Thanks CTT

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys for the article on Reed and Relay circuitry. you explained it in a way we all could understand.....Tim

[Buckeye Riveter]

I must whole heartly agree with you Tim. Reed switches are used on LGB's trains to make the sound work in all types of weather. The magnets don't miss a beat and are such a simple concept. I wished the article had taken the concept just a little farther and explained in detail how to make a complete signal system for a mainline in two directions. This might entail an offsetting reed switches based upon direction. It has to be cheaper than infrared, doesn't it?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yes Buckeye, reed switches are cheaper than IR, but neither is really necessary for this application. We use 3 rail track. Any trip mechanism is redundant. 15 years ago I was doing the same kind of things with only insulated rails and relays. No magnets to mess with.

Be careful if you try to employ this technique using the wiring diagrams shown. The relays are wired correctly for a latch and release configuration, but the signal is wired wrong consistantly in each diagram.

Instead of both wires going from terminals on the relay to terminals on the signal as shown, one wire should go from power supply (not shown) to signal, and the second wire should pass through the relay contacts on it's way from the supply to the signal. As drawn the signal has no power. After all this is supposed to be a fancy on/off switch.

Wire it as shown and the signal will do nothing, but the relays will work.[swg]

[Buckeye Riveter]

Big Boy, I had to put my bi-focals on to read the fine print, but on diagram one, the author states that the "signal power supply not shown for clarity". (Kinda poor for a how to do article. I think they should have shown it just once or used a dotted line.) I think what they are trying to show is that the reed and relay circuit should be separate from the accessory power.

Now that I think about it, that is how my Trainmaster SC-2 kinda works. The accessories are run off of a separate power supply and the SC-2 is pluged into the power strip from the wall.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Sorry I missed that Buck, but you are right, they could and should have just drawn stub arrows from one leg on the signal and one terminal on the relay. It would have been clear without having to read the text.

There is another flaw in this system, though it may seem a little silly. No matter where on your train you place the magnet, the operation of the crossing signal will look funny. If the magnet is near the front of the train, it will reach the release point before the train has finished crossing the road. If you place it near the back of the train, the signal won't come on soon enough. If you place the magnet in the middle of the train, and move the reed switches far enough away from the signal, then it looks OK as long as the train stays the same length. This is also only a uni directional system.

I realize that I sound fairly critical of this article, but I have done much more than this when it comes to relay control.

I suppose what I need to do is write an article myself. My system is based on a small electronic time delay circuit. The problem is I didn't design the circuit, so I am reluctant to have it published. Unfortunately I am no longer on speaking terms with the person who did design the circuit. I understand how it works and I have built a lot of them. They aren't as simple as this method, but the results are superior.



Relay control and logic is one of my fields of expertise in this hobby. Most people find it daunting or even scary, and I'll be the first to admit that I did too when I started. It didn't take long however, and I was creatig things like this:



which controlled the layout below.



I will be happy to share the details of this system with anyone who is interested.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Yes, I agree a delay is needed. I would think you would put the on reed switch and magnet on the right of the center rail and the off reed switch to the left of center rail. That is kinda how LGB works their system, but the reed switches are on the tender and the magnet is on the track. Switch the polarity of the magnet and the opposite reed switch activates between whistle and the bell sounds.

I have seen time delay circuits in other model train books for HO.

[Chris F]

Elliot,

Go ahead and be critical![:D] The two green wires going to the crossing gate in the wiring diagram are the power wires - what other purpose could they serve? Though there's a note showing the power connections are not shown for clarity, it looks like they are shown "for confusion"! I also agree with your analysis on the relatively strange operation of the gate.

Reed relay operation still has value for some layouts. You may recall that Stan Roy, who runs (ran?) many trains at once, went to reed relay operation to improve operation of his turnouts rather than rely on their insulated rails. THAT seems to be a much more practical use for a reed relay system since it would reduce the chances of derailments.

