Thats right, 14 on the KW and 18 on the ZW, got it!! I got so many accessories and such. But, it is roughly 2 accessories per A post, 2 accessories per B post and so forth. Then, I am using a C & D post of one Z for powering the budd car line and main line. Then another D post on another Z for the gang car line. The rest of the posts for accessories, 71 lamp posts, lights for houses, and 022 switches on just the KW and ZW. Basically, I have 2 transformers for just my 022 switches. And (2) D posts and one C post for my trains. That would leave 17 posts open for accessories, thats (5) A posts and (5) B posts, (4) C posts and (3) D posts open for accessories. I believe I have about 25 accessories that require power from a transformer, all postwar variety. I can list them all, if you would like. I was thinking of getting another Z for expansion purposes, if I was to go to York Show and get more accessories, you never know. I am running out of room though, only 15 x 8 to work with, getting tough, with RR Track and all, trying to get it all to fit is hard. I will wire up the common U terminals from the KW and ZW to the outside rails, where the switches are on the main line. Thanks.
No, the common terminal for a KW, ZW, or Z is U.
If you are running locomotives on several layouts from the same Z transformer, then the U terminals of that transformer should be connected to the outside rails of all the layouts. Any transformers powering turnouts should have their U terminals connected to the outside rails of the layouts that the turnouts are on or to the U terminal of the transformer powering the train. In other words, in your situation, all U terminals of all transformers should be connected together and to all the outside rails, one way or another.
Do you remember that I advised you to put 14 turnouts on the KW and 18 on the ZW, better to match the power ratings of each?
You've got so many transformers involved that you need to be careful in the layout of your return wires. If you can tell me roughly how the layouts and the transformers are arranged in the room, which transformer is powering what, and identify whatever accessories have a common with the track, that is, are operated by control rails, then maybe I can recommend wire sizes and routing for the commons.
Bob Nelson
So, If I am running my (32) 022 switches from a KW and a ZW, 16 on each. Then, running my locomotives on a seperate transformer, a Z transformer. I would have to have the KW and ZW have a common ground with the Z, from which the switches are all on that main line, which is powered by the Z, correct? Just put a lockon on the main line and a wire from terminal #2 or outside rail to the KW and ZW posts? Does not matter which post, A,B,C, or D. As long as it is not the same post that the switches are wired to, correct? Thanks.
There is no reason for completely independent tracks to share a common. There is no reason for accessories that are independent of the track to share a common with the track. Turnouts (like the 022) generally do share a common with the track, regardless of whether they are powered from the track or separately. An 022 powered from the fixed-voltage plug does not draw any current from the track voltage supply.
When tracks connect they should be arranged so that trains crossing from one track to another remain powered by a single transformer output during the crossing. If you should forget to assign both tracks to the same transformer output, harmful fault currents can flow, but there is less mayhem if the two outputs are in phase. Accessories that use the outside rails of the track as their common, on the other hand, are better wired out of phase with the track voltage.
What is the advantage of running your transformer in phase?? I only use 2 transformers for actually running the train locomotives, and 5 more for just accessories. Why would they want to share a common ground?? I have 3 seperate main lines and they do not interact with each other or have crossovers into each other, one is a main line, other is a gang car line and the last is an elevated budd car line. Oh, yeah one last question: If my (32) 022 switches are run by fixed voltage, they do not use any track voltage at all, correct?? Because my main line runs the outside of my 15 x 8 layout along the perimeter of the layout, how often should I put a lockon? Every 6 to 8 feet? I do have a lot of switches and freight yards and sidings and all that good stuff. Thanks.
One way is to connect the commons between the transformers, then measure the individual output voltages (to common) and the voltage between the two outputs. If the voltage between the two outputs is the sum of the individual voltages, the transformers are out of phase. If it is the difference, then they are in phase.
Another way is to put a voltmeter or lamp between the two outputs and try reversing the plug of one transformer. The transformers are out of phase when the voltage is highest or the lamp is brightest. (Use a lamp that can stand the sum of the two outputs' voltages, so that you don't burn it out!)
Thanks for the clear description, Bob, but how do we know if our transformers are in or out of phase?
runtime
If you think of the position of a steam-locomotive crosshead as being the instantaneous voltage, then the instantaneous angle of the crank on the drive wheel is the phase. If the cranks on both sides of the locomotive are at the same angle (like a Lionel "General"), then the two crossheads (voltages) are said to be "in phase". If the angles are 90 degrees apart ("quartered), then the crossheads (voltages) are said to be "90 degrees out of phase". If they were 180 degrees apart (like no locomotive I know), then the crossheads (voltages) would be "180 degrees out of phase", or just "out of phase".
