Great Info & Photos thanks for taking the time to share with us! I have some questions -
Anyone have some info on Marx Track? I'm wondering how to sort out my box of track it is mixed Marx 3 rail and Lionel o-27, I once read that the way the rail bottoms either fold up or down is a good indicator. Which is which?
Also I'd be lnterested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some?
I have a Union Pacific tender & Caboose, a B&O Gondola (I was able to make the gondola from a spare parts body with a bad frame and a good plastic wheel frame I had) Did Marx ever make a yellow B&O gondola in this style car?
All my marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse.
-Jason
removed by me.
by 1938, (though there is some evidence that points to late 1937), the development of the Marx 6" tin line reached a state where frame and basic car designs would continue practically unchanged through the next four decades. and though these body styles appeared in many other roadnames and liveries, the core "550" series cars were the first produced and likely the most recognizable as classic Marx tin.
already showing a few of the earlier 8-wheel red frame cars, there is some evidence that the red litho frame 4-wheel cars were the first released with the new frame design, but speculation that difficulties in accurate litho registration prompted the change to a plain black frame within the first year of production.
i've seen two examples of boxed red litho frame sets, and they both contained the same locomotive...
...the black nameplate CV with a black frame rivet tender. i've seen a few examples of the 551 tender on a red litho frame and must admit the red/ black/white contrast makes it sharp looking, but it was never produced by Marx. the 551 tender frame in this style should always be plain black, though missing practically any tender specific details, this car is quite often posed within a freight consist rather than directly behind the locomotive.
the very common Rock Island gondolas were eventually made in a number of different detail color variations, but these two liveries are the only two that should be on the early red litho frames.
two staple fuels of railroading, Oil & Coal were represented (quite regionally accurate, if i might add) with the Santa Fe oil tanker and Northern Pacific coal hopper. the NP hopper also legitimately appeared in a red livery, but personally i think the blue is a better match for the red litho frame.
the last car styles included the blue roof, C&S reefer with doors in the very versatile boxcar shape that went on to sport many different roadnames and liveries, and probably the most recognizable of all, the #556 NYC caboose. other than very minor variations to the graphics, including a few slight changes in the "556" font style, the basic NYC 'classic red' caboose likely appeared in more freight sets than any other 6" tin car.
two sliding shoe pickup powered cars were also made in the short, red litho frame time period but i only have one of the two, the 561 searchlight car which used the same lamp as the 410 searchlight accessory shown above. missing from the picture to complete the entire offering of red frame cars is the 559 floodlight car; two smaller lights mounted on basically the same flatcar base with center rail electric pickup.
as previously mentioned (perhaps a number of times by now), it is unfortunate that body / frame swaps on Marx 6" tin are remarkably easy to perform and collectors should always approach uncommon pieces with prudence. it's hard to say 'never' with Marx, but with a little education, it eventually becomes easy to spot the very suspicious pieces.
cheers...gary
as i mentioned with the military cars, the extended play value of anything on a flat car made them quite popular with the original owners as stand-alone toys separated from their rail car base, the collector effect being that of often finding a flat without the load. this problem is often even more compounded when a relative eventually discovers an old set but doesn't make the connection thus selling the train and loads separately.
[note: reformat fix: 16 Aug]
Gary brought up a good point about CV's - and Marx locomotives in general, since most of them came in electric and windup versions - when it comes to identifying motors in pictures. I think we may have touched on this before, but always look carefully at the lever - notice that the early electric manual reverse lever is almost square on the end, whereas most Marx clockwork brake levers have a round end. The exception is the reversing windups; they have a lever that is bent over 90 degrees and can be easily confused in a picture with the square ended electric reverse lever. Another tip is to always look at the area between the drivers... with a clockwork, the area is plain, but on an electric you will see either gears or a brushplate, depending on the side. If the underside is visible, the difference between a clockwork and electric is obvious... do you see gears or a sliding pickup? But, when looking at the underside of a CV or Mercury windup, always look for the tell-tale "blob" in the smokebox which would indicate a whistling motor! Many times, the whistle may not work even if the mechanism winds and runs, so the seller may not realize it is a whistler. Usually, the chamber has dirt or spiderwebs in it, so you merely have to take it apart and clean it to make it work. The last thing to look for in a bottom view of a windup CV (in particular, an early windup swing-peg CV) is the hub behind one of the front wheels for the wheel governor. A clockwork swingpeg should have a wheel governor, and even very early CV's w/ Slot & Tab couplers could have one. Also, early Marx electrics have two small sliding electrical pickups, whereas later electrics have a one-piece slider. I'm not well versed on when the change was made, so someone else will have to fill in the details on that!
Anyway, these are a few things that can help you determine a) what you are actually seeing in the picture and b) if the locomotive has the proper motor in it. Marx motors are largely interchangeable, so it pays to learn about the different motors and locomotives so you can make informed decisions about your purchases.
