I've pretty much vented my frustration and have gotten it out of my system. I do wish there was a way to unify every aspect of the scale to under one roof though but sadly that will probably never happen.
Fred,
I have been following this discussion since the start, and the best advice I could give would be to buy and do whatever makes you happy. Don't concern yourself with what others think or say about what you are buying or doing. I've got what I call a Tupac philosophy for people that give me grief for what I buy, do, or say, but I wouldn't ever post it here.
I wouldn't stress over what people say online either. In some places, if you don't buy items that come in a certain color box, or "buy my book", you are looked at differently. Don't let that get you down.
Rant over.
This thread caught my attention after going to the WGH show in Long Beach on Sunday and while looking at all of the operating layouts and making sure to give compliments to everyone we stopped and looked at a 2 rail O scale layout. I am amazed how the track is hand layed and told my wife how impressive it seemed to be. We talked to two of the operators who told me after finding out we have a 3 rail Fastrack layout, in a really grumpy manner " we'll pray for you."
Whatever. Maybe just too much fiber that day? I will just add them to my ignore list.
Founding member of the All Aboard Fastrackers! See us at: www.allaboardfastrackers.com
How can an opinion be wrong?
Human nature. Even if you repeat what I said word for word you are wrong because you said it and not me. It is our human legacy to disagree. It started with Eve disagreeing with God.
Why are attitudes like this still prevalent?
Passed down from the first man and woman.
What happened to the good old days?
They expired.
They just can't forgive me for this statement and just keep building on it making things worse.
Sort of like FOX News?
Personally I rather enjoy hearing all the opinions. Even if someone gets passionate and screams it at me.
..........Wayne..........
Sometimes you just need to vent. In my case it's quite often! It's reassuring to see that there are others that feel the same way.
I've been reading these posts over and over ... and it's really upsetting to see all the anger and argueing . Please guys ... STOP .... this world and problems we all face in our lives everyday are more than enough to deal with . I nor anyone has the right or justification to down anyone else's choice or design of their choices . I myself have been blasted by those very few of little intelligence and big mouths ..... which at first angered me and they received a flameing reply ... but those days are over .
Don't let them drag you down to their level . IGNORE !!! When they start paying all your bills and support your families totally ... maybe they may have a bit of a say ... I have a pic here that in my opinion displays what they are like in life ... save it and print it ... when one of them makes their remarks .... just look at it and laugh them off next time
It's actually quite funny that one individual made a sarcastic comment about how my Lionel SD-70ACe would look "real good" running down my stud rail because it still has large couplers and nonfixed pilots. I'm actually planning to change them but that's my choice. It's my engine. The condescending part is that he thinks it will look absolutely terrible to have an O scale engine that still has large couplers and non fixed pilots as opposed to a fixed pilot version from MTH. I've also been told time and again that scale modelling has nothing to do with the track and involves only the trains. By this standard scale modelling in 3 rail O scale means that your trains are fully detailed but you can run them on carpet. Nothing against that of course. If that's your thing, go for it. Just have fun! However if I were to take lets say a very nice Atlas Master series box car, and keep the large couplers on it and then run it on the most detailed accurate O scale 3 rail layout ever seen, this is NOT 3 rail scale modelling. Once Kadee couplers are installed, then it becomes scale modelling. That is simply the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard! The couplers make or break it in terms of being scale. Kadees aren't exactly scale looking anyways. They are better but there are much nicer ones for those seeking absolute accuracy.
Keep in mind that large 3R wheels are perfectly fine when it comes to 3 rail scale modelling as it isn't about the wheels. It's about everything but the wheels. Of course unless we are talking about the earlier mentioned Lionel SD-70. Since it has 2 wheels with overly large flanges, suddenly it is about the wheels. Oh yeah, and the pilots. They have to be fixed. And the couplers have to be changed. One more thing, even if this was all done, then it was suggested it would still look stupid without full length handrails on fixed pilots. Track still doesn't matter though and I've been told time and again that their standard (wait they don't have one? Strange?) is Scaletrax from MTH. It's a nice looking track system but my stud rail is the closest to absolute scale accuracy of any O scale track. It isn't for everyone though. If MTH would have made it, it probably would have been nicer. But it wasn't.