All the outputs of a transformer like a Z or ZW are in phase with each other. Even though their voltages may not be the same, they are all positive at the same time and all negative at the same time, 8 1/3 milliseconds later. The outputs of two different transformers may be in or out of phase with each other, according to how they are plugged in. Simply pulling one plug, turning it over, and plugging it back in will reverse the situation. When two voltages that are out of phase drive two loads that share a common return, the return currents from those two loads are also out of phase. When one current is flowing toward the transformer, the other is flowing away. Since the total return current is the sum of these two, and one is the negative of the other, the total is the difference between them. So the return path never needs to carry more current than would result from the bigger load alone, and often less than that.
This principle is used in the electrical power service to your house. There are three large wires, all about the same size. The bare one is the common. The red and black ones are each at 120 volts relative to the common, but out of phase with each other. So the common never has to carry more current than the greater current in either of the other wires. This kind of common is called a "neutral", because the return current from one of the 120-volt wires neutralizes the return current from the other. Sometimes the neutral is even made a little smaller than the other two, on the assumption that there will always be some of this neutralization going on.
I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand what you mean by "out of phase" I like the idea of a common return. If you use a common return, then are not the feeds then in phase? Sorry, new to this level of operations.
Steve
I don't remember a topic like that. Maybe it was somebody else. Actually I think it would be very hard to calculate just how much current a locomotive would draw. It depends on the speed, the voltage, and the load in a complicated way.
It would be possible to figure how much current the lamps are drawing, but not simple. You have to get each lamp type's specification, for example, the 1445 draws 150 milliamperes at 14.4 volts. Multiply the specified current and voltage together to get the power, 2.16 watts in this case. Then you have to adjust for the voltage that you're actually running it at, let's say 20 volts. Take the ratio 20/14.4 and raise it to the 1.55 power, getting 1.664. Multiply the power by that, to get 3.594 watts. Add up all the lamp powers, then divide by an assumed transformer efficiency, let's say .75. Then divide that by the power-line voltage, 120 volts. The result is the current drawn by the transformer.
After all this is done, the current drawn by a ZW, for example, running flat out at 20 volts and 15 amperes, just before the transformer's circuit breaker trips, is 3 1/3 amperes. You could run 4 of these on a 15-ampere branch circuit without tripping it. With more realistic output voltages and currents, you could plug in many more without any trouble.
Lionelsoni, Could you tell me how many amperes an 022 switch uses when in use, and a single/dual motored loco, and accessories?? I am just curious as I wanted to add up all the amperes I would be using and see if that would trip the fuse box. For example, I would be running a dual motored 2343 AA units, a 50 gang car, and a 404 and 400 budd cars all at the same time, plus having all my switch lit up, and having (16) 71 lamp post lit up, as well as about 10 plasticville buildings lit up as well, and maybe one or two accessories running. How many amperes would all that draw at the same time?? I remember you had a thread about the amperes of each motor/motors and all that. Cannot find it. thanks.
Almost. External breakers are relevant to calculating the size of the common. The rule is that the common should be able to handle the worst-case common current. In the case of the ZW, the external breakers' ratings add up to 21 amperes; so the internal breaker will be the one to limit the total ZW current to 15 amperes. But, in the case of the R (and assuming that there are no other loads on it that you didn't mention), the external breakers' ratings add up to 3 amperes; so the external breaker will limit the total R current to 3 amperes. Thus the common has to handle only 18 amperes, not 20. That doesn't make any difference here, since you would have to use 12 AWG anyway.
Now, if you take my suggestion to run the turnouts out of phase, their return current can only reduce the total below the 15 amperes that the ZW can supply. So 14 AWG would be big enough.
Yes, 24 AWG would be safe for the 3-ampere turnout circuit.
lionelsoni The wire size should be large enough to carry the rated current of the circuit breaker, not just the expected load. The circuit breaker will not protect your wiring if it can be damaged by a current less than that which will trip the breaker. This means at least 14 AWG for 15 amperes (Z, ZW), 16 AWG for 10 amperes (KW), 18 AWG for 7 or 8 amperes (V, VW), 20 AWG for 5 amperes (1033).
The wire size should be large enough to carry the rated current of the circuit breaker, not just the expected load. The circuit breaker will not protect your wiring if it can be damaged by a current less than that which will trip the breaker. This means at least 14 AWG for 15 amperes (Z, ZW), 16 AWG for 10 amperes (KW), 18 AWG for 7 or 8 amperes (V, VW), 20 AWG for 5 amperes (1033).
