Not Impressed By OGR Run 202

[highrailjon]

Scott, One of the reasons I left OGR is because I was so tired of the butt kissing monkeys. And in Rich's little kingdom you are soooo the duke of it. There is no stopping you people is there? Whats in it for you all? I really want to know, honest. Is it driven by some cyber friendship?, a wannabee status? Lack of testosterone?, need for a father figure? I really believe that ogr's whining little circle of snobbish -puritanical -know -it -alls truley brings out the VERY worst of this hobby.

[Anonymous]

Guys,

Thanks for all of your opinions and constructive criticism.

One thing about the ads. Both CTT and OGR have very similar advertising-to-editorial rations, and, as far as CTT goes, the ratio has remained the same since I started here more than 7 years ago. Those of you counting pages of ads need to keep in mind things like the cover, table of contents, etc., etc., all count as "editorial" and not paid ads.

I have one suggestion for you, and please don't take this as a way to weasle out of things.

CTT, OGR, Lionel, MTH, and all of the other companies involved in our hobby are businesses that must generate products and services that create revenue, just like other businesses in all walks of life. Revenue and expenses must be in balance. There are reasons why all businesses do certain things in certain ways. Those reasons aren't big secrets. But some of them would seem unusual, shortsighted, or downright wrong to people who are simply outside of those industries or those companies. Think of where you work and how outsiders might perceive the actions your company takes. This same train of thought applies to individuals, too.

So please keep that in mind in your postings and responses on this forum. Keep that in mind, too, if you feel the need to post something about another forum. Our forum was created to build things up for the toy train community, not to knock things down.

If you have specific questions about CTT you can always email me directly. Thanks for listening.

Neil Besougloff
editor, CTT

[Anonymous]

While there was some criticism about the amount of advertising in that issue. I believe most of the criticism was indeed constructive and was related to the magazine's layout and content.

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[garyseven]

I guess I am not offended by advertising in my four subscriptions: OGR, CTT, OST, or NR. Why? I don't live in a section of the country that has:
(1) Any really good O-Gauge train shops within 150 miles. (Whistle-Stop is getting alot better - but 30-45 minutes away.)
(2) Many people that run O-Gauge. I am the only one I know in my city of close to 80,000.
(3) My local (Beaverton) hobby shop has great people, but mention O gauge and they stop and say: "Oh, the one that runs on 3 rails, I think we have some over there..."
They have maybe 25 (mostly Lionel) freight cars and 10 engines." Now ask them about R/C, slot cars, or model rockets and they will talk your ears off...
So by advertisments in OGR, CTT, OST, or NR. I can see what is out there, who sells it, and get a ball park price that I can get nowhere else. The forums (OGR, CTT and Atlas) are not a big help because they are not "buy, sell or trade" friendly.
So I personally - (repeat personally) enjoy advertisments and cannot get riled up.

[FJ and G]

It doesn't take much to get some people riled up against other people who are riled up against something that riles them up.

dav

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RIch Melvin

No I wouldn't.

Constructive criticism never hurt anyone.

I agree. All of the criticism I've read so far has been constructive.

[Anonymous]

Do some of you people find yourselves harbouring alot of resentment, anger, and spite toward OGR and their forum? Is it worth it? NOW, GET OVER IT!

Creepy Jim

[Anonymous]

This thread has been too effin' funny.

"Frankie CSX" trolls an expertly prepared bait to get things rolling. Everyone with a Melvin / OGR agenda weighs in. The feeding frenzy reaches its crescendo after Mr. Melivn Hisownself puts in a guest appearance.

Of course, it was Melvin. Everything on the internet has basis in fact and everyone is who they say they are, right?

Haven't seen Frankie-Boy around lately either. What fun!


