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Lionel's Judgement Day

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Posted by jmpmap on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:03 AM
This judge must have been an American Flyer Fan growing up.
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:28 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail


Repeat after me. It's not personal, it's just business..............................
...................As to the award, MTH is not entitled to both the unjust enrichment of LIONEL and MTH's past lost profits, because that is a double award for essentially the same loss. Hopefully the US Court of Appeals will get that right.

Alan


You took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you Alan.

And thank you for your thoughts on the award. I have been wondering how MTH could get both items, the unjust enrichment of Lionel and the lost profits. When I sued a company several years ago, I wanted something similiar, but my attorney said that we could not have our cake and eat it too. I did get a good chunk of cake and it was delicious. [:)]

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Posted by AlanRail on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:39 PM
let's face it. there is no way that this or any other forum can NOT take sides on the issue; Reminds me of a presidential race I know of.

So let's not go overboard when one side feels Wolfe is a god and the others think of him as the devil. He's neither. It is just business.

Repeat after me. It's not personal, it's just business.

Wolfe would be stupid to let a major competitor take an unfair advantage; He owes it to his creditors and actually to us as well.

It is not nice, but it doesn't have to be. . . . again business.

As to the award, MTH is not entitled to both the unjust enrichment of LIONEL and MTH's past lost profits, because that is a double award for essentially the same loss. Hopefully the US Court of Appeals will get that right.

Alan


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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:52 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by three-railer

Well, I don't know about anyone else here, but this whole thing just infuriates me to no end.[:(!] Seems to me that Mike Wolf is just out to destroy Lionel.[}:)] Well this is one person who will never buy anything produced by MTH. My loyalties are with Lionel. Always have been and always will be.

LOL - If it wasn't for Mike Wolf and MTH, you would still be buying the cheap MPC type of junk and paying through the nose. There's no one in O gauge today that can even come close to Mike and his products. I can't wait until he gets control of Lionel, then it will be MLTH.[(-D]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:32 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo

Just learning about the QSI lawsuit. I wouldn't be too joyous if I were Mike. I have always believed what goes around comes around so perhaps QSI will sink MTH like MTH is probably going to sink Lionel. I just hope Mike doesn't get the Lionel name. I prefer to see it removed from the market. Talk about an increase in train values.


What makes you think QSI will have better lawyers then what Lionel retained(I only mention this since L fans seem to think the Lawyers M hired were really slick[;)])? Unlike the MTH/Lionel Lawsuit, the lawsuit regarding QSI actually cuts both ways, i.e. QSI has one against MTH and MTH has one against QSI.
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Posted by okiechoochoo on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:21 PM
Just learning about the QSI lawsuit. I wouldn't be too joyous if I were Mike. I have always believed what goes around comes around so perhaps QSI will sink MTH like MTH is probably going to sink Lionel. I just hope Mike doesn't get the Lionel name. I prefer to see it removed from the market. Talk about an increase in train values.

All Lionel all the time.

Okiechoochoo

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:35 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by ChesBchRy

Everyone just take it easy. After all....." It ain't over 'till
the Fat Lady sings." And she ain't sung yet. There's
still plenty of litigation ahead before the final report
is made. There's another appeals process that Lionel
can resort to, there's bankruptcy, there's even still an
opportunity for an out-of-court settlement that might
be attractive to both parties.

We just have to be patient, watch, wait and not listen
to all the rumor-mongering.

My 2c


Well, the fat lady may not have started singing just yet, but she's been doing warm up scales & is getting ready to take the stage.