Also, let me just say again how much I am enjoying this thread. I have already learned a lot, and can't wait to learn even more!
- James
tjl0824 Later on (I'm not sure of the exact date) the dummy knuckle coupler was added to the mix, ... Trevor
the more realistic plastic knuckle coupler became the new fixed coupler for 6" & 7" tin and 4-wheel plastic cars, however, for 6" tin car clockwork sets, sliding tab & slot couplers were still used. to make use of the rolling stock already out there, Marx did a great job with a compatible design.
*collector alert*... reproduction plastic knuckle couplers are available. actually a good thing because as rugged as they are, knuckles aren't as kid-proof as the metal tabs and it's not that unusual to spot a broken coupler knuckle or two in a well used set. they are rivet attached to the frame, but Robert Grossman Co. (well known Marx replacement parts source) also has rivets and a setting tool to do the job correctly.
here is another shot of the metal vs. plastic fork/ tilt couplers. the hole in the metal coupler serves no real operational purpose and its existence has been theorized as a registration point for the stamping process. it was a nice innovation to include the tab slot in the plastic version.
frankly i find that the two types generally couple very nicely with the main tuning adjustment sometimes being the proper seating of the two light springs; at times a frustrating chore. from my experience scale cars with either type auto couplers tend to max out at about 15 car consists when the strain on the head end couplers just becomes too great. a slightly serendipitous confidence in that's just about the same number of different scale cars that Marx ever made.
listed in a major auction house lot as "CV Loco, clock work untested; ..." it was obvious that only a very brief look if any at all was given by the appraisers and with seeing what was probably thought to be the standard clockwork brake protruding from the boiler, it was misidentified in their catalog.
even from the small auction pictures (this was only 1 piece of the lot along with 11 early frame cars), it was easy to spot the swing peg coupler and from my winning bid i would have been happy to get an early clockwork CV, but to my surprise, what arrived was an early electric CV.
possibly only made in 1934, the manual reverse was quickly replaced with a toggling solenoid design making this motor quite a rare find. i only have one other example and it is in an M10000 streamliner (without siderods).
the fanstock clip up front provided an attachment point for the locomotive headlight.
despite the fairly solid C6 condition, as was mentioned earlier, this is one locomotive you wouldn't want to restore. the only exception i sometimes make is to the wiring (often trying to use a period replacement piece if possible) to restore operational capability, but this one as found was fairly sound and not surprisingly for Marx, worked right out of the bubble wrap.
Trevor
The mixing of coupler types in a single consist is one of the less covered topics on Marx that I am glad you mentioned.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
overlandflyer literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Here's what "typical" trucks are going to look like
Although I wouldn't call myself a plastic collector, I still have quite a few pieces belonging to this category. To finish up what Gary started, here are the other two types of trucks:
First, Type E, or deluxe trucks
JamesP ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
just another example of what i meant by "consistent wear". i wouldn't expect to find a grimy motor in what cosmetically looks to be a little used set. electrics have even a better indication in that the Marx skid pickups will definitely show wear over time and heavy use. the pickup on the d/c motored Mercury also shows little if any wear which is also consistent with the condition of the shell.
one good thing Greenberg did for collectors was to introduce a standardized means of identification for frames, trucks and couplers. the book uses drawings to show the different types, but i think pictures do a better job especially with 8 wheel trucks. let's start with type A...
Marx 8 wheel 6" tin boxcar with A truck type
type A trucks
found on Marx 6" tin with either tab and slot or automatic, one-way couplers, there are two distinct variations, however, both look identical from a normal side view...
type A trucks - variation
the difference being in a punched out area just above the side frame detail. adding a bit more realism to the 6" tin, 4 wheel frame cars, this first 8 wheel truck was eliminated from the Marx inventory after WWII with the introduction in 1942 of the more realistic scale cars and scale truck design.
Marx 3/16" scale boxcar with B truck type
type B 'scale' truck
one of their nicest looking and lowest riding trucks, the type B (also referred to as their 'scale' truck) appears mostly on metal 3/16" scale cars though it can be found on some early plastic cars and 7" cabooses. literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Marx 3/16" scale passenger car with C truck type
type C truck
the diecast type C trucks were used on 3/16" passenger cars and the (9551) NYC diecast tender. shown here with right hand wound springs, there is a note in Greenberg that pieces with either right hand or left hand springs exist, but i do not have any other examples with the few passenger cars i have.
Marx 3/16" scale tanker with D truck type
type D trucks - (top to bottom) RH springs, LH springs, worn die embossing
why Marx abandoned the scale B trucks on its 3/16" scale cars later in their production was probably due to their initial use to raise the heights for compatibility with their 7" sets of the early 1950's, but regardless of the reason, the change spelled the end of their albeit small but scale 'looking' O gauge and Marx eventually switched the use of scale to refer to their later 1950's venture into HO.
the spring winding orientation is much more evident in the D trucks and examples of both right hand and left hand wound springs can easily be found. late in their production, the stamping dies really started to show wear with much of the detail blurred or missing.
