NOT IMPRESSED with Lionel's new catalogue

[Anonymous]

I think that most collectors have forgotten how to appreciate toy trains Lionel should concentrate on mass marketing a full line of train sets and seperate sale items,
Qualityv value and volume should be the hallmarks. Plastic trucks need to be abandoned, Advertising should emphasize play value and toy train operation as a hobby , NOT speculator value The collectors want tiny production runs that could be best accomplished by a seperate collector division Lionel will have to crack the hundred dollar barrier with a small set that has a circle of Fast track, a 40w transformer, a beefed up version of that cheapie Army switcher type remake they made some years ago. one freight car and a caboose. Next step up would be the RS-3 and U-36-B. then the FT, GP9and GP38 then the operator's lineup kicks in from there. In stean, the little scout style engine wiuld be the botton of the line, followed by the Docksider and then the little Hudson. The small Berkshire would cap off the toy steamer line Na inexpensive line of accessoies would also be offered The toy market and the operators are Lionel's real bread and butter. Let the collectors deal with the aftermarket , that is where the real collectible rarities are born anyway. Limited run stuff could be handled by a small division dedicated to marketing Lionel products intended for collectors. Standard "O" stuff could be sold in hobby shops as operator by a marketing staff dedicated to the operator. Collector/speculators who gripe about repeat catalog appearances should stop being the tail wagging the dog. Most collector prices have fallen sharply in the last ten years anyway. Same for hobby shop owners who decry big box marketing of trains. A full line of toy trains MASS MARKETED wil HELP the hobby shop by providing a gateway to the operating hobby. Collector products will also be at the hobby shops. The future would best be served by reviving the "Traditional" and "Collector" lines made in the 1980's and adding an "Operator's" line to the mix. WAL*MART, QVC and other big retailers would carry the "Traditional" stuff, everything else would be found in hobby shops. If something breaks, the Service Station should be quickly and fairly reimbursed by Lionel for warranty repairs., Meanwhile the toy customer will be exposed to the rest of the Lionel line at the service station. This would be an opportuity to sell "Operator line" products to the toy consumer. Remember, for example. you could get O-36 Fasttrack at WAL*MART, but the hobby shop would have the O-54 and gentler curves. Lionel also needs to revive the Model Railroading book they published in the 1950's. The collector is best served by a healthy toy and opereator market.

[brianel027]

romiller, first off welcome to the Forum here. If you have been reading this Forum for any amount of time, it should be obvious that although many of us here have strong opinions, we also love Lionel trains. But it is very important to bear in mind, the name Lionel refers to two things:
First off it is the official copyrighted legal name of a company that used to manufacture toy trains right here in the US, but now has them manufactured for them in China.
Secondly and more importantly to us, it is a name that refers to SO MUCH more than the current company. It is the name that stands for and symbolizes all 3-rail trains. Go ahead and ask the guy on the street... he may have no idea what K-Line, Williams or MTH is, but he knows what Lionel is. The very sad thing on that last thought is that man on the street may have no idea Lionel trains are still being made.

Historically, Lionel trains have always been more expensive than other brands. During the 1950's, MARX trains were commonly called "the working man's Lionel." Unfortunately, Lionel trains today are still expensive, and usually more so than the competition today.

It helps to bear in mind there are factors most of us are not aware of.
1) We don't know the yearly/quarterly return levels that Wellspring (Lionel's parent company) expects from their substantial investment in Lionel.
2) We don't know all the investment costs from much of the totally brand new product that is being introduced... new product that will not make an immediate return on the tooling and die costs.
3) We don't know the inside financial restrictions, requirements and actual operating costs of the company.
4) We don't know what effect the recent $40M lawsuit loss (and the related appeal costs) to MTH will ultimately have on the hobby as well as Lionel.

