Need help with Lionel O-Guage. 48' Layout has slow and fast spots.

[Easyrider1269]

Hello,

I am in the process of building an O-gauge layout in my son's room. I built a shelf about 18" from the ceiling and went around the room. It's about 48' long. The shelf looks great and the train operates good. Before I start adding trees, buildings, bridges, tunnels, etc., I have a problem...

The problem I'm having is the train bogs down at two of the corners nearest the power lock-on. And on the other side of the layout, it flies down the track and almost de-rails on the final turn. This is frustrating because when I slow the train down on the fast section, it comes to almost a complete stop on the bogging sections. I've purchased 3 additional lock-ons and bused power all the way around and it didn't help. I noticed when I took some of the track apart and used pliers to squeeze the joints a little and then put it back together, it smoothed out.

So do I need to take the whole thing apart and tighten each connection with pliers, or is there a cleaner I can use to clean the pins? Clamping down with pliers on each joint doesn't seems like the proper way to fix the problem - plus it's scratching and bending the track a little... 

Oh, I'm using regular O-scale (black ties) track. Some of it is brand new (very tight fit) and some has been in storage for about 6 years but never used...

Help please. :)

Thanks

[CB&Q]

  and hello to you! yes it sounds like a few things going on if you can put sections of track together very easily  then usually the track pins or the openings in the track end being put over pins is to large and needs to be crimped smaller to ensure a good connection the pins act as a wire to bridge power from track joint to the next they sell a special pliers to do this not sure where to get one am sure someone here will chime in with that information.

 the second thing is to clean the track even though it looks clean you'll be amazed at what a clean white rag will reveal, I use denatured alcohol works and cleans good and drys pretty quick. you can also get what they call a bright boy eraser and that's what it looks like its made to clean track too.

  you also may have some voltage drop usually I have a track connector every 6' of track this should also help you with a more evenly running train. hope this helps you out some.

[servoguy]

Let me add something about cleaning track. A ScotchBrite pad works very well and will remove light rust or other corrosion. It doesn't harm the track. Don't use sandpaper or anything that is abrasive. Don't use steel wool or you will have a problem with steel particles contaminating your engines especially if you have an engine with magnetraction. Bruce Baker

[Easyrider1269]

Thanks for the tips.

 I actualy did add power to all 4 sides of the layout and that made no difference. So I think I have it narrowed down to a track (connector) issue.

I will try some of those tips you all suggested.

I did notice however that the newer track I have fits together really tight and the older track just slides apart really easy. The section that speeds up is on the newer track. But on the older track, when I tighten up the pin holes, I can barely get the track together without breaking off the middle track tie...

 Maybe an investment in fast track is in order...??

 

[brianel027]

Easyrider, in addition to the practical advice you've been given (well worth doing), a few more thoughts.

- Make sure your feeder wires running to the far ends of your layout are of a heavier wire gauge or you will have power reduction, resulting in the problem you seem to be having. You want to use at least an 18 gauge wire for all your track feeds.

- You mention in another related problem posting you have a New York Centeral Flyer set. I don't know about the new version loco coming with this set, but the prior version loco is the standard 4-4-2 wheel arrangement steamer used for many years.

This loco has a traction tire that can potentially cause the loco to slow on tight curves. Removing the traction tire completely will help with this a little, but will also reduce pulling power of the locomotive.

[Easyrider1269]

Brianel,

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I'm using 18 gauge lamp cord, soldered onto the lock-ons. It doesn't matter where I put the power feeds, the engine till slows down and speeds up in the same spots.

I definitely think I have it narrowed down to a pin/connector issue. I'm going to take all the curves apart and clean them and try bending the pins slightly to achieve a tighter fit.

 Will update with the results...

 Thanks

[phillyreading]

easyrider,

Your problem sounds like loose track connections that can be fixed by using a needle nose pliers to tighten the track at where the pins go into. Don't bend the track pins!!! That will cause an alignment problem with the curve tracks.

I had Fastrac and don't recommend it that well as it gets dirty really fast! Bought some Fastrac at Target and had to clean it a few times to get my Interurban set running good. The other thing about Fastrac is the curve diameter is differant than 031 in Tubular steel track compared to 036 in Fastrac. Next size up in Fastrac is 048 not 042.