Marx plastic tender with G truck type
type G truck
with the same Bettendorf style as the type B scale trucks, the stamped metal G truck was perhaps the most prolific produced by Marx and was the staple truck for their medium to deluxe plastic cars through the end of their production.
as i mentioned previously, i'm not much of a Marx plastic collector and the last two truck types, E & F, were molded plastic and used exclusively on some deluxe plastic cars and on later 3/16" scale passenger cars. hopefully someone contributing plastic series car information will touch on their use though i might come across a few examples eventually.
overlandflyer James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
Ooops... that's I get for posting when I'm tired! Those certainly aren't 14 spokers on your red Mercury; but I have seen pics of two different Mercury windups with the 14 spoke drivers that have the siderods staked on a cast-in pin. ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
Gary, I didn't take any offense to the post about refurbished vs original... it was worded just fine - nothing accusing about it - and it had very good information that we all need to be aware of. I know that both of us want honesty & integrity in the collectable toy train world.
Having said that, it is an unfortunate fact that at times, refurbished items are sometimes passed off as originals, either on purpose or due to a lack of knowledge. It is a great benefit of this thread that anyone who is interested in Marx can learn what to look for to discern an original from a restored or refurbished item. I hope that other "tinkerers" such as myself will might consider marking their projects in an inconspicuous place, so that future collectors will know the pedigree of those items. Just an idea to help avoid future confusion... now back to the Marx trains!
JamesP Gary, I love those two Mercurys! ... As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... - James
Gary, I love those two Mercurys!
...
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole.
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting...
i know that after a while people would stop believing my "unbelievable deal" stories so i don't really try to pass the blue Merc set off as one and at the time (long before my addiction to live steam) was the most i had ever paid for any train set, but as i mentioned already, ...not easy to locate in original C7 condition. and despite Marx sometimes lack of color QC, this set has unusually closely-matched frames.
Marx is so diverse it's very hard to pick a favorite, but these two sets are definitely in my top 10. i need to find an HO power pack to run to red set more often. the external battery pack takes 6 D cells.
whistling clockwork (l) and 9vdc (r) non-reversing motors
here are the two Mercury motors out of the shell. James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
a good visual to see just what was involved with the whistle mechanism. a fast internal gear train spun a propeller-type wheel inside the housing, while a geared down external wheel, timed the baffle opening for a grade crossing sequence (over, and over, and over ....again). unlike the simple mainspring to wheels linkage, ...so many things to possibly go wrong.
James, ...you have no idea how many times i rewrote that paragraph on restoration an repainting. every time i read it back it seemed like there was a way you could take it that an artist as yourself could be passing off forged pieces, while also attempting to compliment your work. James and others can likely attest to seeing some amazing Marx, not only restorations, but repaints that seriously outclass anything Marx ever produced. and hopefully i got the point across, many times that is the red flag. the finish is just TOO good. i looked at the two Mercury shells this evening while pulling out the motors and it is easy to pick up the original paint runs around the edges in just the right light, but unfortunately very difficult to catch on CCD.
I think the evidence certainly points to the Blue Mercury as being a postwar set; one theory is that it was offered in the 1950 Ward's catalog p. 136. That ad doesn't describe the color of the train except to say it is "...lithographed with authentic details in bright colors." The ad is typical catalog sepia tone, although the train is certainly lighter in color than the black trains around it, the locomotive being comparable in tone to the Disney train above it, and the locomotive is definitely lighter than the remainder of the train, just like Gary's blue Mercury. Marx must have had trouble matching the blue paint on the locomotive to the blue ink on the lithographed cars. The red Mercury locomotive seems to be well matched to the red cars, which is typical of the examples I have seen. The blue cars and locomotives that I have observed seem to be all over the place, shade-wise!
A little more Mercury catalog information: The Mercury first shows up in Ward's 1937 catalog on p. 53 - an electric sparker with a grill decal above the headlight... presumably in gray. It has a 6" tin freight train with Tab & Slot couplers. I have a partial picture of what is reportedly a Sears 1938 catalog (must be the Wishbook, it's not the same as the '38 fall catalog) that shows a non-sparking electric articulated. Sears has a wind-up reversing articulated Mercury in the 1939 Fall catalog, p. 895... for the low price of $1.00! Just a few of the early advertisements; one of these days I will go through and attempt to document the Merc timeline in a similar manner to the CV's.