[3railguy]

I got my issue today. i enjoyed the 746 article, the Giamo article, and the handyman layout article best. I wonder how many trivet manufacturers read the Julie Laird interview and decided to inquire with her on a liscencing agreement?
I can see areas where the reed switch and relay setup could be used.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Chris, actually the problem that needs to be overcome when using the insulated rail and relays, is relay chatter. I had heard that Stan had gone to the trouble of having all of his wheels plated to help improve electrical contact. A waste of time and money if you ask me. The delay circuit removes that problem, by holding the relay closed between chatters. A half to one second delay smooths out the chattering. That seems like a lot of effort to do the reed switches for turnouts.

The circuit shown is designed to work with 24VDC relays, which are fairly common and inexpensive. In the top photo there are 3 inputs, DC+, DC-, and a trigger from the switch of your choice. I almost always use an insulated rail. DC- is actually the same as ground and is tied the AC ground and to the outside rail, so when the train comes by, bingo relay closed. In the upper left corner of the circuit board is a trim pot. That controls how long the delay lasts once the trigger is not being activated. The trim pot works by allowing the charge to be drained that capicitor, low resistance fast discharge short delay.

Buck, it's not the location of the reed switches between the rails that makes this "flakey". It has to do with where along the length of the train you place the magnet. When combined with the location of the reeds relative to the signal, this controls when the relays are activated, and when the signal is on.

New problem. Would a train with magnatraction confuse this system? It could if the reed switches were placed too low to the ground. That would be a case where it would be better to relocate the reeds and magnet higher.

I like the idea of reed switches, just not for this application. I have an application on my layout where their use would be perfect. In my hidden yard I have all of the trains arriving on a single track. I need to choose between Amtrak, BNSF and CP trains and put them on the correct track. By locating a magnet in the top of the engine and the switch high, I could get one indication. One of the other groups could be triggered by a switch located low. The third group could have no magnet.

[Big_Boy_4005]

One major problem with reed switches is their ability to handle current. In the case of the article, the relays are a pretty low draw, so that is OK. Track power would fry them though. They are available in different sizes though. Chris, did Stan have a relay in line with the reeds used to control turnouts, or did he just use bigger ones?

[Buckeye Riveter]

BigBoy, I again agree with your comment about the longitudinal placement of the reed switches. If I were going to give this a try, I would mount the first switch to the right of center and the magnet, let's say on the engine to the right of center. The off switch would be left of center and magnet on the caboose would be left of center. That would mean the cabose magnet would trigger the off switch and not the magnet on the engine. The question arises about the relative magnetic strength of the magnets and their affect on the other swithch.

I am thinking I like optical sensors better and better for their simplicity.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Buck, If I was going to do this project, I would use the relays with delay circuits and insulated rails.

I would have sit down and figure out the exact wiring, but I think I could do a bidirectional realistic looking system using 2 relays, and 2 insulated sections. The relay logic would be an exclusive or (XOR). Sounds fancy, but all it means is one relay and not the other, so never both at the same time.

No matter which direction the train was coming from, it would hit the insulated section located a few sections away from the signal on both sides and activate the signal and lock out the other relay so that it could not activate. The engine would trip it, and every car in the train would continue to trip it until the last car passed. Then the delay would kick in and hold it. It would take a little adjustment to get the timing right, as it would be based on the speed of the train.

If you really want to get fancy, you could go to 4 relays, and 4 insulated sections, and do it more like the article, only both directions. Now the delay circuit is only to stop chatter. By the way, no matter what system you choose, if your crossing has more than one track, you can protect them all with one set of relays.

Keep in mind that the insulated rail is 100% prototypical, because that is how real crossing gates work.[swg]

[FJ and G]

I too enjoy these types of articles but I don't see the advantage of the reed switch over the control rail method. Besides, doesn't the magnet have to be in the front and rear of the train to turn it on and off? That means arranging the consist so that the rear car has the magnet. Correct me if I'm wrong on this point.

