Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic.
Bob Keller
Good point and well taken Bob.
We probably shouldn't bring up robber barons unless we're talking about Lionel's "Commodore Vanderbilt."
And ol' Cornelius really wasn't a bad guy, from what I've read about him he was tough, but he wasn't mean. Jay Gould on the other hand, WOW!
Bob Keller Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic.
The production workers actually producing the products wanting a fair living wage income is supposedly WHY we don't see much if anything manufactured in the USA, BUT the CEO salaries of presumably in the Millions, is IRRELEVANT.
CEO's are ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT Salaries, but the workers on the production line, don't deserve a Living Wage? I guess this logic is lost on ME.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I didn't really mean to get into the CEO's either, I guess I just don't want to feel bad about buying a Chinese-made Lionel and was looking to rationalize it with myself. I hate feeling like a traitor, but wow, do I like that MTH GE Evolution engine I saw a Grzyboski's Train the other day. I just might get it, and not feel so bad about it!
Oh, and I always had a feeling that Bob Keller was part of the robber baron set, now, I'm sure!
The subject is toy train production in the US, not macro economics. You seem to omit the fact that the consumer has spoken and seems they are okay with less expensive goods made overseas ... regardless of the impact on American workers.
These rants against billionaire coupon clippers who have nothing with the design, manufacture, or production of toy trains are exactly why these threads get locked.
There are a ton of places on the web to talk politics and this isn't one of them.
Bob Kellerthe consumer has spoken and seems they are okay with less expensive goods made overseas
Count me among them. I suggested to MTH years ago that maybe "plastic plate", classic standard gauge locos made of gloss painted plastic rather than rolled steel and castings, would look almost as good as what they were producing for the Tinplate Traditions line and would be a lot closer to something more people could afford. Needless to say they never responded. But I still maintain that it would at least be worth polling consumers about.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
challenger3980 Bob Keller Let's keep the topic on track, lifestyles of the rich and famous and robber barons are a bit off topic. The production workers actually producing the products wanting a fair living wage income is supposedly WHY we don't see much if anything manufactured in the USA, BUT the CEO salaries of presumably in the Millions, is IRRELEVANT. CEO's are ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT Salaries, but the workers on the production line, don't deserve a Living Wage? I guess this logic is lost on ME. Doug
I got to agree with Doug 3980 here,
Bob, Give it up. you will never make what your boss and their's do. Worker ant like the rest of us.
Were all Just smucks to the ENTITLED to EXTRAVAGANT
Been a fun thread, But just another one someone will force Bob, the fall guy to lock.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Bob, I love 'ya and the rest of the CTT crew, you're up there in Wisconsin doing the Lord's work (I've got it on best authority The Man loves toy trains!) and...
1) You're right, this is no place for politics.
2) This is no place to discuss macro-economics, assuming any of us understand them anyway.
But on "the consumers have made their choice" you're only half-right, because what choice do we have? The choice was made for us when manufacturing of toy trains, and other products for that matter shifted overseas. It's either current production if we want to pursue this hobby we love, or it's going on train show raids for the post-war stuff that's out there looking for "Forever Homes."
Look at it this way, we've got a good bunch here. Not only do we care about the hobby, but we also care about our fellow Americans, those who were once gainfully employed but who's jobs are now gone due to no fault of their own. Many of us have been there and can empathise, and how we can empathise! Of course, we know Lionel's not moving back to New Jersey or Michigan, and MTH isn't going to produce in Maryland, but in the meantime we just do the best we can and hope for change in the future.
There's no anger or rage here, just a general sadness over what was and probably won't be again.
Let me say this, this particular Forum is remarkable for it's civility and lack of rancor. CTT should be proud of it and the people who participate in it. I am!
Private message me any and all if you care to discuss this without causing any problems.
Wayne
PS: Normally I'm not this eloquent but I've just gotten home from my favorite Italian restaurant and I've got a half-carafe of the house "red" in me.
In vino veritas, as the Romans used to say, and Roma aeterna est!
No one brought up Taxes, Tariffs, or Government Regulations, Neither Trump nor Hillary were mentioned, or any other Politician for that matter, how would the comparison of the wages of production line workers, with the Salaries of CEO's be Political?