BUT....
1) We do know that Lionel's manufacturing and production cost are now lower than they have been in decades... the reported average Chinese wage of 50-65¢ per hour is a far cry from the UAW wages being paid to the US workers at the Lionel plant.
2) We do know that a good portion of current Lionel product is made from dies and tooling developed by the original Lionel Corp. or Lionel MPC. Outside of refurbishing costs, we can assume this tooling has long been paid for and has long made profits for the company.
3) We do know that Lionel's MSRP have consistantly gone up... the low end starter set cars were cataloged in 1995 with a $16.95 MSRP. In 2000 they were $24.95 MSRP. Nearly a 50% jump within 4 years. How many working families with children (whom these cars are supposedly made for) have seen a 50% increase in their wages in 3 years? Chances are instead they've lost one job, and taken another at 50% less than what they did make.
4) We all know that there are other companies making other quality trains (sometimes better quality) overseas in China, just as Lionel is, only for much less cost to the consumer. Compare the cost of a basic Williams GP-9 loco to a Lionel one... the Williams engine is better made with more diecast metal construction for less money.
5) We all know that although Lionel is the more recognized name, MTH Electric Trains has done far more in the past decade to raise the bar and advance the hobby (outside of Lionel's creation of Railsounds and TrainMaster Command Control). Lionel has spent much of the past few years playing "catch up" rather than being the leader.
6) We all know that K-Line, MTH/Railking, Williams, Industrial Rail and Atlas 0 (and others) have all given the current Lionel company a very, very good run for the money. It is inevitable that we train consumers are going to make comparisions between the above companies products and Lionel's products - not just in quality and innovation, but in PRICE as well as SERVICE. Even customers who swore they'd never buy trains other than Lionel are now doing so in larger numbers.
7) We also all know that the U.S. economy is still taking a beating, despite the optimism of the introduction of the first Lionel 2004 catalog. National job growth last month was 32,000, far below the 150,000 anticipated by the Bush administration. Retail sales are down nationwide (attributed to rising gasoline prices) except for the high end luxury retailers. Crude oil prices have just hit record high levels this week... which will also raise the cost of home heating oil as well as gasoline. Bear in mind the northeast US has always been the strongest market for model trains (outside of Texas and California) and will feel the full brunt of these rising costs in the winter months - also the traditional time for buying trains.
8) We all know that Lionel has been making an effort to try and reach new customers. By Lionel's own statements, they claim starter set sales and related items have been increasing. But how much longer can or will this continue?
9) We also well know that many many train purchases are being made from mailorder venues after drastic price reductions have been advertised. It isn't uncommon to see blowouts of trains in the range of 40-60% off MSRP. Of course, this is true for other brands of trains too.

I will never say that Joshua Lionel Cohen was a saint. But it is obvious that the original Lionel company not only cared about profits, but they cared about customers. And many of those customers were youngsters who today make up a bulk of today's Lionel customers. Of course those were different times and times have changed. Yet the basic principles of being in business and making quality, competitively priced merchandise remain the same.

BUT it does seem to many of us here that the new Lionel company is far, far more concerned with profits, after-market collectable values and cost cutting than with actually seeing the hobby expand with the very age group that once made Lionel the name that it is today: KIDS!!!

Yes romiller, many of us love the Lionel name, the magic and the memories we have of the fun we had with those seemingly magical trains. That doesn't mandate that we love the current Lionel company, what they make, or how ridiculously high it is priced.

The fact there are now so many other companies making Lionel types of trains and related electronics, accessories, etc. speaks plainly of this. The fact we are all buying them also speaks of this. Lionel hasn't lost our love or affection... just our consumer dollars.

In a statement recently in OGRR magazine, Lionel's CEO said he thought the hobby could not sustain the current number of companies making 3-rail trains. I'm certain he's hoping one of the other company's will go under. The sad reality is that it could just as easily be Lionel as well as anyone else.

[Anonymous]

It's not a hatred on my part, but yet a thing that I hold dear to me and feel somthing thats been special to me is now just another bottom line buisness,,,,Really what I'd like to see Lionel do is take bigger strides in developing the low end stuff,Not a thing wrong with there scale stuff {I just don't have enough money} but I'd like to see them put dual DC motors in there 027 U36B and go back to the Pullmore motors in there 027 Diecast steamers,Sure you might pay a little more but we could run the daylights out of them and be able to fix them when they wear out!!!

[Anonymous]

If you all hate Lionel so much, why even look at the catalog.

[Anonymous]

I might buy Hans the Polar Express set for Christmas. I hope he has his layout built by then.