It is these types of contradictory views that are so strange and I just don't see vies like this in the other scales. So closed minded and not open to interpretation. It is claimed that scale modelling has no rules only guidelines and yet there are so many rigid "rules" that it's hard to find anyone who is truly that type of modeller. Suggest to any of them that they aren't and you'll get an earful! Some of them have truck mounted couplers (Kadee's) due to tight curves yet are scale modellers. I don't remember truck mounted couplers on the real thing. Hmmm. One such person, who incidentally is VERY well known in O scale, told me that I "just don't get it". I think I do. I understand that because I liked a Lionel product better than an MTH that I am now a strange outcast that doesn't believe in scale accuracy. I guess not. I believe in buying what I want, not what others like best and I'll mix it up if I want to. Yes I am still a scale modeller too. I'm a scale modeller who also like nonscale trains.
Remember Fred that all model railroading is a form of fantasy. Even the most accurate scale model cannot perfectly replicate the real world. Mountains would have to protrude through the tops of our houses. I have just as much respect for the scale guy as I do layouts that have that charming toy train look. Both have so much to offer to this great hobby. All of our personal opinions should be given respect on these pages. Don't let a few closed minded individuals discourage you from posting your opinion on various products and building techniques. If you don't take our hobby too seriously you will get more enjoyment from it.
STEVE
Bruce......you got me thinking, We could take what you have pointed out and by extension accurately conclude that virtually nothing on the layout is scale! I like it!
Jack.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Ask the ultra scale guys how many miles of track they have. A mile of O gauge track is 110 feet long, and the last time I looked, a mile of track didn't even qualify a railroad as a short line. The point is, you can't do everything to scale. If we all tried to make a scale curve, we would get about 10 deg into the cure and hit the wall. That is why Lionel made O-31 and O-27 track. If they only tried to sell O-72, not many people could find room. And O-72 isn't scale. In my case, I run O-31 because I am running it on the carpet, and I like the 022 switches. I don't care one whit about scale. I have some stuff that is scale, but most of it is post war Lionel. I don't have any scenery or buildings or any of that stuff because I have to walk about the layout to put the train on the track of fix something. If I put scenery on the layout, there would be no place to walk. I have two bedrooms full of track, and the track has 41 switches. Does this resemble a rail road? Not at all, but it is what I enjoy doing, watching the train run around a very complex layout rather just loops. Does that mean I should criticize the guys with loops? Of course not. They like what they are doing and having fun. I am reminded of a cartoon in a book of model railroad cartoons I have. One guy (with a very self satisfied look on his face) is telling his friend that he has modeled the Boston and Maine at 2:23 in the afternoon on March 31, 1952. He called it ultra scale.
Another scale that we ignore is the time scale. How many modelers control their trains to take as long as a real train takes to reach speed? That could make things really boring. We compress time so we can have more things happen in a given amount of time. Does that mean a guy who has time scaled 1:1 is a better modeler than the rest of us? Or does it mean we should compress time 48:1? And then a z scale guy should compress time 225:1, which would make things happen really fast on his layout?
I'm having fun!!!!
Bruce Baker
But Fife, I AM special, though that is not the exact term my wife uses. Jack.
brianel027The products were toys aimed at boys along with their fathers.
Amen
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Good post there Fred and I agree with you. My take on it is that my trains were toys and I played with them when I got them back in the fifties and that's exactly what they still are. Fun is the name of the game for me and postwar 027 does the trick. Let others have and do what they want. It's their time and money. Keep on having fun everyone!
Well, to answer the original question above:
Folks have a basic need to feel special.
One troubling thing about you Fred...Why in the Wide-Wide-World of sports would you want to go to another forum
Interesting post and comments. Now, let me see: "Classic Toy Trains"...Toy trains that represent typical and well-known "Real Life" trains. (Z,N,TT,HO,S,O,G)--All are still toy trains.
I think the 'disparity' only comes to light when someone takes a "purest" approach to his own interpretation of "what should be" and tends to be a bit dictatorial. Sure, there are differences in the nomenclature and physical attributes within the "O" world but I wonder if it really matters.
To me, its a hobby and should be enjoyed. I play with my trains. I admire the modelers who work hard at their aspect of the hobby. There's room for everyone. At my age, I just let the other guy preach his sermon and then I do my thing with my 'O27' trains and have fun.