George W. Bush

[Anonymous]

Nice piece Ches. I've said the same thing. Maybe I rant too much. I'm new to this hobby and I only have a small train table but I still have fun after working all day coming home kicking back and running or working on my trains. I also have other hobbies the let me get outdoors when I can so mostly I run my trains at least in the summer. I would like to see more articles about regular layouts and operations. I don't have any of that newer electronic or computer controlled stuff so those articles don't help me any. There has to be a lot of train guys who just have regular layouts and trains. We need help once in awhile too. That Rich Melvin guy is way too hostile for me. I couldn't deal with him if I had to be around him. We got guys like him on the job where I work and it's a pain. Any way I think CTT is the better train magazine. Their ads are OK too. Just don't have too many. Oh yeah I remember that CTT has done some celebrity stuff about trains over the years. They have done articles on Spike Lee (Clockers), Mandy Patinkin (Chicago Hope), and Ray Charles' home layout in the '50's. I guess they know more "in crowd"
people than Rich Melvin. You jealous Rich? Oh yeah did you also know that Mousollini had Lionel trains? So did Eisenhower, Truman and Nixon. How about that? Whoa. I think even Ronald Reagan had them too.

[FJ and G]

Run 202 wasn't the best; of course every magazine has these moments. The featured layout didn't really look like a good hi-rail or a toy train layout. I think there would have been better layouts (toy or hi-rail) to feature. Additionally, I enjoy reading tips on how the layout was built and innovative ideas. Both CTT and OGR often fall flat in this regard, but it's a hit-or-miss proposition. When a hit, I'll still buy both (I put this post on OGR as well in their "ideas" forum). I just don't want to waste my money on stuff I can't use.

DAV

[Anonymous]

I would think that instead of being arrogant, hostile, etc. R.Melvin
would take some of this criticism as constructive (as most of it is)
and try to rectify some of these problems (real) and change every-
ones' impression of him and his magazine (perceived). This would
result in more harmony, less upset and increased subscriptions.

CTT seems to listen to its subscribers a little more and does in
fact react to changes in their subscribers' desires. As for ads vs.
article content, not only does CTT contain more articles. but the articles
are more dense/complete. Not as much "white space" (bigger
margins/less content), more information regarding equipment and
construction. Their photos could be a tad better, maybe the editor
can notify the copy department to enhance the pictures a little to
bring out better contrast, etc.

OGR could/should work more to publish longer more complete
articles and chuck the margin-cheaters. There is no benefit there
(take it from someone who does have a sight problem). The photos
are pretty good. Lighting is better than CTT. The articles about the
replacement of light bulbs in Lionel switches is a step in the right
direction. Useful to scalers and tinplaters alike. Information was
pretty complete and easy to understand. Print more like this. As for
attitude, Melvin, you have to learn to not take things so personally. Not
all people are wordsmiths, so they express themselves as best as
they know how. Maybe the reason they are so vehement is because
they really love this hobby and want to see it continue in the spirit it
was founded on. Fun, relaxation and fellowship. Things today are way
too competitive for no reason at all. Who really cares how affluent one
is or is not? The person who has a $150 starter set can be every bit as
committed to this hobby as a person who has over $1 Million in trains.
You and some of your group over there may be (or at least project the
image as being) independently wealthy, but most of us are independently
poor. That doesn't mean that we are any less "true hobbyists" as others.
Just becasue some of us operate tinplate, clockwork or non-scale lay-
outs doesn't mean that we are any less "cultured" or "with it". The late
great Frank Sinatra had a massive tinplate collection that he operated
for decades. ( I saw and have pictures of his ORIGINAL layout). Joe
DiMaggio and Roy Campenella were also great tinplaters. Does that
mean they were not "with it"? Adolph Hitler and Hermann Goering had
massive scale Marklin layouts. Did that make them part of the "in crowd"
and "true hobbyists"? Just posting some trivia from history to maybe
help put things in perspective. Rich, cool off, listen to people, think a
moment or two before you reply and be a little more open minded about
things. Don't be so opinionated and controlling. Let people have a say.
Maybe you'll get a useful tip no and then.