I can see other applications for the reed switch. For example, if you put a reed switch on a spur leading to an industry and then put magnets under, say a reefer that gets dropped off there, the reed switch could trigger lights, movement, and other activity at that processing plant. Same for other industries like coal (magnet could trigger conveyer belt). Possibilities endless.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah Dave, that was kind of what Buck and I were hashing out about the magnet positioning. That article has two valuable concepts, but they are more valuable taken seperately than taken together as written.[swg]

[Buckeye Riveter]

Yes, Dave that is kinda what I was thinking about. I have a Lionel Hobo Water Tower that plays music. I would like it to be set up so that when certain cars pass by the music begins to play. [:D] I think I would need a momentary switch and not an off/on relay.

Has anyone ever heard ot the Billy Bass Trophy Mount that plays a song anytime someone passes by? I was thinking of ripping the electronics out of that and using it to start the Hobo Tower's music. I think that would be an excellent article for CTT. The title would be "Fish Guts Powers Train Accessories" [:D]

[cnw1995]

Do it Buckeye. I am in the middle of dismantling one of my youngest child's unwanted toys to get at the flasher for its lights to experiment with - fortunately, the whole thing (a Fisher Price firehouse) unscrews.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Doug, Unwanted toys [?][?][?][?][?][?] In about ten years you will be accused of destroying:

1. The best toy I ever owned.[:(]
2. A toy that is now worth over $1,000,000 because it is so rare.[8]

[:D][:D]

We foolishly gave away a Care Bear once. I think it is now made of gold.[:)][:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Yes, Dave that is kinda what I was thinking about. I have a Lionel Hobo Water Tower that plays music. I would like it to be set up so that when certain cars pass by the music begins to play. [:D] I think I would need a momentary switch and not an off/on relay.

Has anyone ever heard ot the Billy Bass Trophy Mount that plays a song anytime someone passes by? I was thinking of ripping the electronics out of that and using it to start the Hobo Tower's music. I think that would be an excellent article for CTT. The title would be "Fish Guts Powers Train Accessories" [:D]

That Hobo Water Tower sounds like a perfect choice for a reed switch. Is that one where you just push a button and it runs through a cycle?

The Billy Bass is on a motion sensor. That is a cool activation method too. I once has a layout set up in a place where there wasn't much traffic. Rather than let the trains just run all day, I bought one of those motion sensor yard lights, rewired it, and plugged my ZW into it. When someone walked into the room, the trains came to life by magic.[swg]

By the way, I'm not sure Tim had this in mind when he started this topic. I think we gave him a little more than he bargained for.[:p]

[FJ and G]

That Billy Bass flopping fish has been around a while. My old boss--who coincidentally, plays with toy trains--used to annoy people in my office by repeatedly squeezing that fish.

Concur w/Hobo Water Tower idea.

Glad I wasn't too far off the mark in my thinking. Sometimes hesitate to ask stupid questions.

[Anonymous]

Well as it turns out this whole thing is more confusing with every post. Maybe the reed switch idea is not worth a crap after all after reading all these post. I think I will go back to the time tested method of touching a bare wire to the transformer terminal as the train passes to activate accessories. Its not fancy but it always works...Tim

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by pigseyes

Well as it turns out this whole thing is more confusing with every post. Maybe the reed switch idea is not worth a crap after all after reading all these post. I think I will go back to the time tested method of touching a bare wire to the transformer terminal as the train passes to activate accessories. Its not fancy but it always works...Tim

Sorry to burst your bubble Tim, it's my fault. This is one of those situations where there are a lot of ways to do something, some better than others. I got kind of hung up on the crossing gate, which may have been a bad example for this system.

Maybe if we just think of this system as a way to turn something on, and have it stay on until it is triggered to turn off. Forget what the device is. You find an application that works well for you.[:)]

[3railguy]

I studied the article some more and it seems like a lot of trouble and expense to avoid control rails. Especially with an AC XING gate that requires only a control rail and a length of wire or a DC XING gate that requires only one relay verses two as the article shows. The only advantage I can see is trains activating the reed switches in one direction by offsetting the magnets and reed switches. However this would render engines and rolling stock uni-directional. There are applications like Dave pointed out where the setup would be useful.