You are correct!I've always felt and I voiced my opinion on this here forum that there should only be ONE 1:48 Scale--PERIOD!
These, companies just want to make a sale and say that they are accommodating the consumer's needs.
B.S.!!!!!!
The only thing about 1:48 Scale, or it's variations, is it's popularity and how much can the consumer spend, not really the available size of the consumer's layout space.
That Is MY, DUE TO THE PRESENT ECONOMY, ONE CENT WORTH!
Ralph
RockIsland52 In SPF a few weeks back one poster who I believe said he also was a high railer commented on a guy's layout, that it was "very nice" but with the added caveat " for a toy train approach." A compliment with a qualifier like that to me was an insult and totally unnecessary. Why couldn't he just compliment and let it go?
In SPF a few weeks back one poster who I believe said he also was a high railer commented on a guy's layout, that it was "very nice" but with the added caveat " for a toy train approach." A compliment with a qualifier like that to me was an insult and totally unnecessary. Why couldn't he just compliment and let it go?
tomikawaTT Now, IF everyone who models in any of the above (or in some other scale/gauge) acknowledges that other people who model in something else above (or in some other scale entirely) has made a choice based on THEIR conditions, and stop treating their choice (made to fit their conditions) as The One True Faith (and all who do otherwise are heretics) maybe we would see more light and less heat. Personally, I am a real minority scaler. Nevertheless, I enjoy seeing what others are doing, whether good or not so good, regardless of the scale or track gauge of the models - and I promise that I will never try to 'convert' anyone to my choice of scale or prototype.
Now, IF everyone who models in any of the above (or in some other scale/gauge) acknowledges that other people who model in something else above (or in some other scale entirely) has made a choice based on THEIR conditions, and stop treating their choice (made to fit their conditions) as The One True Faith (and all who do otherwise are heretics) maybe we would see more light and less heat.
Personally, I am a real minority scaler. Nevertheless, I enjoy seeing what others are doing, whether good or not so good, regardless of the scale or track gauge of the models - and I promise that I will never try to 'convert' anyone to my choice of scale or prototype.
You hit it pretty well their Chuck. It's not the size difference that is the issue. It's the attitude of many people that is.
I'd definitely say I'm a minority modeller. I am pursuing stud rail (and am getting closer to being able to sell it btw!) yet I intend to obviously stay 3 rail as that's what stud rail is, but I am going to run DCC as opposed to AC powered using Legacy/DCS. My n-scale layout already uses an Easy DCC system and I only have one O engine that has sound. My 2 favorite engines are my brass outside 3rd rail engines from the 40's. I'm half tempted to leave them as is and just run outside rail as I also have an easy solution for that. I'm pretty much into realism but I stop short of counting every single rivet and getting ever tiny detail perfect. Somehow there are some people that think I'm still not into 3 rail scale modelling due to one particular engine I own. I also dabble in O27 so I guess now I'm really not a scale modeller! Oh well.
In regards to G scale, are you referring to train sizes or opinions? I know there are many different scales.
Fred, part of the problem you speak of is that people are just opinionated, Which is fine, until they pronounce their "opinion" as the best or only way.
Part of the problem too is that for the vast majority of Lionel's long history, the trains were O-gauge and NOT O-scale. Sure there were products like the Trainmaster and the F-3's that were pretty darn close to scale proportions, but the vast majority of products were selectively compressed in one way or another. The products were toys aimed at boys along with their fathers.
In the past couple decades the train makers came up with the novel idea of doing something that hadn't been done much before... going to accurate scale proportions. And it worked. With the advent of the digital control technology and related features, locomotives almost need to be full scale to allow room for the larger motors and added electronics, though the circuit boards have been getting smaller over recent years.
Now the products are more aimed at middle-aged men and not boys. Truth be told, nearly all the adults in the 3-rail hobby today are here because we had toy trains as kids. Though that seems to get forgotten in the choir of selfish adults saying "make this for me and make it this way and make it right now" which to me is more annoying than kids teasing for something. And isn't teasing and whining something we try to teach children not to do. Hmmm. Some didn't learn that lesson as children I guess.
