Hi, I'm new to the forum and was wondering if it is ok to discuss the manufacturing (or lack thereof) of trains here in the USA. I'm asking first, as I tried on another forum and was yelled at and kicked off for even mentioning the idea! Thanks, Joe
I don't see why not. Welcome aboard, we have a lot a fun here and really learn from each other.
I don't like that all toy trains aren't made here, but what can you do? It is what it is.
aboard! This is a very laid back place and somehow I doubt the discussion will get "disappeared" (like in some places) unless things turn nasty.
I'd like to see more (all) trains made here but I'm not sure if the market could support it. This is the age of discounting and everybody it seems has gotten accustomed to the idea that everything should be priced the "Wal-Mart way".
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Discuss away!
I, personally, like the postwar Lionel "Made in the U.S.A." but got to admit that there are some attractive foreign-made items at more reasonable prices than would be charged if they were made here.
Of course, like everything else, the quality may not be there.
Guess it depends on one's focus.
Welcome.
I like Prewar and Postwar Lionel, as well as some of the older Modern era stuff, most of which was made in the United States. But I don't think is helps the US economy when we buy and sell old product.
The LionScale cars are least painted and assembled in North Carolina using both U.S. made (ex Weaver molds, I believe) and imported parts. It's the never ending Catch-22 when trying balance labor and production costs (domestic vs. foreign) and what consumers are willing to pay.
Hi all, thanks for responding! I like the idea that Lionel is at least trying to do some production here, and the cars so far are a great first step. That being said, I heard the owner of MTH call it "token American procution" and I hope it isn't just that. I'd love at least one US made engine. So far the cost of the USA made boxcars has been about $5 more from what I've seen. Interestingly, my cousin who is a leader of industry type pointed out that, "you don't know where the plastic came from, the paint, or the metal, and I guarantee you that it can't be made 100% domestically, so why worry, just buy what you like!"
Oh, and not least, thanks for having me!
That's it in a nutshell Rob. Lionel's have always been expensive toys. But in recent years the prices started at levels they were at when made in Michigan and stayed there when production moved to China where it was cheaper to manufacture them. We, the consumer, were not able to benefit from that drop in production costs, at least not directly at the point of sale. But rather we got benefits from Lionel having more cash on hand for innovations and improvements. The cost of manufacture however, have continued to rise.
My guess is for Lionel to achieve total US based production once again the prices would have to rise at least 35%. But that's only a guess. I'm not an accountant, economist or comptroller and I've never seen Lionel's books. I'm just train crazy.
You're not too far off, Becky. A lot of it is the necessary profit margin to be competitive. As someone who has worked in retail for 20+ years, it is frustrating to see the shift in manufacturing to the Pacific without much of a dent at the cash register. Unfortunately, the Big Blue Machine from Arkansas has set the bar on what one wants to pay for anything, and what the perceived value is, whether it's a toy train or a pair of shoes. If item "X" costs $100.00 to make locally or $30.00 overseas, trust me, the flag waving stops in a hurry!!
cwburfle I like Prewar and Postwar Lionel, as well as some of the older Modern era stuff, most of which was made in the United States. But I don't think is helps the US economy when we buy and sell old product.
It only helps our economy when it is bought and sold thru a retail operation would be my say on that. All these sales that are by private individuals I would say not.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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A lot of Weaver products were made here but they got into a bind trying to compete high end with the other companys. Of course the high end stuff would have been imported like the others. Economy wise it would only help if the seller used the money to buy something new but that would only be a very small ripple.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Joe,
While it would be nice for products to be made in the USA the actual cost is very high due to wages & benefits paid to employees, even extremely high CEO salaries. While items can be made overseas and shipped to the USA for less then production cost in the USA. Sometimes quality is better and sometimes quality is worse then made in the USA. Also from what I understand there is a lanquage difference in most overseas companies, even to include reading from the right to the left instead left to right.
Lee Fritz
Everyone's made a lot of good points here, but I have to wonder just what the profit margin is and what it has to be.
Edited a political comment from last post, otherwise the thread is going nicely!
Bob Keller
As far as import quality is concerned I can't say I've got any complaints. Everything I've gotten in the past 15-plus years from MTH, Lionel, RMT, K-Line, and others have been first-rate, amazingly so. Maybe others have had issues but I certainly haven't.