Let's suppose my layout is composed of 3 loops, each powered by a separate 1033. The 3 loops share a common common ((har!). Each loop is a block; I can run one train on each block, or connect the blocks together and run one train between all three loops using a single transformer. If I understand this correctly, the bus for the common should be at least 14AWG (because there's a potential for 5A from each of 3 circuits), while the hots can be 20AWG (because each will only carry 5A).
Is that right?
In a similar vein, consider a layout which can run 3 trains simultaneously from a single ZW and has numerous switches connected to a fixed voltage terminal on a 100W R (24V). Each terminal on the ZW has an external 7A breaker between the transformer and the track; there's an external 3A breaker on the R's fixed voltage terminal. The common should then be sized to handle a maximum draw of 20A (15A ZW; 5A R; 12AWG; external breakers are irrelevant to calculating the size of the common bus), the track connections can use 18AWG (because the breakers limit them to 7A each) , and the fixed voltage can use 20AWG (22AWG?) (because the breaker limits it to 3A), correct?
Thanks.
Yes, but whether it is enough to make a difference depends on the size and length of the wire and the number of turnouts. Fourteen AWG should be heavy enough for practically any situation.
Wait for Bobs answer. I would say no.
Jason
B&O = Best & Only
Question about the switches. Wiring to one then to the next closest switch and so on. Does that mean the one closest to the transformer will see the most power, while the one switch at the end of the line will see the least amount of power?? Just curious about that. Thanks and I will keep what you wrote in my mind.
lionelsoni- Great tip on chaining the voltage plugs together. I'm doing something similar. I'm using two bus wires for all my switches. One for the voltage plugs and one for the light. I rewired all 42 switches so the bulbs can be run at 6 volts. No more melted lanterns. Along with the common wire of the switch controller being fed from the common on the control panel I had read in another of your replies. I will be saving a lot of wire.
One suggestion I have is to chain the accessory voltage for the turnouts from one turnout to the next, rather than running a "home run" for each one. Although there is not much risk it wiring a turnout with AWG 20, you could afford to use 14 AWG that way and be completely safe. Run one wire from the transformer to the closest turnout, then do the wire-nut trick to connect through the table to the constant-voltage plug with a smaller wire and to connect to another piece of 14 AWG to go on to the next closest turnout. You could do the same with the other lights and accessories by grouping them into larger circuits that way if you want and save a lot of wire and clutter.
Another idea is to power the turnouts out of phase with the track. That way the return currents through the outside rails to the transformer cancel rather than reinforce each other. This reduces any voltage drop in the outside rails. You can also use the nearest outside rails as the return path for accessories and power them out of phase too. This not only reduces the voltage drop but also saves running a separate wire for the return side of the accessory circuits.
Don't forget to connect the commons of all your transformers together, either directly or by connecting them all to the same point. With all the transformers that you have, I would connect them individually and directly to the track. Otherwise, you would need a very large single wire to connect them to the track as a group because that wire would have to carry the total return current.
If you need advice about connecting transformers out of phase, just holler.
I went to Home Depot and got some 14 AWG stranded wire--500 feet of it, some more terminal strips, and some spade and loop terminal connectors. I will use the spade connectors at the terminal strips and the loop connectors at the transformers. Let me know if the rest sounds right--I will first wire up all 32 switches of the 022 variety, using the fixed voltage plugs, using 20 AWG to the terminal strips--thats 32 wires going to a terminal strip--then 1 or 2 wires from the terminal strip going to the transformers to power those 32 switches. I will use spade connectors to attach the 14 AWG at the terminal strips and use loop connectors to attach the 14 AWG wire to the transformers. Second, the track power will be all wired with 14 AWG stranded wire, from the lockon straight to the posts on the transformers to power the track. Will use various feeds, depending on if the locomotives lose power as they get further from the transformers. All the wiring will be under the platform of course. I will crimp the ends of the track power wires that go onto the transformers using loop connectors. I will have 3 main lines. Third, for the accessories, I will use 20 AWG wire from the all accessories to the terminal strips. Then use 14 AWG from the terminal strips, connected by spade connectors going to the transformers and use loop connectors at the transformer posts. I will be using about 7 terminal strips that have 8 sections to them. 4 for accessories, one for switches and 2 for track power. And maybe a few more for things like the 71 lamp posts. Am I forgetting anything?? Sounds good to you guys?? How do you guys make all the wiring under the table neat?? Last year, I use wire hangers. I only put up the layout from October to January, so I need something that is not permanant, something that can be screwed in or something. And if I have a problem, I like to be able to trace and follow the wiring. I do not want to use staples or anything like that. Let me know what you think. Thanks.