[Anonymous]

Here's my two cents worth on this matter,,,Tech stuff is great!, I use command,I grew up in the 60's and into the 70's I like pre war, post war, I have alot of MPC stuff,,,,I like it too!!!
But the thing I feel thats missing from the Big L is the ability to work with is the Advertizing and hands on market that use to bring the train to the kid, and the kid to the train.
There seams to be an Errogance to the non $1,000 folks that in my book is where most of us started.
I know for a fact that Richard Kughn himself found his first set in the trash!
I bought my big box of stuff for $5.00 from a kid I ran around with.
And what kept me in the game was the basic stuff ,,,Milk car,Log car,Mail car,Coal loader,
Yes this stuff is out there now but there is so much more that could be done that's easy and fun and not expensive,I'm not sure if Lionel's not interested or they 've stopped thinking like a kid but it's a shame,Staying grounded is always a good thing for any company!!!

[Anonymous]

Doesn't anyone think it is ironic that the Neil Young "Greendale Train" has in its description that Greendale is a "sanctuary from corporate greed."? Look at the price of this set & other products in the hobby by Lionel & tell me that Mr. Young doesn't have his ideals messed up.

I'm here to have fun, not buy in to hypocritcal political statements while draining my pocket book. About the only thing this train might be good for is another place for aging hippies to sta***heir weed.

[prewardude]

Yeah, those switch controllers ARE nice! You're not the first one to mention those, Dave. Too bad that the one thing that seems to be grabbing everybody's attention are lowly switch controllers.

[nitroboy]

Just got my catalog, and really, not impressed too much either. What I REALLY liked was the Fastrack switch controllers. Man, those things look sharp!!! Hope they will take my old O22 switch controllers in on trade for some of those!!!

[Dr. John]

I looked over the on-line catalog today. I must give Lionel credit for listening to the American Flyer fans by reissuing the AF docksider and offering a new Mikado. The docksider is a bargain at $99.

As for the O gauge offerings, I saw a lot that I liked and a lot that did not appeal to me. I'm an old-school traditionalist and wi***here were more post war type offerings. It does seem that Lionel is trying to provide products that appeal to the broad spectrum of O gaugers.

[Anonymous]

Gary

I started this thread NOT to advocate that LIONEL stop issuing catalogues; My intent questions that 1/3 of the items offerred in Vol 2 were either offerred in Vol1 before Or are already sold-out.

Your customers would be equally impressed if they either saw Vol 1 with Vol 2 and no repeats or just saw Vol 2 with no repeats of the items in Vol 1.

If your intent is to just impress new customers then just keep copies of all their catalogues so you can show newbies what Lionel has done before.


Alan

[Anonymous]

Five years ago I began working weekends in a hobby shop the sells everything, RC, Games, Models, etc. When I got to the store, the train department was a collection of mostly inexpensive RTR HO items, and we had "THE" Lionel car. (We had exactly ONE Lionel car in the inventory!) I talked managment into stocking a few Lionel sets and accessories for the 2000 Holiday season. We sold every Lionel set we had, and had to get more from our distributor to meet demands. Now we stock and sell several Lionel sets during the season, and a lot of people who had previously bought sets come in to buy added cars, track or accessories.
A huge part of our success is the wonderful catalogs that Lionel puts out every year. The people that I see (usually seeing their first ever Lionel catalog) are amazed at the amount of offerings, and do not seem to be put off by the cost of the beginner sets. Moms who come in the store do a lot of the purchasing, and the Disney items, Christmas cars, and other cute items are very popular. Also, we have a lot of this group of customers who will upgrade their purchase from the Penny Flyer to the NYC Flyer because they really like the the addition of the Railsounds.
I also see a lot of older guys who had Lionel when they were kids. A good portion of them are amazed that Lionel is still around, and the most common comment I get about the current catalogs is that they remind these guys about the catalogs they had when they were kids, and again how neat the trains still are. A lot of these guys end up buying sets for themselves or for grandkids. A trend I see with this group is purchasing sets that are a little more pricey...(Hobo set, Train Robbery Set, etc). Another occurance is that as soon as people see that we sell Lionel, a lot of old postwar trains come out of retirement (especially during the holidays). We sell a lot of track and accessories to these folks. We could not keep enough Fastrack in the store last year...seemed like everyone wanted at least an oval. All the wives or mothers had to hear was the part about keeping oil off the carpet, and the track went out the door.
From my perspective, the catalogs do a great job of introducing the hobby to newcomers, and for renewing interest in people who had trains when they were kids. About this time of year we are bombarded by customers who want to know when the new catalogs will arrive. In four years I have never had a customer say that they were disappointed with the catalog...even the folks who end up not buying trains still seem to be very impressed by the catalog and the product it presents.