The author pointed out the system allows the use of inexpensive DC relays. True, but you can use DC relays on AC circuits by rectifying the coil with a bridge rectifier (less than $1.00). I've done this for years. Someone pointed out reed switches are used with G scale but G scale is two rail and doesn't have the luxury of a third rail.

[FJ and G]

In addition to Reed switches and control rails, there's a whole plethora of other techniques to try including ITADs, laser detectors, light detectors, dark detectors, pressure plates (probably the worst), motion detectors, and on and on. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

BTW, pictorial diagrams like those of CTT's reed switches are nice; what is really needed is a toy train electronics book for Idiots or Dummies with similar diagrams for every conceivable wiring setup. The pictures could be in color.

An inset of an electrical schematic could be included so that readers would learn the "language" as they see the visuals.

Too often electronics books are written by electricians, for electricians.

Same thing with books on computer languages. They are written with people of a totally different mindset than the average user. Ever see a computer language book? Usually weighs 15 pounds and has no step by step instructions, it's all gobble-de-gook that you have to figure out. Same with electronics. I can understand why so many people are intimidated.

[jprampolla]

Hi Folks,

If I may have a chance to defend myself, the article shows the crossing signal as only one possible device that can be activated by this technique. Any device or accessory can be switched “on” or “off “with this idea. About 10 years ago when I was getting back into this hobby, I had to figure out this technique for myself because I never saw it in any publication. Its beauty is in its simplicity. I hope it will be helpful for those (like me) who are not electronics buffs but want to apply simple, useful, achievable techniques on their layouts.

I am disappointed that the article has been picked apart so, perhaps putting others off of the idea. Not much fellowship here!

Take care, Joe.

[lionelsoni]

In a spirit of fellowship, I would like to suggest a simpler way to do what Joe did, with a single relay and a resistor. The resistor should have the same resistance as the relay coil and be power rated for the square of the supply voltage divided by the resistance. Start by using a relay whose rated voltage is half that of the supply. If you use the 6-volt relays that he recommends, use a 12-volt supply, perhaps something meant for HO trains. Wire the positive supply terminal, the resistor, the relay coil, the normally-open latching contacts, and the negative supply terminal in series in that order. Consider the negative supply terminal to be ground. Now connect your reed switches each between ground and one of the relay-coil terminals. One will operate the relay; the other will release it.

Notice that the reed switches can be replaced by control rails if the ground of the relay circuit is connected to the running rails of the track. In either case, the power supply for the relay can be DC (with either polarity) or AC (with any phase relationship to the track voltage), as long as it is coordinated with the relay type and voltage rating.

It does seem that the crossing-gate example is particularly ill-suited to reed-switch operation. A control rail extending a few feet on each side of the crossing would produce much more prototypical operation, without any need for modification of the rolling stock, location of special cars at the right place in the train, nor restriction on direction of travel.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jprampolla

Hi Folks,

If I may have a chance to defend myself, the article shows the crossing signal as only one possible device that can be activated by this technique. Any device or accessory can be switched “on” or “off “with this idea. About 10 years ago when I was getting back into this hobby, I had to figure out this technique for myself because I never saw it in any publication. Its beauty is in its simplicity. I hope it will be helpful for those (like me) who are not electronics buffs but want to apply simple, useful, achievable techniques on their layouts.

I am disappointed that the article has been picked apart so, perhaps putting others off of the idea. Not much fellowship here!

Take care, Joe.

Joe, I feel like an idiot, I am so embarrassed. It is very easy to forget that there is a person behind every article we read in the magazine. The guys here are really a very friendly and decent lot. If you would hang out here more you would know that.

I think what you are seeing is a group of modelers with a lot of experience, that really only want to be helpful, but have lost sight of the human factor, in favor of the technical. I know that's what my problem is.

In the end it's the decision of the editor as to what articles make it to print. Your's was chosen because they felt that it was right for the larger audience. Congratulations, you made the cut, you're an author. You have even stared down the critics and made them blink.