All these new features and realism have brought many back into the hobby. And with little question this new scale trend is the fastest growing segment of the 3-rail train hobby. BUT with no question it is NOT the majority of the hobby... the traditionally sized trains based on the past is still the biggest part of the 3-rail market.
And here's where the problem enters. Instead of saying "the more the merrier" some believe the traditional side of the hobby prevents more scale products from being made. Actually the far larger sales on the traditional side of the hobby allow the more scale products to be made. Remember Lionel is still the biggest player and sells more trains than all the other 3-rail companies combined, even though other companies like MTH and Atlas focus more on scale sized products. But heck, even Atlas has realized there is money to be made on the traditional end of the hobby, which is why they bought the Industrial Rail line and have expanded it.
Here's my thinking: The only 3-rail trains of any scale proportion that are truly best are the ones that YOU like the most. Period. What works for you is the best. And if it doesn't work for you, then it isn't the best.
So when I see threads on DCS or TMCC or scale products, I tend to ingnore those as it isn't my interest or area of expertise. I have nothing constructive to offer as far as help or pointers. I haven't always adhered to that in years past, but I do now.
Where I can offer tips and pointers on the traditionally sized 027 trains which I like and that's where you see me posting.
If more folks followed the age old advice of "if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it" the hobby might actually be better than it already is.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Fred.....in an adjacent CTT thread on scale versus Baby Hudsons which you probably have read, Don posted a 1943 photo of a New Haven freight. The steamer sizewise appears to dwarf some of the cars, and some of the cars dwarf other ones. Don wrote something to the effect that size is in the eyes of the beholder, very aptly put.
A high railer, who posted here on CTT a few months back in a similar scale discussion, pointed out that in real life these size mismatches are common and are arguably more correct to the discerning hobbyist.
I understand and respect those who want to be down to the essence of the detail. But not everyone shares that passion for total visual continuity and perfection..... or for that matter assembling a consist that is period and regionally correct. Each to his own.
The O scale nuances you went over in detail have an educational value for us all, and I thank you for that. This is a diverse hobby filled with so much choice, and I would hope we keep in mind the hobby is for the great and small alike. Elitism and rudeness has no place in it.
Jack
There is only minimal disparity in 0 (as in zero) scale, which is either modeling .25"/1' or 7mm/1'.
There isn't any disparity in 0 gauge, which is 1.25" between the rails.
Where the smoke, fumes and fury arise is in the confusion between the two, and the inclusion of other things done in the name of 0 gauge but not modeled to 0 scale:
I'm sure I missed a few.
Of course, if you think that 0 scale/gauge/whatever is bad, just check with our G gauge friends over at the Garden Railways forum.
Chuck [Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - 1:80 scale, 16.5mm gauge (aka HOj) with a lot of tinplate rolling stock]
I know what you mean, I've met say an O 2-railer and got talking about some O craftsman's kit I was building or something and the guy would be interested in talking to me until at some point something would come up indicating I had a three-rail / hi-rail layout and it would be like "Oh...you're a TOY train guy..." like as if he just realized he was talking to an idiot or something.
One thing I like about the three-rail crowd is it seems to me like they are a bit more open to other folks opinions and ideas. A "scale only" 1:48 hi-rail builder, a pre-war tinplate collector and a post-war Lionel operator can visit each other's layouts and appreciate each other's work and their trains.
p.s. I agree, I always have like the term "electric trains" since it covers the whole gamut - tinplate, scale, two/three rail, narrow gauge etc. are all electric trains (unless you're a live steamer I guess!)
No it wasn't that thread but I do think it was that forum.
I'm not really concerned with what others think of my opinions. I am a bit confused why there is so much animosity in O scale towards other aspects of it? There doesn't need to be. I had actually mentioned that perhaps people should relax and enjoy their trains and then got an earfull from a few others about how I shouldn't be telling them what to do or how to do it. Some people are so focused on only one aspect of the hobby that you aren't a scale modeller in O scale until you at least have Kadee couplers and fixed pilots on your engines yet overly large flanged 3R wheels though don't seem to matter. You're still a scale modeller. Oh yeah, Lionel doesn't qualify either but MTH does. It's that type of lunacy that I take exception to. It's ridiculous. Keep in mind the above is an example. I like it all. What if my curves are too tight for fixed pilots? There is lots of very long equipment out there today and even O-72 can be quite sharp in some instances.