No. The spacing of (and even the need for) extra feeders varies greatly with the track configuration and, especially, the quality and number of joints in the track. The track itself can be (very roughly) be compared to 16 AWG copper wire, which has a resistance of 4 milliohms per foot. The total resistance should be a small fraction of an ohm--100 milliohms would be good. A complete loop, compared to a simple track, has 1/4 the resistance to the farthest point, since that point is fed from both directions and is distant by half the track length from the transformer. So a complete 100-foot loop with very good joints (soldered) should have no need for extra feeders.
I suggest laying the track, then adding feeders to any areas where the train is slowing down. Use at least 14 AWG for any feeders, so that the feeder resistance is less than that of the track itself.
One trick to reduce the resistance easily is to tie the outside rails of nearby tracks together with short wires. If the tracks are powered from the same source, tie the center rails too.
Here's something I've been curious about: is there a convention or rule of thumb for spacing between power connections on tubular track?
I use:
14 gauge stranded for track power (w/common ground for each transformer) soldered directly to Gargraves/Ross track
18 gauge solid dual conductor "bell wire" for accessories (back in the 1950's we used this for all our wiring). soldered to lugs at each end.
salvaged Christmas mini light wire for Z Stuff switch machines (only)
There is no harm in using wire that is heavier than you need to carry the current that the circuit breaker is rated for. The circuit breaker will not know the difference. It won't help nor hurt the transformer either. The only real reasons for going to heavier wire than necessary for safety is to reduce voltage drop between the transformer and the track, or because you just have it on hand.
To terminate heavier wire at the transformer, just get some crimp-on spade lugs or ring lugs, whichever you prefer, and a crimping tool. The blue ones are the right size for 14 AWG wire; but be sure that the slot or hole in the lug is the right size for the screws of the terminals.
To terminate heavier wire at the track, use the heaviest wire that you actually can attach to the track, run it immediately through the table, then connect it to the heavier wire under the table using a wire nut. A couple of inches of moderately smaller wire like this is safe. And it makes it much easier to take up the track if you need to, simply by undoing the wire nut and pulling the short "tap" wire up through the hole in the table.
Lionelsoni, would it be okay to use 14 AWG stranded for my (5) Z's and ZW?? How about the same wire for my KW, to hook up my 022 switches to my KW, using the fixed voltage plugs?? Does this mean since I am using heavy wire that my circuit breaker will trip easier?? And using thicker wire, does that put less strain on the transformer? My layout is 15' x 8' and I have some long runs of wire, sounds like it would be a better idea to use that 14 AWG wire. I just need some thick wire that is easy to work with, as far as being able to get the thick wire into the lockons and on the posts of the transformers. I will go to Lowes tomorrow and check it out. Thanks.
I found some wire on Lowes website. It is 14 AWG stranded wire, rated at 15 amps and 600 volts. I will be using this for my Z and ZW transformers and will use other smaller wires for my KW. Its 500 feet for $47.25, which is not too bad. I wonder if the 14 AWG stranded is easy to bend and attach to the posts of my transformers?? You guys ever have any issues attaching thick wires to the posts of your transformers? I do not like to use spade terminals or anything like that. I like direct connections, just cannot trust my crimping abilities and wires comming loose and who knows what damage could occur. Thanks.
If it helps, I recently bought a reel of 14 gage stranded wire at Lowes, for what seemed at the time to be a reasonable price.
As those of us who have them know (or learn), it takes a lot of wire to set up track blocks and switch controls on larger layouts. Mine is about 13 X 15 'around the floor" (same as around the wall, but harder to work on); so my advice is don't be afraid to buy a large spool of wire. You will probably need it eventually.
You might want to use heavier wire to reduce voltage drop; but it is not safe to use lighter wire.
There is no electrical reason to prefer stranded or solid wire. It is purely a matter of convenience in working with the wire.
I have been using 20 AWG for my accessories for a few years now. No problems thus far. I mean I only run one accessory at a time. As far as the track power wire. I guess I will use some 16 AWG stranded lamp wire. What is the best store to buy this 16 AWG stranded lamp wire?? Thanks.
Most accessories come with solid wire that is 18 AGW or 20 AGW so you could give that a try to see it works.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month