CTT and crew. A couple more articles per issue would be greatly ap-
preciated by all. This would also help with the issues of variety and ad-to-
article content. Yes, both magazines need advertisers, but adding a few
pages when needed for an additional article wouldn't "break the bank".
You don't have to keep the extra pages every issue, just as needed. I just
know that you have many contributors with great topics of interest.
As for photos, how about working a little more on lighting to bring out the
details better. If lighting is a problem, there is always PhotoShop or some
other program which can be of help. Others have mentioned this also. You
could/should probably print more "letters to the editor" if possible. Not every
one has access to the internet to see what opinion is. Also, many of the
letters have some good info from time to time.

Thanks, Just my 2c

(Edited for typos and spelling)

[Anonymous]

Is Rich Melvin, Rich Melvin[?]

[Anonymous]

Garyseven -
I agree with you. Something seems a bit, uh, odd about the responses from Rlch Melvin.

[Anonymous]

Texas Type, your observation of the % of ads in OGR is accurate. It looks like OGR's ad saleman earned his commission and bonus for this issue.

[Anonymous]

Geez louise melvin, chill out. Its american, everybody has an opinion, so let it be. You don't have to be so defensively harsh because somebody has a different perception of things. If you are going to be in the public arena (and you are) you are going to get knocked, both rightly and wrongly at times. It goes with the territory.

I think run 202 was OK. I read both magazines and both have strong points and weak points. Under the management of melvin and his merry band-of-men ogr has greatly improved in both readability and content. Much more professional than the previous regime, but clearly not in the same league as the Kalmbach publications.

In time I'm sure ogr will only get better.

I do have a hard time understanding how either magazine can claim a "50%" ratio of adds to content. OGR is by my measurement about 75% adds; CTT is about 60% adds. But then again this is hardly a scientific measurement.

I'm glad both mags are around. And I somewhat enjoy the adds. Though I wish both would increase their content.

[Anonymous]

This bickering is getting really old. It's kind of embarrasing too. Hopefully the moderators will read this in the morning and lock this thread. ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

[ChiefEagles]

Bill Conner, Bill Sherwood was a little strong [maybe justly so?]. I have met some very nice people on OGR. Some are very helpful. You do notice I said, "some". The ones that are rude are in the minority. So, I keep on going over and posting and getting great replies. I've really met some very helpful and nice guys on the DCS section. The big thing about when I first read this topic was, why is this over here on CTT? I really do not like to hear a lot of "bitching" about any FREE forum that I can participate in. If you do feel you have to "female dog", do it to the their face. OGR has a suggestion section. God bless.

[Anonymous]

This is some great turd hurling. If Bill Connor is going to call people names who post on the OGR Forum, then I'd like to see him get the balls to specifically name the people he is insulting.

Bill Sherwood

[Anonymous]

I don't subscribe to OGR. I've bought a few issues at my hobby shop but I wasn't turned on by anything in there. It looks like something I did back in school in computer lab with desk top publishing. CTT is a pretty cool magazine. Lots of stuff that is useful for people
who actually buy and operate their trains. I like the product reviews especially the long term reviews. They are helpful when I go look at trains at the hobby shop. I know from the long term reviews what will hold up over the long run. OGR seems to want to try to be a high brow magazine. They seem to talk more about the people than the trains. I notice that there are a lot more ads in OGR than other train magazines. That takes away from the magazine. It makes it more like a sales flyer or a info-mercial. Between the people going "look at me and my expensive layout" and the bunches of ads there is not much in there about the trains. CTT focuses more on the trains themselves and the ads in CTT tie into the trains instead of the other way around. CTT gives good credit to the people who have the layouts featured but they don't make the people the stars they m ake the trains the stars. That's the way I like my train magazines.

[BigJim]

nor do they have the resources like Kalmbach has

What a hoot that is!
You would think that a company with the supposed resources of Kalmbach would hire writers that actually knew something about trains or at least make them learn. Read some of the reviews on steam engines and the reviewers barely know they are looking at a steam engine and not a diesel. The OGR guys aren't much better, but again there is absolutely no excuse for the Kalmbach Clan!

But back to the topic. At times both OGR and CTT leave a lot to be desired and I mean A LOT. I disagree about the comment on photo quality in OGR. Their photo quality is every bit as good as anyones. You want to see poor photo quality go to the CTT Reviews online. Everything is filmed from the dark side.

