ive done a conversion of the can motor as well as made it dcc and it works well
im wanting to make my own convetion assembly .
that being said does anyone know the pitch of the worm on the american flyer motor
That was an interesting question posted by Gray Cat. "What is the longevity of can motors? How will they perform after sitting stored away for a few years"?
I myself, run all my trains on my layout every week. I switch between trains from my layout to my wall display every couple months. I myself like the 1/2 speed can motors because they go a lot slower while not having hick-ups. This works well for my age, when my eye site and reflexes are not as good as some of the younger model train operators. I am more of a operator than a collector (80%-20%)
AZ-Flyer
“Tell me and I’ll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I’ll understand.”
AZ-Flyer@American Flyer Cabinet-top Layout (5'x16'): http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/
Some things that concern me a little about the "can" motors. Where are they made? What is the longevity? How will they perform after sitting stored away for a few years? The original open frame Gilbert motor after sitting many years can be serviced with a simple cleaning and lubrication.. worst case is usually a set of springs and brushes all readily available.
I have an early Lionel/Flyer GP that has had it's can motor fail already and the worst part about it is that it was an early Lionel venture with a specific can that as it turns out is hard to find.(and yes I bought two of them when I found the right one)
Now I do think that the prospects of a half speed motor producing more smoke and having more pulling power is attractive and in the case of the above mentioned Baldwin most likely this is a vast improvement over the stock motor. I'm also thinking about the challenges of keeping my fleet running well once I have my layout complete. This weighs in favor of the can and Dallee combo.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
azflyer With close to 2,000 views on this post, how many of you have done a can-motor conversion (1/2 speed or full speed) on American Flyer trains (Steam or Diesel). If so, on what? Pro or Cons? Would you do another American Flyer can-motor conversion? AZ-Flyer
With close to 2,000 views on this post, how many of you have done a can-motor conversion (1/2 speed or full speed) on American Flyer trains (Steam or Diesel). If so, on what? Pro or Cons? Would you do another American Flyer can-motor conversion?
AZ,
I did a full speed can motor conversion on my American Flyer Baldwin diesel (#355).
I had not run it for over 40 years and when I took it out of storage two years ago, the innards were a total disaster. When I went off to college, my younger brother "inherited" my two American Flyer train sets, and he was pretty rough on them.
The Baldwin diesel has the reversing unit was next to the motor, and there were broken and missing parts on both units. Not having any experience with rehabbing classic toy trains, I opted to buy a full speed can motor and Dallee Electronic Reversing Unit. The installation was pretty easy, and the performance is great. My only reservation is that the locomotive runs slower than I would like, but Doug at Portlines tells me that is typical of that particular can motor.
I also own an American Flyer steam engine (#312) which was in better shape than the diesel when I pulled it out of storage. At first, I tried to repair the reversing unit, but performance was spotty, so I decided to purchase a Dallee Electronic Reversing Unit and installed it in the tender. It works flawlessly.
The motor performance on the steamer is OK after replacing the wiring harness and the brushes, so I left the motor alone. I had considered a half speed can motor, because the vintage open frame motor is very sluggish until the motor warms up. But, I hate to trash the original motor, and I fear that the speed of the half speed can will be too slow for my liking, so i have not acted to replace the motor.
Incidentally, I rehabbed the smoke unit in the steamer, and the smoke performance is awesome.
Rich
Alton Junction
You can follow this restoration project from start to finish at: 1/2 Speed DC Can-Motor Conversions and Restoration on American Flyer Model Trains.
Because I don't have any American Flyer trains. I am just looking for an explanation of the claim that the worm wheel fits two rather different worms perfectly. I understand how a 1-start worm turns the worm wheel half as fast as a 2-start worm. I don't doubt that the thing works, but skeptical that the fit is perfect; and I would like to know what the trick is.
Bob Nelson
Lionelsoni,
Why don't you just buy a 1/2 can motor and a Dallee electronic e-unit and use it on what every. They make it for ac and dc. I run mine with ac with the dc can motors. That is why I buy the Dallee electronic e-unit that is all set up for that purpose. You can bench test the can motor and do all the measuring and checking yourself.
Don't just hang on, get aboard!
lionelsoni "Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear." Even though the two kinds of worm threads make two different angles with the worm wheel? I can understand "mesh adequately" if the worm wheel is thin or worn or pliable; but "mesh perfectly" seems impossible except with a worm wheel of zero thickness.
"Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear." Even though the two kinds of worm threads make two different angles with the worm wheel? I can understand "mesh adequately" if the worm wheel is thin or worn or pliable; but "mesh perfectly" seems impossible except with a worm wheel of zero thickness.