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. I have also seen windup Mercurys (and one 591) with this same staked siderod. I wish there was a timeline correlation with the transition from the windup motor w/ ratchet to the windup motor w/ ratcheting gear and the change from 7 spoke stamped drivers to the 14 spoke diecast drivers, but I have seen what I consider original examples of both motors with both kinds of drivers. Very confusing... and very typical of Marx!
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... anytime I repaint or customize a locomotive, I take a paint marker and make a note to that effect on the underside of the locomotive somewhere. I also include my name and date for future reference. Like most everyone in the toy train world, I don't want people to think that my projects are originals or some rare variation. I know I would never pass them off as such; but marking them will help keep them from being mistaken for something they are not in the future. This was an idea that I picked up from the guys on the Marx Group... I thought it was a great idea and have used it ever since.
I'm looking forward to more pictures & information!
tjl0824 ... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before. I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners. Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners.
Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
1) here's a channel track passenger train that took me about a decade to find...
Ranger Steel Products (Brooklyn, NY) channel track passenger train
more often seen as a small freight train in green livery, the Ranger RR was one of the few channel track roadnames that had a small variety of pieces beyond the initial set.
2) so you think that's it for the Mercury?
3) as to a home layout, anything that requires permanent space doesn't seem to work well on the upper condo floors and a recent diversion to small scale (HA!) and slightly larger live steam has claimed any leftover garage space, but the "hardwood central" gets setup and runs quite often.
stay tuned. cheers...gary
overlandflyer and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
I could care less what you put on here, just as long as it is related somehow to what is being discussed.
I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
JamesP .... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
.... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
i'm not sure if you observed this James, but when you do run clockwork locomotives, especially at ground level, it doesn't take long before you realize why the front of so many seen for sale seem to be a lot more are scratched and damaged up front than their electric counterparts. if an electric trains jumps the track, without power it tends to stop rather quickly, whereas windup motors know no such limitation and will often continue running until they find a chair, table leg or wall.
i was photographing some Marx 3/16" scale cars today and have a little more editing to do on those, but since James brought up the Mercury, here are a couple i usually have out on display when not running them so they were handy to pose quickly.
Clockwork (whistling) and Electric (9 VDC motor) Mercury locomotives & tenders
big L may have its famous Blue Comet and if you have the $ there are typically half a dozen or more for sale every year, but though only realizing a fraction of the cost of a Comet even on the best day, the Marx blue Mercury set shows up considerably less often. fitted with the whistling clockwork motor, it pulled a unique blue livery version of the standard Marx 6" passenger cars. the tender shown is one of two that were included in sets, the other being a blue version of the standard NYC rivet tender.
Blue livery 6" Montclair coach & Observation Car
it would have been nice if my 3-car set had included both named 6" passengers cars, but due to stock shortages that may have existed on any particular day at the factory, many Marx sets seem to show up with substitute cars and passenger sets were no different. this set was packed with two Montclair coaches, though it could have just as well contained two Bogota coaches or probably the most desirable combination being one each. most Marx 6" passenger sets, even electrics, were typically 3-car consists.
once again Marx got the quality control a little wrong on this set and the locomotive blue is generally much lighter than the cars which are also typically a little deeper blue than the frames.
Greenberg claims that only the red Mercury was made postwar, but with plastic wheels on this set and a definitely postwar box (fairly fatigued so in storage), i've got to think the blue set was also postwar; more than likely early-mid 1950's. i do believe the Greenberg statement that the whistling mechanism added too much complexity to the clockwork drive so was not a very long lived option contributing even more to the rarity of this set.
Mercury locomotive with articulated tender
a slightly more popular livery for the Mercury loco was in red (some with a chrome front) as both electric and windup versions. this example is a later model which was sold as a battery (trackside) operated set which i will describe in a little more detail at a later date.
Mercury locomotive standard tab/ slot (l) and articulated (r) couplers
but being an articulated coupler version, i wanted to show another view of the cab deck difference between the two. what i assume is a very (very) old price of $4.79 stays indelibly marked in the blue Merc cab since it's not noticeable when coupled and the thought of removing any paint with strong solvents is always an undesirable action. on painted or litho surfaces, the strongest cleanser i use is a mild dish-washing liquid.
with these two locomotives, it might be a good idea to again mention that with the right tools and experience as James has shown with his very nice Mercury restoration back to original black, in another modeler's hands could just as easily become a refinish to another color including the rare Marx blue. unfortunately there is no simple test to identify a repaint but after you've looked at enough examples, the inherent imperfections of original finishes (shells were dip painted, not brushed or sprayed) and consistency of wear become the best indications for red or green flags.
Wallyworld, I enjoyed seeing your clockwork layout in operation! You did a lot in a little space, great to see the windups in action.
Looking back through this thread, I noticed that we haven't touched on the Mercury's yet. Of course, I'm a clockwork enthusiast, so that's what I'll concentrate on. I do have to admit, I don't have nearly the variety of Mercury locomotives as I do CV's, but this will get the ball rolling...
