Trains.com

022/711 Switch operation pblms

54620 views
91 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 554 posts
Posted by runtime on Monday, March 7, 2011 6:18 PM

Ok, I've been (finally) getting around to pulling balky switches out of my layout to see what's up.

Before pulling the layout apart, I followed Bob Nelson's advice and made sure I had 'good' (14 AWG) power and common using 16V from a Lionel 1033 going to each switch.

The first two that were still not switching crisply seemed to only need all sliding surfaces cleaned and lubed with Labeles grease (an 022 and a 711). My next switch with sluggish switching (a 711) did not improve sufficiently with the same lubrication.  All wires seem to be intact and original. I don't have a meter to check conductivity. I did try applying 20V, which produced crisp switching.

I'm not anxious to up all my switch power to 20V. What should I do?

runtime

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Friday, April 30, 2010 11:11 PM
I found a new problem with one of my switches.  The motor seemed to be "lazy", and intermittantly, it would fail to throw all the way.  It took it apart yesterday, and it had burn marks on the sliding conacts.  I thought this was from some WD-40 I had left on the contacts.  Turns out that wasn't the problem. 

I cleaned off the contacts about 3 times and finally decided there was something wrong with the contacts. I grabed the post that moves the poings and moved it to one side. The sliding contact springs came up off the fixed contacts. It was clear that the spring pressure was insufficient. I took a paring knife and slid it under the springs near the center and lifted the spring up and bend the end down. This increased the spring pressure and now the switch is working very well. Just one more thing to check if you are restoring some 022 or 711 switches. I used a ScotchBrite pad to gently clean the contacts.

 Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, April 30, 2010 5:23 PM

For enquiring minds, here's how the diode trick that Bruce advised works:  The root-mean-square (RMS) voltage is what counts for powering things like incandescent lamps; so it's the standard way of describing AC voltages.  The RMS voltage is the square-root of the average of the square of the voltage waveform, which in the usual case is a sinewave.  The square of a sinewave looks like a series of positive pulses coming at twice the frequency of the original sinewave, that is, 120 instead of 60 hertz.  When you put a diode in series with the lamp, the lamp sees only every other one of these pulses; so the average of the pulsed waveform is cut in half.  Since the square-root of one half is about .7, the diode reduces the RMS voltage by about 30 percent.  So 20 volts becomes 14 volts.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Friday, April 30, 2010 11:59 AM

Yes, the diodes are to make the bulbs run cooler.  The bulbs in the controller don't get as hot as the bulb in the switch motor since they are in series with the coils in the switch motor and they are in the open air, but the diodes should make them last a lot longer and run much cooler.

 And, yes, alternate the diodes.  I do this at random, not paying attention to which way I put the diodes in.

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Friday, April 30, 2010 9:55 AM
Bruce, I'm also running my 022s with my KW's 20V fixed voltage, and your recommended modifications and procedures have been working out really well. Is the diode in the controller just to help the bulbs burn cooler? It's funny, as soon as I turn on my power strip to power up my layout, the controller on my panel that's hooked to the pair of 022 (they're wired together, so I only need one controller) lights up, and the bulbs are really bright. I've often thought, "Man, they're gonna melt the plastic!" So I presume that's what the diodes are for?
  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 3,230 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:36 PM

 Alternate your diode polarities from controller to controller.

Rob

Rob

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:27 PM

I modified some 022 switch controllers to add a diode in series with the light bulbs.  I used only one diode.  I cut the metal strap on the bottom in the middle using a Dremel tool and a cut off wheel.  The I soldered a diode across the gap.  I had to clean off the metal with a sanding disc in the Dremel tool so the solder would stick. I also moved the center wire to the stand where the lever is mounted. 

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:18 PM

BTW, I am running the switches using the 20V fixed voltage on a KW.

B

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:17 PM

I have some test data on an 022 switch that I just opened up because it was intermittantly failing to throw properly.  The sliding contacts had some carbon on them which came from the WD-40 I left on them after I cleaned them.  I cleaned this off and reassembled the switch, and it still failed once in 30 tries.  The train throws this switch every minute while it is running. 

What I did not find is any erosion of the contacts.  Some time ago, there was a post about erosion of the contacts on the newer versions of the 022 swiches.  I am happy to report this is not a poblem on the PW switches.

I cured most of the intermittant problems I had with the 022 switches by putting cardboard under the track section that approaches the switch.  Remember, I am running on the carpet, and since the switches are flat on the bottom, they don't sink into the carpet like the track sections do.  Apparently the engine lead truck was bouncing when it first got onto the switch, and this was intermittantly causing the switch not to throw completely.  I first discovered this problem with a 2046 Hudson.

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 8:18 PM

You are both welcome.

You could discretely mark the turnouts with the polarity, e.g., + if the cathode is toward the lamp, - otherwise.