So what we have here is at best a stand off. Both could be better, it just takes committment to quality.

[jonadel]

Wow, I think a time out might be in order for a few folks or some de caff coffee. I just wonder when the editors of both of these fine publications will say "enough" and pull the plug on these forums.

This topic reminds of a former Supt. in our school district who would drop in on our facutly meetings. He would often remind us that since all parents had attended school that they were experts in education, sound familiar? He always used that same speech just before parent/teacher conferences every year.

I can't imagine the sleepless nights that these editors must have before putting out another issue for the masses. Let's cut them some slack and be happy with what we have. If you can't find one or two things per issue that you can use you might want to reconsider your expectations. I'm not saying to lower your expectations, I'm saying look for the positives.

OK, I'm off the soap box and I'm heading to the train room!

Jon[;)]

[Anonymous]

Woah, guys, please...be courteous with each other here. This is for discussion of our hobby in a civil manner only. Kalmbach has rules about conduct on THEIR forums. No personal slams.

I noticed FOUR o gauge magazines at Tower the other day (they have a big newstand). O scale railways (British outline), something like "O Gauge Review" I think and CTT and OGR. All had interesting articles that would probably fit well within one journal, as there are scale-lovers and 027 runners eager to read each other's stuff.
I dont even have O gauge and I like to read up on it.

Regards,

Tom M.

[garyseven]

QUOTE: My goodness, both editors in the same topic. And to think, this isn't even the first time

On November 13, Felix Unger was asked to remove himself from his place of residence; that request came from his wife. Deep down, he knew she was right, but he also knew that some day he would return to her. With nowhere else to go, he appeared at the home of his friend, Oscar Madison. Several years earlier, Madison's wife had thrown HIM out, requesting that HE never return. Can two divorced men share an apartment without driving each other crazy?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oops - wrong odd couple...[;)]

[ChiefEagles]

Thanks Heartman.

[Heartman]

Amen agent 027 ! Too much negative.
I get both OGRR and CTT, read both (& forums), and enjoy both.
Thank you CTT and OGRR.

Dennis

[Anonymous]

Rich:

Let's face facts, the milque-toast constructive criticisms expressed in the threads you linked to in the above posts (on the OGR Forum) were no where as harsh as the very accurate and concise criticisms in the "Not impressed by OGR Run 202" which appeared on this Forum. Likewise a lot of constructive criticism in this thread was also aimed at CTT on their own forum.

Unfortunately, your pattern of arbitrarily deleting threads you don't agree with is well known, but now your rantings in your above posts only serve to confirm what we already know.

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[highrailjon]

Well put Bill Conner!!!! It seems so hard to tell other people to take their foot out of their mouths when THEIR heads are so far up their butts. Can I apologize now? Oh, please me first, me first!! I dont think so.
As for the latest issue of OGR I cant really comment on it other then its getting some great use in the litter box. I cancelled but obviuosly no one listened. I'm just not a "know it all pointy head" after all!

[Anonymous]

As far as I'm concerned, there is way too much arrogance and condescension from the moderators and several people on the OGR forum. If you don't agree with them or tow the line, you're put down, insulted, or deleted. The several people I refer to are the pointy headed know it alls with the inflated egos who dispense their "words of wisdom" like they're doing us a favor. No thanks, I much prefer the CTT forum.

I would give OGR a pass on the current magazine. They do put out a good publication from time to time so they shouldn't be judged based on one lemon.

[cbojanower]

Rich,

As I said in the original note, I hoped the thread was there, none of those 3 were the one I seem to remember reading. Perhaps my memory failed me, and I just thought it was there. if it did then I owe you an apology in this instance.

The article entitled "Summer Train Magazines Lacking" seems to be along the same lines as this thread. I would encourage those here to post their OGR specific comments there. http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=63160042&f=57660482&m=7241016101

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RIch Melvin

No I wouldn't.

Constructive criticism never hurt anyone.

Mr. Melvin, I don't agree. I've seen too many threads and posts deleted on the OGR forum that contained constructive criticism of your advertisers.