First up, a run of the mill clockwork Mercury that I restored:
Nameplates, handrails and the stack are all reproduction parts from Grossman. This is just a typical Mercury with Tab and Slot couplers, windup motor w/ bell & sparker, and blackened wheels and motor sideplates that are typical of postwar Marx windups. Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate!
Another version of the Marx Mechanical Mercury:
I know that it appears to just be an unrestored version of the first Mercury, but this little jewel is a whistling version. You can't tell the difference from this angle, but the windup motor has the whistle that can be seen either through the stack or from the bottom of the locomotive. I mentioned it in one of the CV posts, but it is worth repeating that the Mercury whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered postwar) has a slightly different mechanism than the rarer CV whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered in 1942). It pays to "inspect the wheels" when buying a windup Mercury to see if it is a whistler or not... I wouldn't call them rare, but the plain sparker version is a lot more common.
Mercury's were offered with Tab & Slot couplers for 6" tin trains, or an articulated coupler for the articulated passenger trains:
As you can see, the Mercury on the left has the coupling for the articulated trains, while the one on the right has the good old Tab & Slot coupler. The difference is in the floor of the cab, which is a separate part of the body that is held in place by tabs bent over through slots in the side of the cab. As a side note, the blue Mercury on the left was originally red, it is a custom repaint in a darker blue than Marx used on their blue versions.
I don't have any examples yet, but windup Mercury's were also offered with reversing motors. I know that the windup versions were available in black, red and the rare blue... I won't comment on any other colors - either clockwork or electric - since I haven't had the chance the research the Merc's in the same manner as the CV's.
Speaking of CV's, there is often confusion between the CV and Mercury by some who aren't as familiar with Marx. Here are a couple of pictures so you can see the differences:
Here is a Mercury on the left, compared to a CV on the right. The Merc has a rounder nose than the CV's shovel-shaped snout. The Mercury headlight is smaller than the open bezel used on the CV. Also, the shape of the opening by the front drivers is slightly different... the Merc has a bigger radius as it curves up when compared to the CV. There is also a slight difference in the cab roof:
Note how the Mercury's roof (left) is smooth from left to right, while the CV's roof (right) has little bends just in from the sides of the cab. Another thing to note is that the Mercury only has a smokestack, no domes. A CV will have one or two domes, depending on its age.
So, there is a basic primer on the Mercury... hopefully others can fill in some pictures of the electrics and other variations.
Taking an exception from simply reading this thread, I just wanted to pop in and comment that it is terrific. Marx is very collectable, colorful and fun and affordable. I am glad to see forum members diverging from Lionel ( as much as I enjoy the brand) to cover prewar Flyer and now Marx. To me these threads constitute as much enjoyment as any one article I have read, either at TCA or elsewhere. Keep up the great work.
I just rebuilt my M1000 using a grafted motor using the adapter mounting bracket I got..good for another several decades, beyond my lifetime..rewarding is one word for this sort of enjoyable preservation.. You folks have got the photography down..the images are great!
http://www.youtube.com/user/justtupinsan?feature=mhee
Well my girlfriend grew up around trains. Her dad, his brothers and her grandfather were all model train enthusiasts. She likes most the prewar lithographed Marx.
balidas I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
huh... a girlfriend who like trains? i didn't think they made those. historically i've found it's best not to mention the hobby until about the 15th date.
as with most tinplate, scale is a tough call where prototype examples never existed, but if size really matters, the channel track cars have a gauge of about 1" and the litho bases are 13" x 21½". the Donald & Mickey handcar is the largest piece at 5" in length with the #3462 tender being the smallest at 2" long.
again i'll mention the very obvious, though, that you'll usually be competing with W.D.P. collectors. locating these sets in categories such as tin windup toys typically draws much less attention than those listed under Disneyana. luckily many Marx collectors dismiss the Disney trains as being too "toy-like", ...not sure why, but i find that kind of amusing.
good luck...gary
overlandflyer balidas: Love those Disney windups. .... at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups. Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation. being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era. and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics. Disney channel track base featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe. fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration. Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered. Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens! Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it. well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time. cheers...gary
balidas: Love those Disney windups. ....
Love those Disney windups. ....
at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups.
Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train
Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation.
being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era.
and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics.
Disney channel track base
featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe.
fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration.
Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base
but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered.
Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions
shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens!
Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it.
well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time.
overlandflyer ... a little more channel track when i get the time.
... a little more channel track when i get the time.
i'll begin by saying that any dates given here, and there will definitely be very few, have very little evidence (eg: catalogs, 3rd party catalog ads) to back them up. aside from the early electric channel track train with most references pointing to the late 1930's, i would say as a best guess that all other channel track trains were likely produced in the 1950's and 60's. certainly anything with a plastic part would likely date to after 1953/54 when plastics first started to be used widely in the toy industry.
in the late 30's Marx took their electric Speedway (race car) set, replaced the over-under figure-8 track with a simple oval and designed a new locomotive shell to give birth to the New York Central #5151 streamlined locomotive.