[FJ and G]

no longer even think about big bucks items.

-------------------------------

!!!!!!! agree

Sorry to hear you're a "statistic" on the downsize

[Roger Bielen]

Over the past few years the 2nd edition of the cat. has repeats that many are items that have yet to be shipped from the 1st edition. Hopefully they eventually do show up. The items I'd be hesitant to pre-order are the ones using artist renderings captioned as "concept". they may never be made.

Agreeing with Brian with jobs going overseas the market for the high dollar items has to be shrinking, I for one, having been downsized into early retirement, no longer even think about big bucks items.

[FJ and G]

John,

I agree that one operating system is enough for some of us. I'm using DCS and look more to MTH for products compatible. It's a shame we don't have a standard operating system like everyone else (DCC).

[3railguy]

Yes, the catalog has a lot of repeats.

Lionel has been getting lots of requests for a scale GG-1. Mainly from those of us who have a TMCC operating system. No DCS for me. One operating system is all I need.

[brianel027]

Items being repeated in catalog releases I guess is a matter of opinion. Jim is right that this has been done in the past. Then there was the period of the "Traditional" and "Collector" catalogs, then the Book One and Book Two (smaller catalogs without the repeats). Since we've entered the period of the 100+ page catalog, I don't think anyone wants to be left out of the fray.

For us more knowledgeable train guys, we notice this kind of stuff. But as Jim also mentioned, I'm sure there are folks who will see Volume One and may not see Volume Two. Since the train companies don't do mainstream national advertising, the catalogs serve not only to illustrate the product line, but to also generate excitement and publicity.

I will agree with nblum that Lionel does have probably the most diverse product lines. In the case of the lower end cars, others may have more affordable product, but Lionel has continued to expand the line and change road names frequently. The MTH Rugged Rails line has had zero additions since it's inception other that some cars available in sets only. And K-Line's Train 19 line has also languished in roadnames and new offerings.

In the case of the Greendale set, this isn't for Neil Young fans, even if it is a Neil Young train set. It's for die-hard train collectors who are looking to sta***he set away and watch it increase in value. To them, "Heart Of Gold" has a lot more to do with Fort Knox than with looking for love. Believe me, I've been to loads of Neil Young concerts and don't see many folks who are gonna spend $600 on a train set. The fact Lionel is only making 500 of them proves my point. The die-hard Neil Young fans are still waiting for "Time Fades Away" on CD and the long talked about, way over due Neil Young Archives Collection.

Maybe Lionel should do a "Closing Down the Amercian Factory" Train Set: Flat cars with boxes, equipment and containers heading off to the west coast for the boat ride to China. There could be a separate sale passenger car full of unemployed American workers. There could be a hobo camp accessory only instead of hobo figures, there could be some homeless families with kids.

But just because Lionel (or anyone else) is making product, doesn't mean it is selling. In the 14+ years I've been back in the hobby there have always been blowouts and price reductions. But years ago, it was product that was at least a couple years old before it was being blown out. Now you can see blowout prices on product during the same catalog year it was released... sometimes only months later. I see more and more product being advertised at deeper discounts. Don't kid yourself... NO ONE (not Lionel, K-Line, MTH or anyone else) would be selling train product at 40-60% off list if it was selling well at regular prices in the first place.

Simple reality folks... there are too many high end, expensive scale-sized trains being made today by too many companies with far too few buyers. You don't need to be a mathematician to figure out this spells disaster. As many train guys as there are... with as many going to scale trains as there are, they simply cannot buy as many trains as the various companies would hope for.

And neither MTH or Lionel is going to let up since they are both in a do-or-die struggle for industry domination with eachother that's being fought in the catalogs, hobby shops, YORK and in the courtroom.