I still wish a lot more were made here in the US, I'd even be willing to pay more for it, within reason of course. Ten, twenty, or even thirty percent more I"d do willingly. One hundred percent or more obviously not, I'm not a wealthy man.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
I often wonder just how much markup there is on the sets. And I must admit, my first foray into the Chinese-made Lionel was excellent. I bought the Santa Fe El Capitan set for $300 and it has run for 10+ years without as much as a hiccup. No track pulling apart, transformer with enough power, no flickering lights. So I have no problem with the quality (minimum experience with the products noted), but there is just something I really miss about the old Detroit Factory. I'm sure some of you who are maybe older than I miss the New Jersey factory as much, if not more.
KRM, I sincerely doubt sky-high CEO salaries apply to the toy train world. If you want to make mega-bucks this isn't the business to go into.
Banking, hedge funds, real estate, or the stock market certainly, but the toy train world? I don't think so.
I agree. I don't think too many executives are making a fortune in our hobby. Firelock - It is generally accepted that most businesses consider a profit margin greater than 25% successful. I'm curious too what profits our favorite manufacturers are making. As I mentioned earlier, I think the biggest factor is that the "Walmart Effect" (Yes, it actually exists!) has become so ingrained into our culture, that everyone is looking for the best "bang for the buck". Even within our hobby, I just bought 3 new boxcars from Menards a few weeks ago. I could barely get one for the same price from the other manufacturers. Yes, I realize Menards doesn't have to go through distributors, dealers, etc. like Lionel,MTH,Atlas, etc., but there still is quite a price differential even among the imported product.
Two thumbs up for Menards, Rob!
I purchased two flatcars from them, one with the VW Bus on it, the other the Pepsi delivery van, and both are top quality - as good as anything made by the big two. The beauty of it - $22 each! Now that is impressive.
Firelock76 KRM, I sincerely doubt sky-high CEO salaries apply to the toy train world. If you want to make mega-bucks this isn't the business to go into. Banking, hedge funds, real estate, or the stock market certainly, but the toy train world? I don't think so.
Folks,How about news from the source? Rapido Trains has posted many times on this subject. Here's something that was posted on his company's Facebook page on 11/17/16:Rapido Trains Inc. "We would gladly make our trains in Canada. We would need a 7-figure startup grant from the Canadian government and then we would need to charge, literally, five times what we charge now for our model trains. We've done the research - unfortunately the ready-to-run model train industry would not exist if we had to produce trains in North America."
Now maybe it's different in the Classic Toy Train market as perhaps there aren't (generally) as many parts as on an HO scale Rapido model (said to be 150-200 individual parts). Labor is the big charge, and why model manufacturing is (usually) in China.
For some reason, (namely the cost of USA made Lionel cars at least) I don't altogether believe the Rapido trains statement. As mentioned above, I'd love to see the cut the CEO CFO COO budgeted in for themselves. And, that's certainly their perogative and you can't blame them for wanting to make money, but I think it could be done. Their statement seems overblown to me, but then again I'm not familiar with the company.
Joe,Jason Shron has stated, repeatedly, the big expense on their trains is labor. Their latest passenger car (NH 8600 coach) has 226 individual parts on it and is $100 MSRP. I'm guessing that the Made in USA cars from Lionel have less than 50 parts and are $70 to $85. The time spent assembling a Lionel Made in USA car is miniscule compared to the length of time it takes to assemble (and paint) an HO Rapido passenger car, yet the price is pretty high for what one is getting from Lionel (IMHO).
The reason why Rapido is only charging $100 is mostly due to Chinese labor. The reason why Lionel is charging so much (for something that has a parts count less than 25% of a Rapido passenger car) is due to American labor.
But if you don't believe Jason (someone who has invested heavily in our hobby, including railway and bus preservation), look into it yourself. You'll find the only way to make a small fortune in model railroading is to start with a big one.
They are both charging what they think the market will bear. The only folks who have any idea how much it cost to make (and import) toy trains are the upper managers in the companies who make /import them.
And again, that's the real issue. Everyone has the right to make a living wage. But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east. Imagine how much today's measure of a living wage could and would buy beyond the staples if some of those staples, like gasoline, reflected a reasonable profit margin.
But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east.
You really don't have to look that far.
cwburfle But look at the obscene lifestyles of the oil tycoons in the middle east. You really don't have to look that far.
Well, we could get into deep water very quickly here so I'll say this much and no more.
As far as eyebrow raising CEO salarys, and my eyebrows raise just as high as anyones, that's between the individuals and the board of directors they answer to. No more, no less, and no-one elses business.
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