If you are using 1445 lamps, I suggest swapping them for the cooler 53s.  That's what these are, although Radio Shack doesn't identify them by number:  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103782

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 7:51 PM
Cool. I was experimenting with it a little while ago and I saw that it would work either way (also, if you used two in series in the opposite poles, it completely cancelled the AC out!) So I just finished the first one and I'll do the other one the opposite way--probably a good idea to do them opposite by the pair. I'm only doing two of them now, but who knows what the future holds. I thank you (again) and my KW thanks you!
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 7:04 PM

Use absolutely only one per turnout.  You can install it either way; but, if you're modifying several turnouts that will be powered by the same transformer, do half of them one way, half the other.  That way, you will minimize the DC component of the current that is drawn from the transformer, which will avoid core saturation and allow it to run cooler.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 6:15 PM
OK: one successful trip to Radio Shack, and I'm now in business. $3 for a 25-pack of diodes of varying voltage ratings. That seems pretty good to me. Now I'm sure I'll be finding uses for these things all over the layout. When you have a new hammer, everything looks like a nail... One last question: does it matter which way the diode is facing in the lantern wiring circuit? As in, does the anode go toward the coil and the cathode toward the lantern, or the other way around? We've gone this far, don't want to screw it up by wiring it in backwards. Or should I use two in series, and have one anode toward the coil and one cathode toward the coil to smooth out the ACs cycle? Thanks in advance!
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 2:49 PM

 Hey runtime,

I was wondering when you would come back on the radar since you started this thread.  I had been wanting to post all the modifications I was doing to the 022 switches so everyone could have the benefit of this knowledge.  Now I would like to take some pictures to add to the post, but that will take a little while.  Bob Nelson has added a lot of valuable information to this post, also. 

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 10:43 AM

 I have a small magnetic dish that I got at Harbor Freight for holding the screws and other small parts.  It is a big help.

 Harbor Freight also has a digital multi meter for $8 that is plenty good enough for working on trains.  If you are trying to debug an electrical problem, a meter is a big help.  And learn how to use it and learn what E=I*R means.  Or V=I*R. (Ohm's Law)

You can buy drills and taps at Harbor Freight that are plenty good enough for working on trains, and they are relatively cheap.

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 6:00 AM
I'd just like to add: don't drop any of the 4-36 screws on the floor where they will never be found while doing any of this work, either! As Bruce said, 4-36 is not a standard pitch screw, and you'll be standing there @ Lowe's trying to fit a 4-40 screw into your switch saying "Why isn't this b@$t@rd going in here!!!???" Luckily, when I stopped by my local Lionel dealer, they had a box of old screws, fasteners, etc that they let me pick through until I found the Grail. But I don't know what I'd have done if they hadn't had one. So work in a tray or something, just in case. :)
  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Wednesday, February 3, 2010 1:02 AM

 RockIsland,

Don't look at the switch repair as a complex problem.  It isn't.  It is a number of simple steps taken one at at time.  There is very little you can do to mess up the switch as long as you know how to solder.   The only thing that comes to mind that you can mess up is putting the screws in the wrong holes.  The screws that attach the motor to the switch are always 4-36, except in one switch I have, which is very old, and it has 8-32 flat head screws.  I also found some newer versions of the 022 switches have metric screws.  These are very small diameter and very fine thread.  The screws that attach the plastic motor cover can be 4-36, 4-48, or self tapping screws.  Don't mix up the self tapping screws and try to use them where there should be a 4-36.  When you reinstall self tapping screws into the plastic covers, make sure the screw finds the original thread.  If you don't do this, you will most likely lose enough plastic that the screw may not hold.  This goes also for the screws that hold the bottom cover on the switch.   Don't over tighten the screws as you may break them in half, and then you will be talking to yourself.  Oil the two screws that attach the motor to the switch, unless you never expect to take them out again.  I have had one of them seize up due to corrosion.

The 4-36 screws are no longer standard.  During WWII, the standards for fasteners were revised, and 4-40 and 4-48 were designated as the standard.  4-36 screws are still available on the Internet, and Skycraft in Winter Park Florida has a large bin full of them.  Skycraft charges about 20 cents a dozen, but I don't know if they will ship them.  4-48 screws are hard to find also.

Bruce Baker

 

  • Member since
    November 2007
  • From: Cape Ann Taxachusetts
  • 3,780 posts
Posted by RockIsland52 on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 10:53 PM

Bruce......what I want to know is: who was the knucklehead who said toy trains aren't brain surgery.  This stuff makes brain surgery sound simple and quick.  I agree with runtime.  Holy smoke!