Lee F.

[Ole Timer]

Phillyreading :  " Fastrack gets dirty really fast " .... I really don't understand that ????  It's probably the most least maintenance free track out there . And Easyrider probably WOULD NOT  be having all those connection problems with it .....

[phillyreading]

Ole Timer

Phillyreading :  " Fastrack gets dirty really fast " .... I really don't understand that ????  It's probably the most least maintenance free track out there . And Easyrider probably WOULD NOT  be having all those connection problems with it .....

Ole Timer,

That has been my experiance with Fastrac using it upstairs, the rails would get dirty really quick. Maybe my place has a moisture problem as I can not use regular GarGraves track, it has to be stainless steel.

Lee F.

[lionelsoni]

If you get the track-joint problem solved, the 18-AWG feeders are close to useless.  Their resistance is roughly twice that of the track itself, which is approximately equivalent to 16 AWG.  With a complete 48-foot circle of track connected by good track joints, you should have about 50 milliohms of resistance to the point farthest from the transformer, which will give you only a .25-volt drop with a heavy 5-ampere train.

If all else fails (or even if it doesn't), you can solder the track joints.  You may find this easier to do by laying a short piece of bare copper wire on the rail flange, across the joint.  I solder my rails and also dispense with the track pins so that I can remove sections of track without uprooting the whole layout.

Be sure your track wiring is heavy enough to carry the transformer's maximum current safely.  This is 14 AWG for 15 amperes, 16 AWG for 10 amperes, and 20 AWG for 5 amperes.  (I would use no lighter than 14 AWG no matter what.)

[dsmith]

Another possibility is that the layout isn't level.  On my Christmas layout I noticed a change in speed as the train goes up or down a slight imperceptable incline or decline.  If you have a carpenters level, check near the area where the train speeds up and see if is going down a decline.  Another way to check is to reverse the direction of the train.  If the fast area of the track is now the slow area, then it must be that the track is not level.

[servoguy]

Dave, That is a very good point. Toy trains are just like real trains and are very sensitive to grade, even very small grades. Toy trains are also very sensitive to curves as the engine wheels must slip around a curve, and the flanges rub the rails. Real trains are no so sensitive as they wheels steer around the curve. I still will keep saying that the best way to make electrically good connections with tubular track is to bend the track where the pins are installed. I bend the center rail to the right and the left rail to the left. I bend the rail and not the pin. I bend the rail so that the end of the pin is about half a diameter to the right or left. This makes a good electrical connection and does not require you to bend the female ends of a track section. The track goes together easily and comes apart easily and still makes a good connection. Also, you only have to bend the track once in your life time. Let me also point out that squeezing the female ends of the track DOES NOT make a good electrical connection. The connection in the female end may be good, but the connection on the end where the pins are installed is not good. If the pins are at all loose where they are installed, you may end up with a high resistance connection. I speak from much experience on this subject. After squeezing the female ends for almost 60 years, I realized that this technique does not work. I started bending the rails about 6 months ago, and now have a layout on the floor with very good electrical connections. I know bending the rails is unconventional, and it is not what Lionel says to do, but the Lionel engineers didn't think of everything. Also, one guy posted on this thread and said that bending the pins will cause the track to be out of alignment. First, I am not proposing to bend the pins, but rather to bend the rails. And no, it does not cause the track to be out of alignment. If you try it and don't like it, you can always bend the rails back straight. Bruce Baker

[lionelsoni]

Most prototype locomotive trucks do not steer.  The EMD HTCR truck is an exception.  On the other hand, prototype curves are vastly gentler than toy-train curves.

[servoguy]

Bob, I am not sure what you mean by "most prototype locomotive trucks do not steer." All the trucks and wheels on real locos and cars steer around the corners and the flanges are not supposed to touch the rails although they do occasionally. The steering of the trucks and wheels is done by the taper of the wheels. Bruce Baker

[lionelsoni]

The conical wheel tread produces a rotation rate about the center bearing that is proportional to lateral displacement.  The lateral velocity is proportional to the rotation angle.  The solution to the differential equations for these relationships is an undamped sinusoid.