If you want to avoid offending the CEO's of companies that advertise in your magazine, that is your perogative, but PLEASE, DON'T try quell this thread on the basis of POLITICS, there has been NOTHING political about this thread.
Actually, Doug, a politicians name was mentioned and deleted by me. I'm pretty sure that the heads of Lionel, MTH and Bachman aren't going to get upset by this thread, any more than they are going to shift production back to the US of A.
Oh, and consumers were given a choice. TVs, radios, consumer electronics led the way and the rest of the economy followed. Our family bought their first Sony TV in maybe 1968 and first Toyota in 72 or 73. These chats usually omit the role of the customer.
oh, and the thread hasn't been locked yet, has it?
Fair enough Bob, You had deleted the politicians name before I had seen it, so there had been a political side that I was not aware of.
I never said anything about consumers not having a choice, and without rereading the thread, I don't remember anyone else saying it either.
My point was that, the labor who actually produce these things is denied a living wage, because it is too expensive, yet at the same time, the CEO's and others in the management end are making obscene salaries in comparison, but that is not an issue. This would be akin to a man starving to death because he couldn't afford Filet Mingon and Lobster, but the $25.00 in his pocket would have bought enough bread, meat and cheese to have fed him for days as sandwiches.
I have " Voted with my Wallet", by having not bought any new Locomotives, over the last several years(and there have been several that I would have liked to have had) not because of where they are made, but rather because of the poor QC in electronics, and in MY Experience the manufacturer's not standing behind the product. I had $1,200 and $1,600 locomotives fail with very little run time on them, just to be told Sorry, out of Warranty we CAN fix it, but it is going to cost $$$. My TMCC Crane car failed OUT of the BOX, and anyone in this hobby for long knows that if you WANT something buy it when it is produced, or trust to Lady Luck finding it later. I didn't have TMCC yet, and I was waiting on the MUCH DELAYED Legacy system to FINALLY get produced and distributed. Not wanting to buy a redundant TMCC system with Legacy announced, my crane car went on the shelf awaiting my Legacy set to arrive. Awaiting WAS the RIGHT word too, I waited, and WAITED, and WAITED some more, by the time that Legacy DID FINALLY arrive, and I was able to try out my crane, and find it was DOA, the warranty had expired, and the repair bill for an out of the box failure was $160.00, on a $320.00 item. Even after explaining the situation, I was still told, Sorry, out of warranty. THAT was the BIGGEST reason right there that I quit buying EXPENSIVE equipment that was too likely to fail, in an untimely manner.
They say confession's good for the soul, so...
I'm the one who mentioned a politician's name that Bob edited out, but just so everyone knows, it was neither a "for or against" statement, just an attempt at humor on my part. I'm not mad at Bob for erasing it, it's a judgement call on his part and he let the rest of the comment stand.
As has been posted there are other places to discuss politics and the economy. I don't come here to read people's thoughts on the matter. Nor do I come here to read about what the CEO of company XYZ makes.
With the subject being why trains are no longer made in the USA, one could reasonably expect the subject of workers wages to come up, as that has been an often cited reason for overseas production.
In MY opinion any way, if the wages of the production workers is a factor, then comparing the salaries of the CEO, and other higher management is fair, YMMV.
Not every thread will be of interest to every member, so does that mean, a thread that is not of interest to every member should be deleted? I personally couldn't care if the Firebrick in a Pennsy K-4 was Red, Green, Brown grey or PURPLE, but I have seen threads that Ihave as little or no interest in. If the Topic Title is clear enough, I just don't even OPEN the thread on the color of K-4 Firebrick. If I do end up opening a thread about the color of firebrick, I just back out of the thread and let those interested in the color of firebrick continue and enjoy their thread, Because the color of the Firebrick in a Pennsy K-4 doesn't interest ME, should it be deleted? personally I don't think so. It REALLY IS A SIMPLE CONCEPT, if a thread doesn't interest you, back button and move on. I have always been amazed at People who complain that a thread is STUPID, or a WASTE of FORUM SPACE, yet the thread is already into page 3, so SOME people MUST be finding Value in it. Trust me, I HAVE seen threads as dry as the color of firebrick go on for pages, I just didn't READ them that far.