Jack

IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 8:51 PM

 While I am thinking about it, here are some more things to do to the 022 switches while you have them apart.  Reflow the solder on the two tabs on the sliding contacts that mate with the pins on the switch itself.  I could not get a reliable contact without doing this.  You have the soldering iron out anyway, and this only adds about 30 seconds to the task. I found it works even better if you clean off the new solder with a wire wheel in a Dremel tool.

The 042 manual switches are a good source of parts.  I have had to replace the switch points on 3 switches, and the 042s were used for parts.  The screws, nuts, switch points, bottom cover are the same as the 022 switches.  The switch points are die cast zinc, and sometimes they go bad. You should be able to buy these very cheaply at a swap meet.

Check the pins.  If the pins are rusty, pull them out and clean them on a wire wheel.  If they are loose, tighten the rail opening before you re-inset the pin.  Check for 0 ohms between the pin and the rail.

I have been pulling out the steel strip that goes through the frog.  It makes the train run smoother through the switch. Some of them have been bent and cause the train to derail.  They were apparently installed to reduce wear on the frog, but after examining many switches, I never saw enough wear to worry about.

I just fixed a switch with a broken lantern holder.  I have a change to the procedure to replace a lantern holder that I posted earlier.  When you are drilling the pilot hole in the rivet for the 4-40 screw, don't drill it all the way through until you have removed the rivet from the switch motor.  If the drill goes all the way through, you will damage the wire for the lamp.  After the pilot hole is part way through the rivet, remove the rivet and drill it through and then tap it. 

Bruce Baker

 

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 8:50 PM
Bruce and Soni: thank you guys very much for all your advice and descriptions on this subject. As previously stated, it's a little (or a lot) of work, but to have them work right, have good connections, electrical continuity, enough voltage to throw cleanly, and not melt plastic seems worth it in the long run. Luckily, I only have two of them to operate on! Thanks also for the description of the diode and how it works (I was wondering where all that energy was going!) and for the tips on wiring it in. Looks like I'm off to Radio Shack tomorrow!
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 554 posts
Posted by runtime on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 8:30 PM

Wow! Just checked back in on this thread that I started.

No wonder I love this forum!!

But...boy do I have a lot of work ahead of me.....oh well, it's a hobby isn't it.Big Smile

runtime

 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 7:59 PM

The resistor will get hot, because whatever fraction of your transformer voltage is not across the lamp will be across the resistor.  For example, if you size your resistor to reduce the lamp voltage by 30 percent, 70 percent will be across the lamp and that 30 percent will be across the resistor.  They will both carry the same current; so the power dissipated in the resistor will be 3/7 of the power dissipated in the lamp.

But, if you put a single 1N4001 (not a zener diode!) in series with your lamp instead of a resistor, the diode will act like a switch.  It will turn the lamp on for one half-cycle of the AC voltage, 1/120 of a second, then off for the next half-cycle, then on, then off, and so on.  During the half-cycle when the lamp is off, there will be no current flowing through the diode, so it won't dissipate any heat.  During the half-cycle when the lamp is on, current will flow, but there will be (almost) no voltage across the diode, so again it won't dissipate any (significant) heat.  So the diode stays cool.  Having its voltage turned on for only half the time has the effect of reducing the voltage at the lamp by 30 percent, so the lamp lights to the same brightness and puts out the same power as it would have in the first example above, using the resistor; but there is no resistor to get hot, just a cool diode.

You can find 1N4001s at Radio Shack:  http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062589 .  The higher-numbered diodes are the same, just with higher voltage ratings than the 50-volt 1N4001.

I recommend that you not use a number-1445, if that is what you were planning.  As I tried to show above, the number 53 is cooler at any voltage.

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 7:51 PM

 Unsolder the wire on the solder tab that is under the constant voltage pin.  I recommend that you solder the tab to the constant voltage pin while you are adding the diode.  I have found several of the constant voltage pins not making a good connection to the solder tab.  I polish the constant voltage pin and the tab with a small wire wheel on a Dremel tool.  This makes the solder flow better.  When you do this, you will have a nice ball of solder to use to attach the diode.  Cut the diode leads until they are about 1/4 inch long.  Then hold the diode by one lead with a pair of needle nose pliers, and solder the other lead into this solder ball.  Then add a bit of solder to the free lead and solder the wire to the lamp to it.

While you have the cover off, you might want to solder the tabs which are on the outer two posts to the posts.  I have found these to be high resistance on some switches.  If you have a meter, you can check them with the meter to see if they are OK.

Also check the wiring and solder.  Some of the switches I have had very poor solder connections.  I found one that did not have the wire to the lamp soldered to the lug at the constant voltage pin.  I have found about 4 of them with the coil wires going the wrong place.  The two wires at the center of the coils should go to the constant voltage pin and not to the spring that comes from the center rail.  If you find one like this, check my post as to how to fix it.