In all the recent articles relating to sales, Lionel has said that sales on starter sets and related starter set items are moving up. One might think this is where the focus and attention should be. Instead of using the same old tooling to produce the same old starter items at minimal production costs inorder to help subsidize the tooling investments of the scale end of the hobby. Keep in mind, that with Chinese labor, Lionel's labors costs are cheaper than they have been in decades! I'm sure executive salaries haven't gone down as much.

Even with the much hearlded FasTrack, the only thing a young family can do with the current 40inch diameter curves is have an extended oval on a 4'x8' typical layout. Traditional 027 and O tubular, K-Line Snap Track and Atlas O all offer more layout possibilities on a 4'x8' layout. Yet all the talk is on offering FasTrack in yet larger diameter curves, even though the track was supposedly developed in mind for starter sets and first time customers.

Retail price matters. I'm certain that the discount mailorder places sell out of their allotments before the small local dealers do. It's only when folks can't find the item they wanted from the discount mailorder place, that they reluctantly shop the smaller local dealers. Even then, they try to talk the small dealer down in price - I've seen this happen - even though the mailorder customer price was probably less than his own dealer wholesale.

The model and (do I even dare use this word) toy train business ain't easy these days. It's tough to please everyone as witnessed on the train forums. But that said, I see a few things I like, but those items are at prices (and/or quality levels) that I will not pay for, especially when others make products for far less money.

I like the Lionel U-36B (from the MPC-era tooling) but considering the price and only one motor, I could potentially buy a Willams GP-9, or a K-Line Alco or MP-15 or S-2 for the same or less and get more for my money. With it's die-cast trucks, even the single motored Williams Centercab Swither is a better pulling engine than the current Lionel U-Boat.

Well, all that said, Lionel and the others can do as they darn well please. They can all issue two more catalogs every year if they want to. They can cheapen the low end even more and raise all the list prices to help pay for their lawsuit costs. They can make everything true to scale dimensions with the minimum FasTrack diameter of 6 feet. It doesn't mean they're going to sell more trains though. Oh, and the new unemployment figures came out for my neck of the woods and they're all UP from last month!

I'm personally waiting for the catalogs to be issued in Chinese and Indian languages, since they're getting many of what once were Amercian jobs, maybe they'll want to start buying some trains?

[Anonymous]

ok for some of you who dont mind the repeats, but my catalogue shelf is heavy already.

For the record, the list below gives the pages in the Polar Express cat. then the repeated pages in Volume 2 with a running count of the repeated pages:
.
Polar Exprs Vol 2 TOT REPEATS
pages 4,5 pages 6,7 2
6,7 8,9 4
8,9 10,11 6
10,11 11,12 7 Elvis is new
12,13 16,17 9
14,15 18,19 11
16,17 22-25 13 new xmas boxcars
18,19 32,33 14 new RG set
22,23 34,35 16
30,31 36,37 17 new acela details
34-37 38-41 21
40-41 44-45 23
43 46-47 25 expanded pictures
42 48 26
46-47 50-51 28
48-49 49 29
Special Flyer 54-55 31 GS2 GS64
52-55 58-60 33
56-63 62-67 39
74-75 80-81 41
76-87 82-91 51 the word NEW is used in both
96-97 96-97 53
99 99 54
106-109 106-109 58
116-117 142-143 60 train orders buldg on page 138
TOTAL REPEATED PAGES=60

That's 60 pages repeated of a 188 page cat. (1/3 repeated) and some of it is already out.

I think that One third without counting the usual track and transformer stuff that is always repeated is excessive.


Alan



]

[tschmidt]

Having just seen it online and not in person I thought the catalog was ok. I was hoping to find two things that were not there. One was a work caboose or some kind of matching car for the new TMCC crane cars. I was looking for one to match my Santa Fe. I was also hoping for a station sounds car for either of the 2 ACL passenger trains that were previously released. ( The silver or purple sets)...or a 2car add on set for the purple cars.

The good news on prices is that if I preorder any car from my local dealer it will be at a discounted price.

I guess I'm one of the those who prefer Lionel over other makes. Maybe I am just old fashioned.