If the cone is reversed, so that the lesser diameter is close to the flange, the sinusoid is replaced by an outward motion that must be continuously restrained by the flange's rubbing against the rail, causing rapid wear of both.  The real reason for the conical tread is to give the wheel a useful lifetime before the wheel wears to this degree.  When a wheel wears to a cylindrical profile, it is condemned. 

The sinusoidal oscillation is a byproduct of the wear consideration.  I had the occasion to observe it easily some years ago riding on the Cass Railroad in West Virginia.  I could easily see the truck through the large gaps in the floor of the converted flatcar.  The oscillation was obvious and continuous, but not fast enough nor great enough to produce any sensation of sidewards motion.  In the steady state, the flanges barely kiss the rail at the very peaks of the oscillation.

In very high-speed passenger trains, the oscillation frequency is high enough to be a concern.  One technique that is being tried is independent rotation of the wheels, with active control of the wheel speed, a sort of roll-by-wire.

The HTCR (high-traction 3-axle radial) truck moves the bearings of the outer axles fore and aft in response to the angle that the truck makes with the locomotive body, so that all three axles are perpendicular to the rails, that is, radial.  The axles are still solid; so there is no difference in tread wear.  But flange and rail wear is reduced.

[servoguy]

Bob, Good explanation. I have known for a long time that the truck were steered by the taper of the wheels. However, at the same time, I have wondered how the motion is damped as energy is being put in by the forward motion of the train, and so it would seem that the motion is going to be an undamped sine wave as you state. The rotation of the bolster provides some friction damping as does the slight contact of the flange with the rail. It would seem that a yaw damper on the bolster would improve the situation, but then it is another mechanical piece to maintain, and it might have to be rather large and heavy as the angular motion is very small. I can see that this could get to be exciting as the train speed increases. More energy is going into the trucks because of the increased train speed. Bruce Baker

[servoguy]

Bob, It is interesting to try to figure out how the energy gets from the forward motion of the train into the lateral motion of the car. Clearly, the energy has to come from the forward motion of the train as the engine is the only energy source, and the lateral sway is dissipating energy. It is likely that the energy dissipation on each cycle is quite small as the bolster should be greased, and the contact of the flange with the rail is not severe. However, I expect it is the flange against the rail that is the primary placed where energy is dissipated. There is some longitudinal oscillation of the car due to the angle of the couplers changing as the car sways back and forth. I suspect that this longitudinal oscillation is what is pumping the sway motion. The flanges hitting the rails act like a limiter that one might use on a two integrator which is being used as an oscillator and is being pumped by a little positive feedback. Bruce Baker

[Easyrider1269]

ok, I took the entire layout apart and cleaned the rails, pins and joint holes. I then put it all back together (roughly in the same order as before) and it still slows down and speeds up at points. BTW, I'm using the 40w transformer that came with the set - could that be too small for 48'? Should I use a bigger transformer? 

Also, the layout is almost perfectly level all the way around.

I'm pretty much at the end of my rope. I actually like the soldering idea. I have 52 joints though - X2, that's 104 solders. Yikes! Cheaper than fastrack though...

If that doesn't work, the train runs ok. It's just annoying that it doesn't run at a consistant speed all the way around.

[freed]

Have found that the best way to determine if you are having problems with track connections is to measure the voltage on the track. This way you quickly find the tracks with poor connections and repair or replace the track which drops too much voltage.

[Ole Timer]

  A little 40 watt transformer ?  ........................    ......

[lionelsoni]

The transformer is supposed to put out a nearly constant voltage.  The train then draws as much current as it needs to do its work.  If your 40-watt transformer is able to supply the current, the result is pretty much the same as if it were a 400-watt transformer.  If it is not, eventually the circuit breaker will trip in protest against the excessive current.

There is a subtle difference however.  All transformers have a certain finite output impedance, which, like the resistance of your wiring, causes the voltage to drop somewhat in response to the current that you draw.  A 40-watt transformer has more output impedance than a bigger transformer.  So it is possible that the increased load on your train as it goes around curves, or up the grades that have been suggested, slows down the train, not only directly, but also indirectly by lowering the voltage in response to the greater current drawn.