This is all a lot of work but well worth it.  I am up to 67 022 switches now, and it takes 2-3 hours to fix each one.  Last night I had an engine running around part of the layout that has 24 switches, all of which are thrown by the train as it goes through the switch.  I ran the train for over an hour, and never had a switch fail to work properly.  

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 7:39 PM
OK, so I'm finishing up working the 022s into my layout, and I notice that one of the lanterns is starting to melt! So, this is now an immediate issue to address. After a quick Google search (and Wikipedia description,) am I to assume that I'm looking for a voltage reducing diode (Zener diode?) I have a bridge rectifying diode in another application somewhere that I needed to turn AC into DC, but the voltage reducing thing is new to me. I've been using resistors to reduce voltage. After I burned several of them up, I discovered that if I wire two of them in parallel to "share" the load, they do the job just as effectively and don't overheat. But I'm always open to new ideas and new gadgetry!
  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 6:42 PM

A 1N4001 (up to 1N4007) is suitable and easy to find.  A diode will generate very little heat, whereas a resistor will.  Put one diode in series with the lamp.  Eighteen volts will be reduced to about 12 or 13 volts (but don't try to measure it--most voltmeters will give you the wrong number with this circuit).

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 6:20 PM
Hey Bruce: Call me crazy, but I don't see or feel any difference (in brightness or heat) between the #53 bulb and the #1445 bulb. So I went back and re-read your earlier post about the lamps: "I have put a diode in series with the lamp to reduce the brightness and also reduce the power and heat. It works well, and I think the lantern brightness is now more realistic. If you do this, put some of the diodes in one way and some in the other way to balance the load on the positive and negative cycles of the power." So I took the cover off (again!) and I see the power wire going to the bulb's base. So, can you give me a little detail on what you did here? As in, what did you use (diode-wise,) how many, and how do you have them wired? Would a resistor (or a pair wired in parallel, as I like to do them) be simpler, or are we worried about the heat generation? I'd like to do this while I have them apart and I'm in "022 repair/rehab mode" instead of having to fix/replace melted lanterns later. The 18V at the motors is making them work awesome, but I don't see how long those bulbs can hold out. Thanks!
  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Monroe, MI
  • 36 posts
Posted by cabooseboy on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 8:24 AM

wow....you know some stuff about these switches!!! I am kinda new at all this so when you talk about the different parts of the switch i am totally lost. Is there a book out there that explains this stuff with pictures? I would love to try and resurrect an old switch but reading all this seems very intimidating...:(

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 10,096 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, February 2, 2010 7:46 AM

The 18-volt lamps that often get used in attempts to reduce lamp power are 1445s.  The number 53 lamp runs cooler than the 1445 at any voltage.

Lamp ratings are a tradeoff among voltage, current, efficacy, and lifetime.  The ratings of the two lamps are

  #53  14.4 V  120 mA  1728 mW  1    mscp  1000 hr
  #53  18   V  136 mA  2442 mW  2.18 mscp    69 hr
#1445  14.4 V  135 mA  1944 mW   .7  mscp  2000 hr
#1445  18   V  150 mA  2700 mW  1.53 mscp   137 hr

The numbers in italics are values that I calculated using the rules that for incandescent lamps current varies as the .55 power of voltage, light output as the 3.5 power, and lifetime as the -12 power.  The 1445 is actually rated at both 14.4 volts and 18 volts; but that doesn't give it any particular advantage over the 53 in terms of power dissipated at either voltage, as you can see.

For screw-based lamps, the number 52 is cooler than the 1447:

  #52  14.4 V  100 mA  1440 mW   .75 mscp  1000 hr
  #52  18   V  113 mA  2035 mW  1.64 mscp    69 hr
#1447  14.4 V  135 mA  1944 mW   .7  mscp  2000 hr
#1447  18   V  150 mA  2700 mW  1.53 mscp   137 hr

Bob Nelson

  • Member since
    July 2009
  • 951 posts
Posted by servoguy on Monday, February 1, 2010 10:58 PM

 18 volt bulbs are going to run pretty hot on 20 volts.  That is why I put a diode in series with the lamps on my 022 switches.  It cuts the power significantly, and the bulbs are cool enough to touch without leaving skin on the bulb.  I like the high voltage to make the switches operate reliably, but I didn't like the melted lanterns.  Hence the diodes.  My earlier posts tell you where to put the diodes.

Bruce Baker

  • Member since
    January 2010
  • 188 posts
Posted by Taranwanderer on Monday, February 1, 2010 10:04 PM
Bruce: what's the idea behind using the 18V bulbs? Will these run "cooler" then the bulbs that came with the 022s? I put in a pair of 18V bulbs today and they still look pretty bright and feel pretty hot. Am I missing something? Should I put a resistor or two into the circuit between the KW's acc terminal and the first switch to tame some of that voltage? Or am I OK here? Thanks!

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month