Tony
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Posted by 3railguy on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:17 AM
It's pretty ironic how Richard Kughn financed MTH's growth through subcontracting. The Koreans learned to manufacture diecast scale locomotives witth this arrangement. MTH is given much more credit for changing the hobby than they deserves. It has really gone to Wolf's head. He actually believes he innovated todays market. It was Williams, Weaver, QSI, and Lionel who started this trend.
John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 25, 2004 11:00 PM
Well, I don't know about anyone else here, but this whole thing just infuriates me to no end.[:(!] Seems to me that Mike Wolf is just out to destroy Lionel.[}:)] Well this is one person who will never buy anything produced by MTH. My loyalties are with Lionel. Always have been and always will be.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 25, 2004 10:36 PM
Let's not forget that roxin is a QSI dealer; remember the source when reading the comments.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, October 25, 2004 10:09 PM
My viewpoint, if Mike Wolf had anything to do with the name lionel. He has gotten to where he is by lawsuits and copying.
Lets wait and see what happens when the qsi lawsuit goes to court.
Let lionel go chapter 11 and see what mike gets and then let the qsi lawsuit get going.
This is only just starting to get interesting.
I just hope the lionel name is protected and the lionel command control is in the hands of neil young or it gets sold to TA before mike gets his hands on it as he will kill it so only his system is left.
You HO people who read this can stop the influx of mth by abstaining.
dave.
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Posted by 3railguy on Monday, October 25, 2004 4:30 PM
QUOTE: Forget about personalities, rivalries, etc. In the interest of saving Lionel, I really believe it would be best if Lionel ask to be taken over by MTH.


Dave, you listen to T La***oo much.
John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Monday, October 25, 2004 3:50 PM
Gee Thanks alot DAVE. I was just hours away from getting the Chief to loan me $100,000,000 to buy Lionel and now my chance is blown.[:(][:(][:(]

I was going to call it the Buckeye and the Lion Toy Train Company, but now my dreams are dashed. [:D][:D][:D]

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by FJ and G on Monday, October 25, 2004 1:13 PM
Forget about personalities, rivalries, etc. In the interest of saving Lionel, I really believe it would be best if Lionel ask to be taken over by MTH. If this is done, the Lionel name will, in all likelihood be saved. Any other option would do severe harm to Lionel and all of its customers.
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Posted by 3railguy on Monday, October 25, 2004 5:43 AM
[In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger.
/quote]

I agree. It is near impossible to calculate a fair number. MTH may of lost some sales in this matter but competition from Atlas and K-Line took away MTH sales too - legal to boot. .
John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.
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Posted by spankybird on Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:28 PM
As already reported by CTT, the breakdown was:

QUOTE: By CTT
MTH reported the breakdown as follows: MTH's past lost profits $11,978,887.00, MTH's future lost profits $13,794,598.00, Lionel unjust enrichment $12,834,820.00, and Korea Brass and Yoo Chan Yang unjust enrichment $2,167,440.00.


Here is the link

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/196ppdsg.asp

tom

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Posted by espeefoamer on Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:33 PM
Old Joshua Cowen is turning over in his grave[:(].
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:46 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail

Punitive Damages;

Who said anything about that!!...............................................

Alan


The post above mine.[^] And like you I couldn't see punitive damages in a Federal Court for an infringment or trade secrets case.

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Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:32 PM
Punitive Damages;

Who said anything about that!!

This is a copyright and trade secrets infringement case. The damages are stautory ( under the copyright act, plaintiff is entitled to an upper limit for each occurance) and for lost revenue of MTH that Lionel must return AND additional lost revenue If Lionel was not marketing those trains at the same time; if not then MTH's trains would have been worth more and MTH could have charged us more;; see that the screwy thing about the verdict amount.

In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger.

Alan
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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:21 PM
Several years supposedly equals $41M of lost revenue. I'm not sure if one can collect punitive damages in a federal court. [?][?] Did MTH have much pain and mental anquish? [:D] A million here, a million there and before long you have some real money. [:)]

Alan's post about the Federal District judge not wanting to vacate the verdict of the jury is correct. This action from the accounts was not the appeal, but a vacation of the verdict. That is, the Lion said, "Hey judge ol' boy you don't know how to run your court and you didn't treat us right and would you do us the favor of saying the verdict from the jury was not right." And the judge answered, "I think not! Do you think I'm stupid?" And the Lion answered, "Now that you brought it up, yes." And the Lion bought more time from the date of the verdict until the deadline for an appeal. (I believe the first question an appeals court might ask is, "Did you ask the presiding judge if he thought the verdict was okay?")

From the news accounts, the judge is now reviewing a motion for an injunction from MTH to stop the Lion from making, distributing, selling, giving away, (you take your pick) something that has to do with some engine or part.

He will return in two weeks and tell us if he will uphold the injunction. Until then stay tuned for more fun and excitement right here at the CTT forum. [:)][8D][:)][8D]

BTW, the Lion's attorneys probable have some 30, 60, 90 or 120 time frame after the verdict to appeal to someplace up the line like a Federal Court of Appeals that handles appeals from this and other Federal District Courts. This is why things drag on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Been there, done that.