So how do you incentivize a train company that has liquidated its US workforce, moved tooling to China, to restart American production?
Bob Keller So how do you incentivize a train company that has liquidated its US workforce, moved tooling to China, to restart American production?
Great question Bob, but not sure to answer without making some sort of a political statement.
Sadly Bob, I don't think you CAN, at least not without the Taboo, Taxes, Tariffs and Government Regulations.
Also MY understanding that once tooling is IN CHINA, it is there forever, the Chinese government PROHIBITS the Export of tooling, I could be wrong, but I have heard that through several unrelated sources. So to move production from China would require producing (Expensive) new tooling, which I am sure is why there is a prohibition on ssending tooling out of the country.
It is POSSIBLE we may see SOME future new production in the US, but in my opinion, unlikely that we will see the level of production in the past ever return.
Like I said in my original response, at least Lionel is manufacturing the LionScale rolling stock in North Carolina so give them some credit. It's the locomotives with the electronic components like command control and sound boards that just can't be made competitively on this side of the Pacific. Ironically, all of the various electronic devices we are using to have this lively discussion with were made overseas. Imagine what it would have cost to have them made here? If a new iPhone 7 already retails for $600+ , what would you be willing to pay to have it made in California?
I'll betcha if those new Samsung phones were made in Silicon Valley they wouldn't be blowing up the way they are.
The people that bought 'em probably thought "Hot Pockets" were only something you could get at the freezer section of the supermarket!
In the context of the topic, model railroading manufacturing in the US, taxes, tariffs, and such could be discussed without getting political, but keep in mind we're talking 3 S gauge and 4 or 5 O gauge companies that are a very small fraction of the US economy.
Hi!
I really didn't mean to start a political war, or cause any hard feelings, I guess I just wanted to say that I'm sad I can't drive to my Lionel dealer and bring home a US made orange and blue box in a brown shipping container. Ideally I'd be driving a 50's Chevy pickup or 210, but thats a different story...
It is really nice to know that we all have some sort of feeling about the topic, as seen by the good discourse we've seen here.
It is also nice to know we're a good bunch of patriots and it's good to be allowed to discuss such matters.
I like this forum a lot :)
Now if we could just get my 1973 B&O F3 to stop chewing up traction tires!
I just took a look at the heading. 1,315 views! That's remarkable! This thread's certainly garnered a lot of interest.
Good point, Bob. I don't think any of the toy train manufacturers would make a big dent in the GDP here or not. Firelock, as funny as your "hot pocket" post was, I don't think quality control would be any different whether the trains were made here or there. Considering I just did the 7th rear brake job on my 5 old year van (made less than 80 miles from my home) due to a known poorly designed caliper, we aren't immune to quality issues here either.
I don't think it would be too difficult to raise a labor force right now. I know a lot of people who've been out of work for years who would jump at the chance. My brother had a job recently that only lasted 6 weeks that he lost through no fault of his own and that's the first opportunity he has had in the last 3+ years.
Well I did it,
I took the plunge and bought my first non-US-made Lionel F3. I decided upon the Santa Fe F3's from the PWC set, with railsounds. It's the reissue of the 2383 from the 50's and 60's (like you guys didn't already know that!), and I've got to say, its a beauty. Runs great, great sounds, just really, really nice. I hope Ben Franklin forgives me :)
JoeD, Enjoy your train,
I have a late model Rock Island ALCO set. 6-38371
I had issues with it at first and had to send it back to Lionel but I got it on sale and I think the seller was selling off their returns. At any rate Lionel replaced it with engines I had not sent to them but the ones they sent me worked. I like them, but it left a bitter taste. Got to do what you got to do. For Lionel it is all about the % of problems that they can deal with.
JoeD1980, Ben Franklin was a businessman, he'd understand.
As a matter of fact, just about everything manufactured for sale in the colonies back in his time were imports. Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton would work hard to change that later on, but that's another story.
Firelock,
That's absolutely true, even Thomas Jefferson's favorite piano was made in England if I'm correct. Interestingly, as much as I love that time period, my knowledge of Hamilton is sadly lacking. Looks like its time to remedy that soon. You're probably correct about Franklin as well, he'd have a beer and smile, as he was apt to do from my understanding of him.
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