Tom

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum
I'd like to see some prewar or Standard gauge repros, but that appears out of the question.

I agree with you, Neil. As I stated on another recent thread, it seems to me that Lionel could do a heck of a lot more with their product line than they are. Let's face the facts: MTH has it all over Lionel when it comes to prewar reproductions. I've bought almost all of the prewar repros that Lionel has done over the past few years (Hell-Gate bridge, #840 power station, etc.), and they were all outstanding products - and they had the Lionel name on them! But alas, it seems that Lionel doesn't want to commit to continue to produce these items. Oh well - Lionel's loss is Mike Wolf's gain.... again.

[FJ and G]

Jim,

I agreed w/ you in my response.

The plus that you lightly touched on is that these are available to those who perhaps couldn't afford them at the time.

I think that with a few exceptions (such notable things as Gunderson stacks and tri or bi level open auto carriers--87ft), there are very few common and major items not available or if omitted, could be modified with a minimum of work or repaint.

I do agree, however, reg. putting in Acela & saying "Sold Out" (as reported above but haven't personally verified)

The sky has not fallen.

[Anonymous]

Would somebody tell me what is so horrible about Lionel repeating some things in the current catalog from previous ones? The postwar catalogs did it all the time. Maybe some of us passed on the repeats the first time, and this is a reminder that they are still available in case we changed our minds. Also, what about new people in the hobby who didn't see the previous catalogs?

Although there are not many items I want from the new catalog, repeating some things is no big deal to me.

Jim

[cheapclassics]

I just wonder if they are going to let Thomas the Tank Engine wither on the vine again as they have done twice before. They got off to a good start by putting couplers on Annie and Clarabel and three-position directional unit on Thomas, but there (so far) has not been any followup pieces announced. It would be an excellent way to get kids involved, but without at least more rolling stock, the set is a curiosity more than anything that can be built upon.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: They wouldn't be making this stuff if we weren't buying it :).

After going through several LHS' here in the Twin Cities and surrounding suburbs, I would have to kind of disagree with that statement

In every one there is alot of excess stock in all price ranges. Looking at it from the perspective of not having alot of money-while I can find alot of rolling stock that is reasonable--you can't run it without loco's, track, and power. That is where the big bite seems to come in alot of the time.

[nblum]

My take is more positive. I think they're, more than any other manufacturer/importer trying to address the full range of interests in three rail, from whimsical operating boxcars to Disney and Elvis collectors, to Neil Young fans, to those who like $1,000 + scale locomotives, $25 and less starter O27 rolling stock, conventional and command engines, scale and not so scale (Williams doesn't have a $99 MSRP steam loco, do they?), operating accessories, conventional track, ballasted track, and so on. It's a diverse hobby and the catalog is diverse. So any one individual may only find a few items of interest. I'm only interested in the New Haven PAs, maybe the NYC FA2s, a few rolling stock and probably a few PWC items. I'd like to see some prewar or Standard gauge repros, but that appears out of the question.

I think they've addressed some of the complaints one hears such as not enough conventional stuff, 4 chuffs per revolution, more O27 type stuff, some O27 locos at decent pricing, more PWC stuff, and continued interesting, if pricey structures and accessories. They wouldn't be making this stuff if we weren't buying it :).

[FJ and G]

I think it might be nice to slow down the pace of new offerings (ouch, that hurts!).

W/lawsuits from UP/MTH and slow economy, not good to spread yourself too thin. Same advice for the other companies.

Good for hobbyists too, as they may take up custom painting or kitbashing.

Not advice, just a thought, looking at it from the flip side.

If anything should increase, I'd say it should be low-cost starter sets. Not hard to do; just package together existing pieces in different ways. No brainer there.

Dave V

[spodwo]

I like the "Q" 0-8-0 but the price? Ouch for a switch engine. I will have to see what one looks like in the real world.

[ChiefEagles]

I looked through it twice [did not study it] but did not see the line of Lionmaster diesels but only steamers. My "train lady" said there were to many "repeats" and that made for double ordering from customers.

[Anonymous]

I had hoped for more AEC/Space/Military items, but sadly there are none to be found[:(]

I found the stripped done scale diesels an interesting idea, will they sell[?]

-Tinplate Jeff