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 24, 2004 3:55 PM
IT's a sad day when Lionel the company that brough O gauge model trains to what they are today is given $41 million in punitive damages for a few parts on a few locos that were alegedly stolen fro MTH. Sounds like a plot by MTH to destroy it's main competitor. .DId MTH suffer the loss of $41 million in sales becuase of this issue? MTH annual sales are far less than this so how can they claim $41 million in damages? . Friends , this is insanity by a court system out of control.
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Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:48 PM
SB

your right it was in Federal Distr Ct . So US Court of Appeals is next BEFORE the Supreme Court. and not the Michigan Supreme Ct.

The Federal District judge refused to reconsider and set aside the jury verdict. By itself not as bad as I thought.

The USCA in appeal, may rule that the District Judge was a fault by allowing in evidence that doubled part of the damages, thus reducing the amount. We need to wait to see what happens in the appeal there.

Meaning that we still need to hear the fat lady sing.

Alan

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Posted by spankybird on Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:01 AM
Alan,

I believe this will go to the Federal Court of Appeals, not the Michigan Supreme Ct. as this was tried in Federal Court not Michigan State courts.

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Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:44 AM
No, it is pretty much over, unless the judge rules differently in 2 weeks.

In order to make this appeal, WellSprings bonded the $41 mil. That means that once the Michigan Supreme Ct refuses to hear the matter; which they may do because both the trial court and the appeals court agree with the verdict; MTH gets paid from the bonding co, assuming WellSprings can't pay.

WellSprings must then surrender the assets to the bonding co. that were used as collateral for the appeals bond OR just pay MTH. This is where the bankruptcy comes in. After selling the assets, not much is left of the company.

The next appeal after the Michigan Supreme Ct. refuses to hear it, is the U.S. Supreme Ct. However, it is really unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Ct will hear the matter and instead let stand the lower court ruling. The reason is that there is little constitutional issues to be decided as the Michigan Copyright Act is not disimilar to others in other states across the country, as it is modeled after the federal law.

Now if the Michigan S. Ct does hear the matter and rules against MTH; then MTH can try to appeal it to the U.S. Supreme Ct.; As an out-of-state litigant, the U.S. Supreme Ct. may decide to hear MTH's side because of the politics in the Michigan S. Ct..... Maybe.

Alan
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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:00 AM
Everyone just take it easy. After all....." It ain't over 'till
the Fat Lady sings." And she ain't sung yet. There's
still plenty of litigation ahead before the final report
is made. There's another appeals process that Lionel
can resort to, there's bankruptcy, there's even still an
opportunity for an out-of-court settlement that might
be attractive to both parties.

We just have to be patient, watch, wait and not listen
to all the rumor-mongering.

My 2c
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Posted by iguanaman3 on Saturday, October 23, 2004 11:03 PM
I may be naive about the specifics of this case but Lionel must find it bitterly ironic that MTH, the company that was created by copying Lionel products, now stands to destroy Lionel for copying some parts on a few locos?. And where did that $41 millon figure come from? How many of those pirated locos were sold? The judge in this case obviously is not aware of the widespread piracy in asian factories. Believe me, making "knockoffs" of copyrighted products is the norm there. Unless there is hard evidence that Lionel management instigated the theft, I can't imagine why the punishment is so harsh. The first thing Lionel needs to do is get some new laywers.
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:49 PM
Maybe *** Maddox will run to everybody's rescue.
romiller
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:30 PM
Just remember that andy said they had a lawsuit coming up with qsi. That could mean that qsi could end up owining mth. Not a bad idea as qsi would also own DCS.
When there are patent infringements in their dcs system that were taken from qsi;s three rail design, that could be a bigger disaster to mth than what has happened to lionel.
I know what the patentent infringements are but am not at liberty to discuss them. Lets just say it looks dull for MTH.
dave.
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Posted by daan on Saturday, October 23, 2004 2:57 PM
Probably some hero drives a toytrain into the headquarters of UP to spread a computer virus... I don't think Lionel will die, it's just making a new start after the UP and MTH claims..
Daan. I'm Dutch, but only by country...

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