Or, maybe mesh "flawlessly".
Gray Cat AZ that worm looks identical to a stock AF worm.. is the shaft of the worm slightly off center of the motor shaft? Could these half speed motors be reduction geared?
AZ that worm looks identical to a stock AF worm.. is the shaft of the worm slightly off center of the motor shaft? Could these half speed motors be reduction geared?
I sent off an e-mail this morning to Doug Peck of Port Lines Hobby Supply where I have been buying these can motors and reverse units. He was nice enough to rely back within two hours. That is “customer service” at its best. Any way this is what I asked him and his reply follows my questions?
Doug,
I have a lot information on my web page on can motor conversions, I have now
completed and still doing. With this topic coming up on forums I belong to a lot?
How does the 1/2 speed can motor work with the worm gear on American
Flyer Trains to make it go half the speed? Is the 1/2 speed can motor gear reduced to that speed or is it the worm shaft that reduces the speed?
Everyone is waiting for an answer? I real enjoy the 1/2 speed can-motor
conversion with the Dallee reverse e-unit in my old AF trains on my train
layout.
Thanks for your help,
My personnel web site: Can-motor conversions:
http://az-flyer.blogspot.com/p/can-motor-conversion.html
CTT web forum: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/183434.aspx
Doug reply was as follows,
AZ-Flyer,
Worms on "normal" motors are double-cut, meaning there are actually two
spiral "tracks" around the shaft. If you look carefully at the bottom of
the shaft, where the cut begins nearest the motor, you can find two
locations where the groove begins.
The scale speed worms are single-cut.....you will only find ONE location
where the groove begins.....thus as the worm turns, it only spins the
worm gear (on the axle) at half the speed.
Both worms mesh perfectly with the worm gear.
Doug Peck
Port Lines Hobby Supply
6 Storeybrooke Drive
Newburyport, MA 01950-3408
www.portlines.com
doug@portlines.com
Now everyone send him an order, or at lease say, Thank You for his great customer service next time you call or see him.
That race reminds me of something I saw awhile back....................
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-oJ8sBkiIo&feature=related
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
lionelsoni Let me try this again: I would like to understand how the (1-start) half-speed worm can mate "perfectly" with the same worm wheel that was used with the original (2-start) full-speed worm. Both worms have the same diameter; so the half-speed worm's thread is at a flatter angle than the full-speed worm's threads (http://sns-trains.com/albums/main.php?g2_itemId=108). This implies that the worm wheel's teeth should be set at a different, flatter angle, to match the angle of the worm. Yet it has been said that this is not necessary. There must be an explanation for how either worm can be used with the same worm wheel. The only possibilities that I can imagine are (1) that the worm wheel is so thin that the slope of its teeth is unimportant or (2) that the worm wheel is made of something soft that conforms to the shape of the worm. I understand completely how the locomotive speed varies inversely with number of starts on the worm. My problem is with the mating of two different worms with the same worm wheel. Can anyone provide a picture or description of the worm wheel that might clarify how this happens?
Let me try this again:
I would like to understand how the (1-start) half-speed worm can mate "perfectly" with the same worm wheel that was used with the original (2-start) full-speed worm. Both worms have the same diameter; so the half-speed worm's thread is at a flatter angle than the full-speed worm's threads (http://sns-trains.com/albums/main.php?g2_itemId=108). This implies that the worm wheel's teeth should be set at a different, flatter angle, to match the angle of the worm. Yet it has been said that this is not necessary. There must be an explanation for how either worm can be used with the same worm wheel.
The only possibilities that I can imagine are (1) that the worm wheel is so thin that the slope of its teeth is unimportant or (2) that the worm wheel is made of something soft that conforms to the shape of the worm.
I understand completely how the locomotive speed varies inversely with number of starts on the worm. My problem is with the mating of two different worms with the same worm wheel.
Can anyone provide a picture or description of the worm wheel that might clarify how this happens?
I have to say Bob, you have me curious on this too. I was just down on my bench looking at a commutator assembly and the pitch of the worm matches the worm gear closely. This is also a fairly angled pitch.
The Great American Flyer Can-Motor Race
Reading 300 4-4-2 Atlantic (full-can motor)
VS
Pacific 293 4-6-2 NYHL&H (1/2-can motor)
Enjoy the race, and let the debate begain!
"Slap my hand" I said Dallee E-Unit. It should of been "Dallee Electronic E-Unit". Go to there web site at Dallee Electronics.
Let the smoke settle, and open the garage door!
Note: I have added these pictures for photo reference on my Can-Motor Conversion.
