, but the workers on the production line, don't deserve a Living Wage? I guess this logic is lost on ME.
I got to agree with Doug 3980 here,
Bob, Give it up. you will never make what your boss and their's do. Worker ant like the rest of us.
Were all Just smucks to the ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT
Been a fun thread, But just another one someone will force Bob, the fall guy to lock.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Bob Kellerthe consumer has spoken and seems they are okay with less expensive goods made overseas
Count me among them. I suggested to MTH years ago that maybe "plastic plate", classic standard gauge locos made of gloss painted plastic rather than rolled steel and castings, would look almost as good as what they were producing for the Tinplate Traditions line and would be a lot closer to something more people could afford. Needless to say they never responded. But I still maintain that it would at least be worth polling consumers about.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
The subject is toy train production in the US, not macro economics. You seem to omit the fact that the consumer has spoken and seems they are okay with less expensive goods made overseas ... regardless of the impact on American workers.
These rants against billionaire coupon clippers who have nothing with the design, manufacture, or production of toy trains are exactly why these threads get locked.
There are a ton of places on the web to talk politics and this isn't one of them.
I didn't really mean to get into the CEO's either, I guess I just don't want to feel bad about buying a Chinese-made Lionel and was looking to rationalize it with myself. I hate feeling like a traitor, but wow, do I like that MTH GE Evolution engine I saw a Grzyboski's Train the other day. I just might get it, and not feel so bad about it!
Oh, and I always had a feeling that Bob Keller was part of the robber baron set, now, I'm sure!
Good point and well taken Bob.
We probably shouldn't bring up robber barons unless we're talking about Lionel's "Commodore Vanderbilt."
And ol' Cornelius really wasn't a bad guy, from what I've read about him he was tough, but he wasn't mean. Jay Gould on the other hand, WOW!
cwburfle But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east. You really don't have to look that far.
But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east.
You really don't have to look that far.
Well, we could get into deep water very quickly here so I'll say this much and no more.
As far as eyebrow raising CEO salarys, and my eyebrows raise just as high as anyones, that's between the individuals and the board of directors they answer to. No more, no less, and no-one elses business.
And again, that's the real issue. Everyone has the right to make a living wage. But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east. Imagine how much today's measure of a living wage could and would buy beyond the staples if some of those staples, like gasoline, reflected a reasonable profit margin.
The reason why Rapido is only charging $100 is mostly due to Chinese labor. The reason why Lionel is charging so much (for something that has a parts count less than 25% of a Rapido passenger car) is due to American labor.
They are both charging what they think the market will bear. The only folks who have any idea how much it cost to make (and import) toy trains are the upper managers in the companies who make /import them.
Joe,Jason Shron has stated, repeatedly, the big expense on their trains is labor. Their latest passenger car (NH 8600 coach) has 226 individual parts on it and is $100 MSRP. I'm guessing that the Made in USA cars from Lionel have less than 50 parts and are $70 to $85. The time spent assembling a Lionel Made in USA car is miniscule compared to the length of time it takes to assemble (and paint) an HO Rapido passenger car, yet the price is pretty high for what one is getting from Lionel (IMHO).
But if you don't believe Jason (someone who has invested heavily in our hobby, including railway and bus preservation), look into it yourself. You'll find the only way to make a small fortune in model railroading is to start with a big one.
For some reason, (namely the cost of USA made Lionel cars at least) I don't altogether believe the Rapido trains statement. As mentioned above, I'd love to see the cut the CEO CFO COO budgeted in for themselves. And, that's certainly their perogative and you can't blame them for wanting to make money, but I think it could be done. Their statement seems overblown to me, but then again I'm not familiar with the company.
Folks,How about news from the source? Rapido Trains has posted many times on this subject. Here's something that was posted on his company's Facebook page on 11/17/16:Rapido Trains Inc. "We would gladly make our trains in Canada. We would need a 7-figure startup grant from the Canadian government and then we would need to charge, literally, five times what we charge now for our model trains. We've done the research - unfortunately the ready-to-run model train industry would not exist if we had to produce trains in North America."
Now maybe it's different in the Classic Toy Train market as perhaps there aren't (generally) as many parts as on an HO scale Rapido model (said to be 150-200 individual parts). Labor is the big charge, and why model manufacturing is (usually) in China.
Firelock76 KRM, I sincerely doubt sky-high CEO salaries apply to the toy train world. If you want to make mega-bucks this isn't the business to go into. Banking, hedge funds, real estate, or the stock market certainly, but the toy train world? I don't think so.
KRM, I sincerely doubt sky-high CEO salaries apply to the toy train world. If you want to make mega-bucks this isn't the business to go into.
Banking, hedge funds, real estate, or the stock market certainly, but the toy train world? I don't think so.
Two thumbs up for Menards, Rob!
I purchased two flatcars from them, one with the VW Bus on it, the other the Pepsi delivery van, and both are top quality - as good as anything made by the big two. The beauty of it - $22 each! Now that is impressive.
I agree. I don't think too many executives are making a fortune in our hobby. Firelock - It is generally accepted that most businesses consider a profit margin greater than 25% successful. I'm curious too what profits our favorite manufacturers are making. As I mentioned earlier, I think the biggest factor is that the "Walmart Effect" (Yes, it actually exists!) has become so ingrained into our culture, that everyone is looking for the best "bang for the buck". Even within our hobby, I just bought 3 new boxcars from Menards a few weeks ago. I could barely get one for the same price from the other manufacturers. Yes, I realize Menards doesn't have to go through distributors, dealers, etc. like Lionel,MTH,Atlas, etc., but there still is quite a price differential even among the imported product.
I often wonder just how much markup there is on the sets. And I must admit, my first foray into the Chinese-made Lionel was excellent. I bought the Santa Fe El Capitan set for $300 and it has run for 10+ years without as much as a hiccup. No track pulling apart, transformer with enough power, no flickering lights. So I have no problem with the quality (minimum experience with the products noted), but there is just something I really miss about the old Detroit Factory. I'm sure some of you who are maybe older than I miss the New Jersey factory as much, if not more.
As far as import quality is concerned I can't say I've got any complaints. Everything I've gotten in the past 15-plus years from MTH, Lionel, RMT, K-Line, and others have been first-rate, amazingly so. Maybe others have had issues but I certainly haven't.
I still wish a lot more were made here in the US, I'd even be willing to pay more for it, within reason of course. Ten, twenty, or even thirty percent more I"d do willingly. One hundred percent or more obviously not, I'm not a wealthy man.
Edited a political comment from last post, otherwise the thread is going nicely!
Everyone's made a lot of good points here, but I have to wonder just what the profit margin is and what it has to be.
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