If you have a voltmeter available, you can check this out by putting the meter right at the transformer terminals and running the train.  If you can see the voltage dropping when the train slows down, that may be significant.  Then try continuously adjusting the transformer to keep the voltage constant as the train goes around the loop.  If that eliminates the slowdown, then you might hope that a much larger transformer will solve your problem.

[CB&Q]

 where the engine slows mark that area and then go and check track for all 3 track pins having a nice snug fit if loose tighten them up. also clean the wheels on your locomotive if you have a dremel tool with the wire wheel attachment use it to clean them and that too will help it run smoother.

[servoguy]

I would advise against using a wire wheel to clean wheels on an engine with Magnetraction. The wire wheels shed wires from time to time, and these wires may foul the wheels or the gears driving them. A little isopropyl alcohol on a paper towel should remove whatever oil or grease is on the wheels. Bruce Baker

[J. Daddy]

Well to save your sanity go get a Digital Multimeter and take a voltage reading at the 'fast' point and 'slow' point. What is your reading? If you see a difference in the voltage read you have a voltage drop due to the resistance of the track. The best way to eliminate any issue is use 14AWG wire from end to end, than run your 18AWG feeders to the track every 3 ft. You will never have this issue again...If you do not have a change in the voltage reading you have an issue with the engine binding into the curve.

[lionelsoni]

With no train running, you will measure everywhere the same voltage as at the transformer terminals, even if the track and wiring resistance is quite high.  So measuring the voltage at the track will not tell you anything unless you measure it as the train is passing.  Even then, if the voltage drops, all it tells you is that there is a resistance somewhere between the measurement point and the transformer, or even inside the transformer.  Then you have to figure out where that resistance is.

A further complication is that the locomotive will draw more current in a curve, causing a voltage drop that you can't tell from one due to track, wiring, or transformer resistance.

[Easyrider1269]

Thanks again for all the helpful tips. So far, except for soldering, I have tried them all with little luck.

Here are the facts:

1. Layout is level

2. Voltage is the same all the way around

3. All track has been cleaned and connecting holes cleaned

4, I have tightened all connecting holes

5. I mixed up all the track so that no section is in the same spot as before.

6. I have 4 additional power feeds around layout.

7. I have tried connection the transformer feeds at other locations.

With all this, the train still slows down and speeds up at the same pounts. I'm pretty much at wits end. Hahaha.

I guess I need to upgrade to fastrack.

Baffled....

[lionelsoni]

You say, "oltage is the same all the way around".  Do you mean that you observed the voltage at the transformer terminals, as I suggested, while running the train around the loop and saw no variation as the train slowed down?

[Easyrider1269]

Oh, no - I didn't try that. Let me try...

Even then, I'm still baffled because as I said, I mixed up the track sections so they were all in a different spot and the train still slows and speeds up in the exact same spot. And the shelf is level all the way around. Bizarre. Could electrical wires inside the wall cause interference and resistance??

My kids don't care that the train slows and speeds up - it just bugs me because I know it isn't right....

All else aside, is fastrack more reliable than standard Lionel track?

[8ntruck]

Interesting thread, this one.

I'm running both Fastrack and postwar O27, laid loose on a ping pong table (Ping Pong Plains Division of the KATY Central).  In my experience, I don't see much difference in the reliability of either track system.  I've had joints seperate on both types of track - though much more often on the O27 because of its age and the number of times it has been assembled and disassembled. If I would fasten the track down, this problem would go away. 

As far as the amount of cleaning the track needs, the frequency on my layout seems to be more related to the run time on the track rather than the type of track.

The Fastrack is noisier than the O27.  Something to consider there.

Good luck.

[Easyrider1269]

Ok. I used the multimeter while the train was running. And yes, the voltage increases exactly at the fast spots and decreases exactly at the slow spots.

So, I think it's pretty much a track problem. How do I make the connections tighter? I've made them tighter with pliers to the point where each section is very difficult to put together. I need to use gloves, they're so tight so I don't cut my hands. I must admit, I didn't tighten all the joints - just where it slows down. Should I tighten every joint on the whole layout?

Is there a special tool that tightens the joint holes? I feel like using regular pliers is ruining the track....