My point of this thread wasn't because I am taking things personally although it can be easy to do. The point of this is to question why this disparity among various aspects of O scale even exists. Why isn't everyone in O an O scaler? N scale people are n-scalers or n modellers. I never got chastised there for wanting my couplers on my trucks as opposed to body mounted. No one cared. They did what they wanted to do and respected everyone else for their views. Preferences aside. Sometimes I feel like O scale is the High Schooler of the model railroading community. That's what it reminds me of. Everyone needs to fit in with one group and then solely adhere to those standards or fear being outcast and ridiculed everytime you show your face. It doesn't matter if some of their own standards conflict with their ultimate goal. I'm really trying to figure out how this all came to be as to me it makes no sense. Why should I care how many rails someone else has or what couplers they use?
I'm sure there is probably at least one person from that thread who will read this one over here and link this one back to there in an attempt to showcase how I'm so against them. I'm not against their modelling or techniques. I'm against condescending attitudes towards others in a hobby that is centered around personal creative license and artistic freedom.
What happened to the good old days when people like John Allen who had some interesting non prototypical couplers and a whimsical railroad name were considered greats? There was Frank Ellison with his O scale Delta Lines which used outside 3rd rail for electrical simplicity even though 2 rail already existed. His railroad was also fictitious. These were people who liked accuracy but could still remain fun about it. They were the original rivet counters but they still possessed the ability to look past certain things in the name of running and enjoying their trains. As Frank once put it, the stage may have problems but the show must go on! Somehow I think many have missed this. I see people complain that a new set of passenger cars was released in a railroad that never had them or that one little detail was off so that person will no longer buy that manufacturers products until they get their act straight. So what?! I don't get it. It's very strange how in today's world of intolerance, people expect you to tolerate their views but if you are against them then they'll throw it right back at you. Strange. It's strongest in O scale though which is the mystery to me and what I am trying to figure out.
Fred
Hi Fred,
I think that I know which forum you are talking about, and it may have been a thread about the Veranda Turbines in particular, if I am not mistaken. For what it's worth(if I am right about the thread and forum) the Real Verandas had swinging pilots, NOT solid pilots, anyway. And in HO, the defacto standard coupler, the Kadee, is over-size for the scale also, maybe NOT as MUCH, as O Gauge couplers, but still oversized none the less.
The suspected forum tends to be very partial to Purple and Yellow boxes, and anything that came in an Orange and Blue box, isn't worthy of discussion over there, to many of the regulars. Mike can do no wrong.
As far as model trains go they ARE ALL TOYS. regardless of size, scale, detail or cost, they are all toys. They are not tools, they provide no service, and the only things that they produce are SMILES and FRUSTRATION,, in always varying proportions, but the are still TOYS.
Some people must tear others down, rather than stand on their own accomplishments to feel good about themselves.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Why worry a minute about the opinionated folks on any forum? Enjoy the trains and share your opinions as you see fit. Nothing makes everyone happy so don't try. Who says anyone else's opinion matters an iota anyhow? O scale may be subdivided so much because it was the early scale and growth made many options available .......
I am going to take your side in this ( I read all the way through and ENJOYED it). I was brought up in the world of HO scale and did that for 20+years, but the layouts were my fathers and lacked the realism that layouts today in that scale have. I switched to "O scale" a few yaers back (after a brief stop in N scale). Because of my interests, my O scale layout features 027 track, weathered with added ties and realistic scenery and operation. I use 027 style equipment because I feel the look is close enough to real for me. I am a model railroader, not a historian, so capturing the feel is what is important to me. I enjoy my time in the train room and do not worry at all about what suits other people.
As a side note my father and I along with a family friend are building a two story30x40 Ft / 12x40 ft building on my property for a new HO scale (in the 30x 40 room) and O scale (upostairs) layout(s).
The HO scale layout will be in the style that makes my dad happy.....I am just happy to be able to build a layout with him as an adult! The Oscale layout ( a few years out) will be more in my style. I have learned to enjoy the hobby for what it is........a HOBBY! While there is room for many differant aspects and interests within it, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANYONE TO PUT DOWN WHAT OTHERS DO!
I try to learn from every one, whether it is a prototypical modeler or someone with a circle around a Christmas tree, everyone has something to offer!
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