Marx electric channel track train - NYC #5151 loco & tender, #557 caboose & locomotive chassis w/ shell removed
designed not only with a reversing a/c motor, the internal gearing extended to a grit wheel and flint holder up front and under the stack cutout to produce the well known Marx *sparkling* effect.
Marx electric channel track trains
two different consists were offered with the same #5151 locomotive and tender as the motive power. passenger sets included 3-4 #5153 NYC Utopia coaches with a #5159 observation car; freight sets included the unnumbered Merchants Dispatch car, #9712 Comfort Coal Co (Erie) hopper & the #557 NYC caboose. these being the only cars produced, the largest freight set merely doubled up on the hopper and reefer. except for the hopper, all other cars, passenger and freight, were produced with a single die shape; a well known Marx cost cutting practice.
unfortunately the track i picked up with one of these sets is in less than usable condition and in storage, but when i run across it again, i'll try to pick out a good piece or two to photograph. i would have to say a boxed set with operational condition track could be an extremely rare find.
the rest of the channel track trains i have are all windup.
Marx clockwork channel track train
likely packaged as a box within a box, the Marline freight should look familiar as the non-Disney version of the same train; this round appearing as #376 Pennsylvania torpedo-style streamlined locomotive, #3463 "Trainblazer" tender, #9049 GN boxcar, #1914 Virginian gondola and unnumbered (though sometimes mis-ID'ed as #27000 which is a weight marking) Marline caboose.
Marx channel track base
though still presenting a nice lithographed base, compared to the Disney version, the Marline base was far less exciting. whether the Marline train existed previous to the Disney set or was changed when the licensing ran out, is a question i would like to get an answer to. definitely produced after the Disney set, another use was found when packaged with the follow-on plastic version train.
#2065 Twin Train Set
this set featured a double track oval and contained both the Marline metal windup...
#5400 Pennsylvania channel track freight train
...along with a clockwork plastic freight train. through observation, i have see just about all five of these pieces in all four different colors, but in any one particular set, there are generally a mixture of at least 3 and typically all 4 colors. again, any information about known manufacture dates would be appreciated.
another packaging of the plastic train only was this 'Made in Canada" version.
Marx (Canada) channel track train set
containing both the plastic train (all pieces marked "Made in USA") and a single lane plastic track oval (all pieces marked "Made in USA"), perhaps the box was made in Toronto?
Louis Marx & Co., (Australia) channel track train
despite the cover art, the Aussie version included the same plastic train with two small differences. the Made in USA was carved out of the mold and the wheel sets are white rather than black. this box only contained the train so i have no idea if it was sold as part of a set or as a separate sale 'floor train'.
the only other Marx general purpose channel track train i am aware of was the miniature M10000.
Clockwork, channel track M10000
also made as a unpowered push toy, i have seen the small box this came in, but have no idea if it was sold in conjunction with a track or base. again, forum reader input would be appreciated.
a few other special purpose miniature trains were produced by Marx. one of the most interesting to see operate was the Shuttlin' Choo-Choo
comprised of only a single, non-coupled loco and boxcar...
Marx Shuttlin' Choo-Choo set
the two passive switches on the base direct the engine through a repeating pattern of shifting (shuttlin') the "Automatic Line" freight car from side to side.
the final piece i have is described in Greenburg as a Hiawatha-type general purpose locomotive.
Scenic Mountain Express train
though i believe i have seen a slightly different version, this particular small two piece set is usually associated with the roller-coaster-type track sections known as the Scenic Mountain Express. to help it around this extreme graded track, the miniature clockwork mechanism includes an ingenious center cog wheel to assist on the uphill grades.
Marx Speedway race cars
i try not to get distracted by other Marx toys, but the sucker i am, i just can't seem to stay away from the Speedway race car sets i come across while searching for channel track trains. not only are the tiny cars (all with slightly different 'appliances') another Marx litho attraction, but the under-over figure-8 track (in at least 3 known patterns) is also a litho work of art in my opinion.
since this group picture i have managed to pick up the #5 car "Comet", but i'm still looking for the last one (i believe there were only 6 numbers in this style), the #2 car, "Arrow". if anyone knows the whereabouts of one that might be available (in similar condition to the ones above), i sure would like to hear about it (via conversation contact). i have extra #6 and #3 cars for trade.
we now return you back to O gauge.
balidas Love those Disney windups. ....
overlandflyer ...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
I was wondering the same myself! Maybe the "Marx Tinplate Trains" title is scaring them away? I have a few sets plus some loose cars, and I like the deluxe cars the most, but I'll occasionally run across a $20 4-wheel plastic set that I can't refuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hIBmJmz14
The Big Rail set in the video is actually the set that got me started on Marx a little while back. Who else has some good plastic stuff to share?
perhaps the hardest to classify O gauge train car ever made by Marx was the 2572 Ramp Car so i thought i'd post this one separately.
pictured on the box as having automatic (fork) couplers...