[lionelsoni]

It seems to me that pretty much all of the criticism of the article that has been posted is fair. None of it is ad hominem. It is too bad that Joe is offended that others see flaws in his relay scheme and in the way it was presented; but accepting criticism goes with the territory when you publish. Neither an author nor a magazine can expect that the readers who buy their work will refrain from pointing out the deficiencies in it as they see them.

Joe asked for a chance to defend himself, which of course he got. However, he did not offer any defense. He just hinted that he admits that the crossing gate is not a good application for his scheme and let us know that he is hurt that we pointed out flaws in it.

I have seen one or two few half-baked projects described in this forum, of which their creators were obviously proud. Those I would not criticize, since there is little chance of anyone's following their example and no point in offending anyone. But a how-to article in a national magazine for which I paid $5.50 is another matter. That magazine itself routinely criticizes the work of Lionel, MTH, and others.

Joe, I'm sorry that you are offended; but I obviously think that that feeling is unreasonable.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Bob, I take your comments as a vote of support. As the one who was most outspoken on the previous page, I just wanted to make sure that Joe didn't think I was rude or being a bully.

I just replied to an email from Buckeye who expressed similar support for for the content of the discussion. This was my reply.

---

Hi Buck, I re-read our conversation too, and all of the other posts, and while I agree that we really didn't say anything THAT bad, I still felt sorry for the guy. From his point of view, he had worked hard to write it, gotten it published, and we burst his bubble.

I tried to stop short of an outright apology, or placing the blame on Neil for choosing the article to run. I think this raises the question are forum participants representative of the larger magazine audience? Some elements of what is published are clearly intended for an audience with less experience than we have.

While we find flaws and fault with the content, this is still just a hobby, and not a matter of life and death, as may have been the case with Kinzu (Viaduct collapse).

I guess in the end I felt like we were talking behind the guy's back and he caught us. OOPS. On the other hand, any author of published material should be prepared to face the critics.

In this case I would rather err on the side of politeness. I haven't gone totally soft.

Elliot

---

Before I started in on the previous page, I asked Big Girl to read the article. Her opinion is even more valuable than mine or any of the more experienced members here, because she knows nothing of relays or any of this stuff. Upon completion, she seemed to understand what was going on, but had questions about some of the same things that were surfacing in the discussion.

Well, now everyone has had a small look inside my head. At least it isn't completely empty.[swg]

[jprampolla]

Hi Folks,

The reed switch and latching relay circuit is the backbone of my layout automation. I use it in several places in various ways. For American Flyer, and other 2 rail people, this is a nice way to activate a crossing gate (or any device) since they can’t use an insulated rail like 3 rail people. The circuit works well, and depending on where you place your magnets and reeds, you can control exactly where your gate opens or closes. Set your reeds to accommodate your longest train. This circuit is electrically separate from all your train power, and for that reason is easier to trouble shoot and wrap your mind around. The article doesn’t claim that it is a better circuit than any other, but I personally love it and would be lost without it. And it can be made to work in both directions: http://yourpage.blazenet.net/jprampolla/bothways.gif This story is about a basic concept, keeping it all simple.

Another example would be to have a gunshot sound effects tape play when an outlaw and sheriff car would pass over a particular area of your layout. You can control the exact place where the sounds would start and stop. Perhaps the giraffe car would activate an animal animation. It could be used to start another train. The applications are endless. One idea that can be applied over and over again once you master the concept. In one application I use the reed switch behind plywood, invisibly. Inexpensive relays and reeds can be used together effectively, and the latching technique of the relay can be applied to other circuits, including an insulated rail circuit.

I accept criticism when it doesn’t have a hostile edge. The circuit works and I am proud of the story, and I hope that others have a chance to use it and won’t be discouraged by the nit picking. Some of you destroyed it, reducing it to something useless and laughable, which is really unfair and untrue.

Take care, Joe.

[Anonymous]

Yes we are all friendly here, and only trying to help each other...THANK YOU BIG BOY, THANK YOU JOE.....Tim