First install the Dallee # 400 4 amp electronic reverse-unit in the tender, on top of the weight with the mounting tape provided (following instructions provided with unit). 1. Make all the following connections before attaching the six-pin plug supplied for the reverse-unit in order to eliminate any potential heat damage to components.2. Connect the Blue wire to the truck rivet that has the metal wheels on the right side of the engine when facing forward.3. Connect the Black wire to the other truck rivet.4. Connect the Red and Brown wires to the the two terminals on the Can-Motor.5. Connect the Yellow and Orange wires to each other and insulate by putting (heat) shrink tube over the very ends of the two wires as in the photo below. (these would be the field wires if you leaving in the American Flyer motor).
6. The head light wire ( and smoke unit if present) should be wired directly to the two track rivet connections. Do not connect these wires to the can-motor. 7. The Dallee reverse unit is designed for easy installation of accessory items such as lighting. Many lighting variations are possible and easy to incorporate because of the design.
You can see in the picture that I ran the two Black head light wires thru the jack panel to give the conversion a cleaner look. All four wires from the engine were wired thru the rubber grommet in the tender body assembly.
Gray Cat richhotrain: Let me try this again. Why would you get more more smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor? Rich Rich did you mean to ask, "Why would you get more smoke by wiring the smoke unit and headlight directly to the tender and not to the Reverse Unit, Motor or E-Unit (which in Flyer Speak is not an E-Unit that is a word used by those other guys! ) Let me take a stab at this Rich. Perhaps what is happening by direct wiring is that there is less amperage drop across any of the above mentioned parts.. direct wiring would give the electricity a super hiway right to the smoke unit (path of least resistance) thereby making sure that it is performing at it's optimum. Hope I got this right and that it helps.. And by the way my son and I were using Super Smoke in a freshly rebuilt Pacific and the smoke got so thick around the Christmas tree and in the living room and dining room this year that we had to stop and open the door and dining room windows.. Based on what I'm reading hear about the 1/2 speed motors I would definately stick to original formula Flyer smoke fluid! Plus it smells so much better than super smoke..
richhotrain: Let me try this again. Why would you get more more smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor? Rich
Let me try this again.
Why would you get more more smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor?
Rich did you mean to ask, "Why would you get more smoke by wiring the smoke unit and headlight directly to the tender and not to the Reverse Unit, Motor or E-Unit (which in Flyer Speak is not an E-Unit that is a word used by those other guys! )
Let me take a stab at this Rich. Perhaps what is happening by direct wiring is that there is less amperage drop across any of the above mentioned parts.. direct wiring would give the electricity a super hiway right to the smoke unit (path of least resistance) thereby making sure that it is performing at it's optimum.
Hope I got this right and that it helps..
And by the way my son and I were using Super Smoke in a freshly rebuilt Pacific and the smoke got so thick around the Christmas tree and in the living room and dining room this year that we had to stop and open the door and dining room windows.. Based on what I'm reading hear about the 1/2 speed motors I would definately stick to original formula Flyer smoke fluid! Plus it smells so much better than super smoke..
Gray Cat,
Thanks for that explanation.
As for the way I worded my question, I was just lifting a direct quote from azflyer's earlier message.
richhotrain Let me try this again. Why would you get more more smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor? Rich
richhotrain Major: For any given speed with a 1/2 speed can motor compaired to a Flyer motor or regular can motor you have to increase the voltage to the track for the 1/2 speed motor to give the locomotive the same speed as other motors. This tranlates into a higher voltage for the smoke unit and therefore more smoke. You can max the transformer throttle on a locomotive that has a 1/2 speed motor and it will speed along the track but not at the same speeds as flyer motors or regular can motors but that max voltage will mean more smoke production! I understand that principle, but enough smoke that you feel compelled to open the garage door? And, why would you get more more, rather than less, smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor? Rich
Major: For any given speed with a 1/2 speed can motor compaired to a Flyer motor or regular can motor you have to increase the voltage to the track for the 1/2 speed motor to give the locomotive the same speed as other motors. This tranlates into a higher voltage for the smoke unit and therefore more smoke. You can max the transformer throttle on a locomotive that has a 1/2 speed motor and it will speed along the track but not at the same speeds as flyer motors or regular can motors but that max voltage will mean more smoke production!
For any given speed with a 1/2 speed can motor compaired to a Flyer motor or regular can motor you have to increase the voltage to the track for the 1/2 speed motor to give the locomotive the same speed as other motors. This tranlates into a higher voltage for the smoke unit and therefore more smoke. You can max the transformer throttle on a locomotive that has a 1/2 speed motor and it will speed along the track but not at the same speeds as flyer motors or regular can motors but that max voltage will mean more smoke production!