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Critter tank
the actual car, though riding on scale (B) trucks, came only with fixed tab/ slot couplers. with the ramp positioned at the end a siding as pictured on the box cover, the car is activated when the pin mechanism just above the coupler contacts the ramp which will tilt the car platform up allowing the load to roll off.
it was slightly longer than (though able to couple to) 6" tin, not quite the length of a 7" car and with Olive Drab as it's only color option, having the scale wheels set it apart from the other military pieces, this was truly an odd piece in any set, yet highly valued by collectors. ...not the least of that reason being the two valid loads it could carry.
shown above as the military load version, the small tank is known to Marx collectors as the "Critter". i rarely like to mention dollar values, but in auction, i've seen sets and even individual pieces containing this small metal tank with it's simple wood turret easily exceed three figures. collector alert, ...there are repro (cast resin) Critters available.
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Deluxe Delivery truck & trailers
in non-military sets, the correct and also very prized load are the Deluxe Delivery trailers typically found as a pair with the litho version of a standard red, 4:" Marx truck.
one of the most desirable niches of Marx collecting has to be their prewar military sets and about a decade ago i got to join that club with the chance to pick up one of the largest sets made; the same 12 unit train advertised here...
1938 Toyland catalog (Phillip Morris Co.)
headed by a special weighted version of the #500 Army Supply Train locomotive, it included just about every olive drab car in the Marx arsenal.
#500 Army Supply Train locomotive & tender
fitted with the standard single reduction motor, in order to pull such a load, Marx added weights fore and aft in this version of the 2-4-2 loco. a look into the cab of one of these models should be enough to ID this uncommon version. the 500 tender also came with a green vs the black painted rear deck. the unweighted versions of the #500 locomotive can also be found as 0-4-0 wheel arrangements.
Olive Drab CV w/ #952 Army Supply Train wedge tender
a few other locomotives can be found in the Marx prewar military sets, perhaps the most desirable being the OD Commodore Vanderbilt coupled to the OD version of the (951) wedge tender.
#897 clockwork and electric OD locomotives
but my favorites have to be the lithographed 897 locomotives made as both a clockwork (with reversing motor) and electric motor version with headlight.
likely one of the major attractions of the military sets in general was the added play value of most of the cars which featured detachable loads and functional armaments.
(572D) Flat w/ olive drab truck and (572A) Flat w/ red airplane loads
perhaps one of the reasons i picked up the initial set at a bargain price was that all three vehicle flats came without loads which is a common occurrence. since then i have managed to track down those pieces with the last one, the OD truck, coming just a few months ago. not bad... only ~10 years to finally complete this set, yet the truck should have a small canopy. originally made from cardboard, this detail is quite rare to find intact. the small Marx plane also came in a decaled canopy model shown, but the portal window version is correct for the military plane load.
(572ST) flats with #5 and unnumbered litho tanks
the third type of mil flat included a working clockwork tank with two types of tank flat cars offered in sets. the unnumbered tank (right) is the one more commonly found in sets and was also finished in a solid OD version. though both are prized by collectors, the less common #5 tank flat is probably the more desirable of the two and unlike the lithographed unnumbered tank that could appear correctly in slightly different liveries (finding the front guns and/ or dome in different colors than shown here), the pictured #5 tank (WITHOUT the flipping mechanism found in other versions of this Marx tank) is generally considered to be the only correct tank load for this flat.
unloaded tank flats & underside tank views
the #5 tank flat car also has a special one piece attachment bracket found on no other Marx 6" car held down by tabs punched out of the frame, another unique feature found only on the #5 tank flat. the underside view of the unnumbered tank shows the torsion spring drive similar to the Joyline (#350 loco) mechanism mentioned earlier in this string. the large wheel up front was spun against a small piece of lighter flint to produce sparks simulating the front guns firing as it moved. found in both versions, i've yet to find an easy way to change the flint in the #5 tank.
(561M) Searchlight Car
the working searchlight cars were basically an OD version of the "civilian" red livery car. the handle is the only variable on this one, seen in red, black or olive drab colors.
(561M) dummy Searchlight Car
however, for inclusion in clockwork sets and also available as a separate sale item on an eight wheel frame, the unpowered (dummy) searchlight cars were equipped with a mirror instead of a lens.
(561G) Siege Gun
but probably the biggest draw for kids to the military sets were the working guns. largest in the inventory was the cannon or Siege Gun flat. able to rotate on its base, a spring loaded handle provided the energy to launch small wooden shells.
