QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail Repeat after me. It's not personal, it's just business.............................. ...................As to the award, MTH is not entitled to both the unjust enrichment of LIONEL and MTH's past lost profits, because that is a double award for essentially the same loss. Hopefully the US Court of Appeals will get that right. Alan
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
QUOTE: Originally posted by three-railer Well, I don't know about anyone else here, but this whole thing just infuriates me to no end.[:(!] Seems to me that Mike Wolf is just out to destroy Lionel.[}:)] Well this is one person who will never buy anything produced by MTH. My loyalties are with Lionel. Always have been and always will be.
QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo Just learning about the QSI lawsuit. I wouldn't be too joyous if I were Mike. I have always believed what goes around comes around so perhaps QSI will sink MTH like MTH is probably going to sink Lionel. I just hope Mike doesn't get the Lionel name. I prefer to see it removed from the market. Talk about an increase in train values.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
QUOTE: Originally posted by ChesBchRy Everyone just take it easy. After all....." It ain't over 'till the Fat Lady sings." And she ain't sung yet. There's still plenty of litigation ahead before the final report is made. There's another appeals process that Lionel can resort to, there's bankruptcy, there's even still an opportunity for an out-of-court settlement that might be attractive to both parties. We just have to be patient, watch, wait and not listen to all the rumor-mongering. My 2c
QUOTE: Forget about personalities, rivalries, etc. In the interest of saving Lionel, I really believe it would be best if Lionel ask to be taken over by MTH.
[In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger. /quote] I agree. It is near impossible to calculate a fair number. MTH may of lost some sales in this matter but competition from Atlas and K-Line took away MTH sales too - legal to boot. . John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death. Reply spankybird Member sinceApril 2003 From: Willoughby, Ohio 5,231 posts Posted by spankybird on Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:28 PM As already reported by CTT, the breakdown was: QUOTE: By CTT MTH reported the breakdown as follows: MTH's past lost profits $11,978,887.00, MTH's future lost profits $13,794,598.00, Lionel unjust enrichment $12,834,820.00, and Korea Brass and Yoo Chan Yang unjust enrichment $2,167,440.00. Here is the link http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/005/196ppdsg.asp tom I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com Reply espeefoamer Member sinceNovember 2003 From: West Coast 4,122 posts Posted by espeefoamer on Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:33 PM Old Joshua Cowen is turning over in his grave[:(]. Ride Amtrak. Cats Rule, Dogs Drool. Reply Buckeye Riveter Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Jelloway Creek, OH - Elv. 1100 7,578 posts Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:46 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail Punitive Damages; Who said anything about that!!............................................... Alan The post above mine.[^] And like you I couldn't see punitive damages in a Federal Court for an infringment or trade secrets case. Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004.. Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR TCA 09-64284 Reply AlanRail Member sinceSeptember 2004 From: French Las Vegas 129 posts Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:32 PM Punitive Damages; Who said anything about that!! This is a copyright and trade secrets infringement case. The damages are stautory ( under the copyright act, plaintiff is entitled to an upper limit for each occurance) and for lost revenue of MTH that Lionel must return AND additional lost revenue If Lionel was not marketing those trains at the same time; if not then MTH's trains would have been worth more and MTH could have charged us more;; see that the screwy thing about the verdict amount. In no way could MTH have earned in profit from several locos 20-30 million. And dont blame the judge because he is ruling on the arguments presented by Lionel and MTH. The MTH argument must be stronger. Alan Reply Buckeye Riveter Member sinceMarch 2004 From: Jelloway Creek, OH - Elv. 1100 7,578 posts Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:21 PM Several years supposedly equals $41M of lost revenue. I'm not sure if one can collect punitive damages in a federal court. [?][?] Did MTH have much pain and mental anquish? [:D] A million here, a million there and before long you have some real money. [:)] Alan's post about the Federal District judge not wanting to vacate the verdict of the jury is correct. This action from the accounts was not the appeal, but a vacation of the verdict. That is, the Lion said, "Hey judge ol' boy you don't know how to run your court and you didn't treat us right and would you do us the favor of saying the verdict from the jury was not right." And the judge answered, "I think not! Do you think I'm stupid?" And the Lion answered, "Now that you brought it up, yes." And the Lion bought more time from the date of the verdict until the deadline for an appeal. (I believe the first question an appeals court might ask is, "Did you ask the presiding judge if he thought the verdict was okay?") From the news accounts, the judge is now reviewing a motion for an injunction from MTH to stop the Lion from making, distributing, selling, giving away, (you take your pick) something that has to do with some engine or part. He will return in two weeks and tell us if he will uphold the injunction. Until then stay tuned for more fun and excitement right here at the CTT forum. [:)][8D][:)][8D] BTW, the Lion's attorneys probable have some 30, 60, 90 or 120 time frame after the verdict to appeal to someplace up the line like a Federal Court of Appeals that handles appeals from this and other Federal District Courts. This is why things drag on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Been there, done that. Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004.. Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR TCA 09-64284 Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 24, 2004 3:55 PM IT's a sad day when Lionel the company that brough O gauge model trains to what they are today is given $41 million in punitive damages for a few parts on a few locos that were alegedly stolen fro MTH. Sounds like a plot by MTH to destroy it's main competitor. .DId MTH suffer the loss of $41 million in sales becuase of this issue? MTH annual sales are far less than this so how can they claim $41 million in damages? . Friends , this is insanity by a court system out of control. Reply Edit AlanRail Member sinceSeptember 2004 From: French Las Vegas 129 posts Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:48 PM SB your right it was in Federal Distr Ct . So US Court of Appeals is next BEFORE the Supreme Court. and not the Michigan Supreme Ct. The Federal District judge refused to reconsider and set aside the jury verdict. By itself not as bad as I thought. The USCA in appeal, may rule that the District Judge was a fault by allowing in evidence that doubled part of the damages, thus reducing the amount. We need to wait to see what happens in the appeal there. Meaning that we still need to hear the fat lady sing. Alan Reply spankybird Member sinceApril 2003 From: Willoughby, Ohio 5,231 posts Posted by spankybird on Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:01 AM Alan, I believe this will go to the Federal Court of Appeals, not the Michigan Supreme Ct. as this was tried in Federal Court not Michigan State courts. I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com Reply AlanRail Member sinceSeptember 2004 From: French Las Vegas 129 posts Posted by AlanRail on Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:44 AM No, it is pretty much over, unless the judge rules differently in 2 weeks. In order to make this appeal, WellSprings bonded the $41 mil. That means that once the Michigan Supreme Ct refuses to hear the matter; which they may do because both the trial court and the appeals court agree with the verdict; MTH gets paid from the bonding co, assuming WellSprings can't pay. WellSprings must then surrender the assets to the bonding co. that were used as collateral for the appeals bond OR just pay MTH. This is where the bankruptcy comes in. After selling the assets, not much is left of the company. The next appeal after the Michigan Supreme Ct. refuses to hear it, is the U.S. Supreme Ct. However, it is really unlikely that the U.S. Supreme Ct will hear the matter and instead let stand the lower court ruling. The reason is that there is little constitutional issues to be decided as the Michigan Copyright Act is not disimilar to others in other states across the country, as it is modeled after the federal law. Now if the Michigan S. Ct does hear the matter and rules against MTH; then MTH can try to appeal it to the U.S. Supreme Ct.; As an out-of-state litigant, the U.S. Supreme Ct. may decide to hear MTH's side because of the politics in the Michigan S. Ct..... Maybe. Alan Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, October 24, 2004 12:00 AM Everyone just take it easy. After all....." It ain't over 'till the Fat Lady sings." And she ain't sung yet. There's still plenty of litigation ahead before the final report is made. There's another appeals process that Lionel can resort to, there's bankruptcy, there's even still an opportunity for an out-of-court settlement that might be attractive to both parties. We just have to be patient, watch, wait and not listen to all the rumor-mongering. My 2c Reply Edit iguanaman3 Member sinceApril 2003 From: US 108 posts Posted by iguanaman3 on Saturday, October 23, 2004 11:03 PM I may be naive about the specifics of this case but Lionel must find it bitterly ironic that MTH, the company that was created by copying Lionel products, now stands to destroy Lionel for copying some parts on a few locos?. And where did that $41 millon figure come from? How many of those pirated locos were sold? The judge in this case obviously is not aware of the widespread piracy in asian factories. Believe me, making "knockoffs" of copyrighted products is the norm there. Unless there is hard evidence that Lionel management instigated the theft, I can't imagine why the punishment is so harsh. The first thing Lionel needs to do is get some new laywers. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:49 PM Maybe *** Maddox will run to everybody's rescue. romiller Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:30 PM Just remember that andy said they had a lawsuit coming up with qsi. That could mean that qsi could end up owining mth. Not a bad idea as qsi would also own DCS. When there are patent infringements in their dcs system that were taken from qsi;s three rail design, that could be a bigger disaster to mth than what has happened to lionel. I know what the patentent infringements are but am not at liberty to discuss them. Lets just say it looks dull for MTH. dave. Reply Edit daan Member sinceApril 2004 From: Holland 1,404 posts Posted by daan on Saturday, October 23, 2004 2:57 PM Probably some hero drives a toytrain into the headquarters of UP to spread a computer virus... I don't think Lionel will die, it's just making a new start after the UP and MTH claims.. Daan. I'm Dutch, but only by country... Reply 12 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month SIGN UP More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: By CTT MTH reported the breakdown as follows: MTH's past lost profits $11,978,887.00, MTH's future lost profits $13,794,598.00, Lionel unjust enrichment $12,834,820.00, and Korea Brass and Yoo Chan Yang unjust enrichment $2,167,440.00.
I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com
QUOTE: Originally posted by AlanRail Punitive Damages; Who said anything about that!!............................................... Alan
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