I understand that principle, but enough smoke that you feel compelled to open the garage door?
And, why would you get more more, rather than less, smoke by wiring the Dallee electronic reverse unit to the tender, not the E-unit or motor?
I just took this video this afternoon of the 293 NYNH&H 4-6-2 Pacific with the 1/2 speed can-motor conversion and Dallee electronic E-Unit. I ran the train on the inside oval and gradually turned the speed down on the transformer.
Link to video:
The problem was I had the garage door open to let the smoke out. Also school just got out, so you can hear a lot of car traffic in the back ground. So much for realistic sound!
Major For any given speed with a 1/2 speed can motor compaired to a Flyer motor or regular can motor you have to increase the voltage to the track for the 1/2 speed motor to give the locomotive the same speed as other motors. This tranlates into a higher voltage for the smoke unit and therefore more smoke. You can max the transformer throttle on a locomotive that has a 1/2 speed motor and it will speed along the track but not at the same speeds as flyer motors or regular can motors but that max voltage will mean more smoke production!
azflyer But I might get more smoke because I'm going with the Dallee reverse unit and followed their directions on wiring the smoke and light directly back to the tender not to the E-Unit or motor.
But I might get more smoke because I'm going with the Dallee reverse unit and followed their directions on wiring the smoke and light directly back to the tender not to the E-Unit or motor.
Now, why would that be?
azflyer I have my lay out in the garage. The smoke was so thick I had to open the garage door and turn on the big floor fan.
I have my lay out in the garage. The smoke was so thick I had to open the garage door and turn on the big floor fan.
No way !
Seriously?
richhotrain Gray Cat: And where do we buy these cans? I think the idea of getting one of my Hudsons (pulling a Heavyweight consist) to smoke more would be a real treat. GC, I am not sure that you will get more smoke out of a 1/2 can motor than you will out of the vintage open-frame motor, but I am told that the 1/2 can will produce more smoke than the full can. Portlines is a great source for can motors. Here is the link: http://www.portlines.com/ Here is the link to the page listing types of motors and pricing: http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/cgi-bin/shoppl.pl/page=canmotorconvkits.htm/SID=493927372 Rich
Gray Cat: And where do we buy these cans? I think the idea of getting one of my Hudsons (pulling a Heavyweight consist) to smoke more would be a real treat.
And where do we buy these cans? I think the idea of getting one of my Hudsons (pulling a Heavyweight consist) to smoke more would be a real treat.
GC,
I am not sure that you will get more smoke out of a 1/2 can motor than you will out of the vintage open-frame motor, but I am told that the 1/2 can will produce more smoke than the full can.
Portlines is a great source for can motors. Here is the link:
http://www.portlines.com/
Here is the link to the page listing types of motors and pricing:
http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/cgi-bin/shoppl.pl/page=canmotorconvkits.htm/SID=493927372
I just did my second conversion on the 293 4-6-2 NYNH&H with the 1/2 speed can motor from Portlines. My first was a full speed can on a 300 4-4-2 Atlantic. Both conversions I used the 400 Dallee reverse units. I can tell you comparing the full speed to the half speed can motors. You get a lot more smoke with the half speed can motor, because at half speed your putting out just as much smoke as you would be going at full speed. But I might get more smoke because I'm going with the Dallee reverse unit and followed their directions on wiring the smoke and light directly back to the tender not to the E-Unit or motor.
I have my lay out in the garage. The smoke was so thick I had to open the garage door and turn on the big floor fan. But you can do that in Arizona this time of year....
My wife came out it the garage and ask what I was smoking? Just a little cho-choo!
I will get some photos up and maybe a video comparing the two conversions running side by side.
Note: I did find one thing that was interesting. I always bench test everything before putting it back together. When mounting the can motor I found that I had to tweak the clearance between the mounting plate and the engine motor mount. When tightening (hand tight) the allen screws my rpm on the motor drop off quite a bit. I found out by backing off, all most a full turn on the allen screws the can motor ran at its highest rpm. I just went ahead and made a gasket for that clearance for the mounting plate and hand tightened down the allen screws on the can motor. The can motor ran just perfect after that tweak!
Az-Flyer
I have used 1/2 speed motors. You will have improved smoke output because you will be using the higher range on your transformer for moderate to higher speeds and therefore more voltage to the smoke unit. Also when I use a MTH M1000 transformer ALL of my Flyer locomotives smoke better and the Flyer by Lionel smoke alot better. I was told that this is due to the way the sine wave is produced.
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