(572) Field Gun (left) & (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun
lethal weapon #2 came in the form of the (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun. the only major OD piece not found in the 12 unit set, this one fired a smaller 'shell'. the (572) field gun did not fire a projectile, but was equipped with a handle that turned a small ratchet wheel to at least give it that rat-a-tat-tat sound.
(572MG) Machine Gun car in 8-wheel and 4-wheel versions
a similar handle was mounted on the popular Machine Gun car, though two distinctly different mechanisms (as well as sounds) can be found on this one. look for the different handle positions (fore or aft) to distinguish between the two.
though all of the prewar 6" tin army cars were offered as 4 wheel types in electric sets, not all were produced for clockwork sets (with sliding tab/ slot couplers) or as 8-wheel versions which were only offered as separate sale items and not included in any known sets.
(552M) Ordnance Dept. Gondola
providing a mobile ammo supply, the Ordnance Gondola came as empty, with an assortment (8 AA + 8 canon shells) or fully loaded (30 canon shells). the 12 unit train complete with the fully loaded gondola was likely the reason the AA gun was not included in that set. for the nit-pickers, yes, there are only 27 shells in the gondola shown, ...unfortunately it's well past the era when ammo could be purchased OTC at toy stores.
one can never be 100% sure when not being the original owner, but i am almost certain the shells shown in the fully loaded gondola are original while i believe both variety shells in the 8+8 gondola to be reproduction. both shells and the cardboard insert are currently available as reproduction parts.
(557M) Radio Car
the first of two passenger type military cars was the Radio Car. offered in three different versions, with complete antenna array, with only the long antennas and with plain roof, this was also one of the few cars (no antenna version only) which was made on a sliding tab coupler frame for clockwork sets the other two being the dummy searchlight car already shown and an AA gun car (...still looking for that one myself).
(558M) Official Car
bringing up the rear and riding in style in the military version of the lighted, open platform observation, army personnel can be seen in the windows of these unique passenger litho'ed cars. as mentioned in a previous post, Marx color quality control also came into play with the military cars. side-by-side, it's easy to pick up the more OD or slightly more green livery that can regularly be seen in original paint examples.
Marx-bashed Sinclair-OD frame tank car
of course if you feel as i do, always looking to stretch out a consist, as i said earlier, it's easy to make up a car that never existed out of the factory. though, what else is going to fuel those gas guzzling tanks?
I have mostly American Flyer but started getting Marx trains about a year ago and really like them. I've got several of the 6" tin sets and that is what was under the Christmas tree this past year. The tin plate has a special appeal, and I do not think a Marx train will ever not work with a little cleaning and oil.
Jim
AF1963 How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
i've read through CFR Part 1500.18 - "Banned toys and other banned articles intended for use by children", and while there is no specific paragraph pointing a finger at Marx clockwork motors, there is enough there (spinning, sharp edges, easily dislodged parts, etc) that when grouped, presented a dilemma to the toy manufacturer who probably didn't want to alienate parents.
i've got to think that James guess is correct and his early 1970's set shows what was probably Marx last attempt to satisfy critics by enclosing the motor, but to speculate further, i've got to think there were other extenuating circumstances involved in their decision. by the early 1970's technology finally was presenting an argument with the price of fractional horsepower motors dropping to the point where clockwork mechanisms as mechanical motion drives didn't really make economical sense anymore.
add to this the general dark ages of toy trains starting with the demise of Flyer in 1966 and MPC Lionel starting in 1970. it's surprising anyone lasted much longer.
I wouldn't say that the CPSA of 1972 actually put an end to wind-up trains; rather, it put an end to selling Marx's version of the wind-up train set such as my 526. It is my understanding (from secondhand info, not primary research) that in particular, the 6" tin did not meet the new safety requirements, perhaps due to the somewhat sharp corners, wheelsets that were easy to remove and the resulting loose wire axle that could be easily swallowed by a child. Obviously, exposed gearing on the underside of the older 401's would not be allowed, either. Perhaps the Marx removeable key was a safety problem, too. At any rate, Marx did not survive as Marx for very many years after 1972 anyway. Louis Marx was getting up in years, and sold the company in the mid-1970's. However, other windup toys continued to be around after 1972, so I don't think we can say that the act put an end to windup trains - rather, the Marx tinplate trainset, remarkably similar to what was available in the 1930's, would not meet the new requirements and so it ceased to be sold. Marx had been producing a line of plastic cars for many years already, and these continued to be sold after 1972 - I'm pretty sure that I received my Meteor battery operated Marx train set (with plastic cars) in 1974, very close to the end of Marx.
At least that is my limited understanding of the issue, and would gladly welcome input from those more knowledgeable of the Act's impact on Marx trains. I'm always ready to learn something new!
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