Question on a Lionel train set

[Deputy]

I've added an MTH Erie Lackawanna Proto 1 FM loco to my stable and was looking for some scale Lackawanna rolling stock for it. VERY scarce from what I've been able to find so far on E-Bay. Anyway, I spotted this Lionel set and was wondering if anyone knew if this is scale or not?

The set description is Lionel #1451 Erie Lackawanna Limited Train Set 1984.
I have a bad feeling it's traditional size. Nice looking cars, but I need scale. It comes with an SD40 diesel.

[dougdagrump]

Can't help with the scale/non-scale question but it sure seems that the Lackawanna roadname stuff sure seems to fetch a fairly respectable price in the secondary market.

[ogauge]

 If you want true scale, keep looking... some of the cars there are traditional and some are out of the Lionel Standard O line  which probably won't keep you happy if you want scale.  They all have cast in grabs etc and the lettering will be below par for todays offerings.  Of course the SD40 was traditional, ie its short and the cab is too wide to make room for the Pullmor motors.  Its a perfectly fine train set however.  I'd be happy to have it in my stable.

[ADCX Rob]

 The "Standard O" extended vision caboose could pass for scale size, but the rest is all traditional Lionel O gauge equipment all from postwar tooling.

Rob

[Deputy]

Thanks guys. I found some scale MTH cabooses, so that's no sweat. They ARE very pricey...$55-$60 each. Boxcars and rolling stock are tough to locate and also pricey when you do find them. I did find ANOTHER MTH Erie Lackawanna FM loco (30-2619-1) that is scale and grabbed it for $300. It is the grey top version with Proto 2. The other one is the maroon top. Both have smoke. But the newer one is Rail King Scale and not Premiere. Here's the Rail King version: 

 

Here's the Premiere Proto 1 version;

[Train-O]

Deputy,

First off, all of the Deleware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad Company (Lackawanna), Erie and Erie Lackawanna engines and cars you show are great to have, regardless of scale sizes.

Lionel's 1950's Lackawanna maroon roof version, accordingly, had the prototypical roof color scheme and yet their newer #6-18375, L.S.R.L.P. $449.99, 'Standard' 'O' engine in the 2006 Classic Trains, vol.1 catalog shows the engine with a dark grey roof, light grey body, large horizontal maroon stripes, thin hotizontal yellow stripes, some yellow coloring on it's ends and in the photo. it appears that the name 'Lackawanna' is a dark grey.
It states in the catalog: "These Lackawanna Train Master locomotives have been painstakingly replicated with the look and feel of the original prototype."

I don't know what was the actual prototypical color scheme, or are they using a play on words, or did the actual engines have some color variations?  Who, knows? 
These newer 16 1/2" long Lionel models can only be operated in T.M.C.C. and (more play on words)-Conventional Transformer Mode/(Conv. Mode).

What I would like to know is the scale length sizes of the F.M. 'Standard' 'O' and the 'Traditional' engines you show in the photos?

Thank You,

Happy Thanksgiving,

Ralph  

[Deputy]

While I agree the cars in the picture are nice, my stuff is mainly O-Scale, so I need the scale rolling stock.

You have to be careful about two terms....prototypical and scale. As far as I know, ALL FM Trainmasters are "scale size". That includes FMs made by Lionel, MTH, Williams, and K-Line. However, not every FM is "prototypical". For instance, after an exhaustive search done by me and many others on this forum, we did NOT find an FM Trainmaster in the blue/tangerine color of the Jersey Central that Lionel and MTH made and make. It simply doesn't exist in those colors. Lionel must have thought the colors looked nice together (they certainly DO!) and just made an FM in those colors. MTH simply copied Lionel. And MTH recently released yet another tangerine/blue Jersey Central FM and it sold out rather rapidly. So it is a popular color scheme. It just never existed on an FM. Williams went completely bananas with their FMs and not only reproduced Lionel "fantasy" colors, but made FMs for raillroads that never had them (for example New York Central)!!!

As to the Erie Lackawanna colors, the only one I've been able to verify is the maroon top one. Here's a picture of it pulling some heavyweight passenger cars:

 

[Train-O]

Deputy,

Thanks for your reply, as to the terms of prototype and scale. 

I PM you regarding the photo. of the real F.M. engine.

And, yes, I too like O-Scale, as they're more detailed and closer to proportional scale sizes and colors.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Ralph

[Deputy]

Ralph: A hint....black paint may solve your problems

Happy Thanksgiving to you too.

[Train-O]

Dep,

Thanks for you suggestion, with engine smoke discoloring RR. equipment rooftops and bodies, black will solve everything.  No worry of a correct prototypical color.

I E-Mailed the D.L.&W. RR Historical Society and the President Will Shultz recommended a book of D.L.&W. RR. F.M. T.M. by Withers Publishing, which if contacting them direct a book may be purchased from them.
The book has drawings and photos. of Lackawanna and other RRs. which owned F.M. T.M.

I'll check a local hobby shop, which carries a vast number of books and if they don't have it I'll contact Withers Publishing.

Ralph  

[Deputy]

Train-O

Dep,

Thanks for you suggestion, with engine smoke discoloring RR. equipment rooftops and bodies, black will solve everything.  No worry of a correct prototypical color.

I E-Mailed the D.L.&W. RR Historical Society and the President Will Shultz recommended a book of D.L.&W. RR. F.M. T.M. by Withers Publishing, which if contacting them direct a book may be purchased from them.
The book has drawings and photos. of Lackawanna and other RRs. which owned F.M. T.M.

I'll check a local hobby shop, which carries a vast number of books and if they don't have it I'll contact Withers Publishing.

Ralph  

Sounds good. I saw a bunch of books but I had no idea which would be the best reference. And the dang books are pricey!!!

[Train-O]

Deputy,

I contacted Withers, in Halifax, Penna.and the title is: "Train Masters", if you can wait I'll send you a copy in exchange for the Greenberg book.

Ralph

[rtraincollector]

sent you an e-mail and its williams not K-Line like I said for some reason ahve K-Line on the brain lol

 

[Deputy]

Ralph: The Greenberg book will be mailed tomorrow. Sounds great about the exchange but don't go spending a ton of money.

Dep

[Deputy]

Thanks Bill! Pretty cool! Williams actually discontinued that version. I appreciate you finding it,.

[Train-O]

Deputy,

Thank you.

The only thing will be the wait and maybe not what you expect, because I don't exactly know the books contents, even though I asked the publisher and he said that there are various roads and I would have to look for what RR. I want.
He wants to sell books.

Ralph

[lionelsoni]

The title on my copy of the Withers book is "Train Master The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built".  The ISBN is 1-881411-13-3.

[Deputy]

Thanks Bob! How is it as far as pictures?

[lionelsoni]

Lots of pictures.  Line drawings of various model variations.  Separate chapters on Train Master history on various railroads, with rosters.  Complete disposition of all Train Masters made.

[Train-O]

Deputy,

I'm sorry Deputy for not including the whole title, ISBN and more of a description.
Bob's description is more than the publisher's, plus the publisher seemed to be in a hurry.
Thanks Bob for your extensive description of a book which sounds interesting, enjoyable and worthy to have.

Ralph 

[Deputy]

No sweat Ralph. Looks like it's a great book. I will be sending out the Greenberg book today. Probably by UPS. The Post Office already has long lines in front of it.

[Train-O]

Deputy,

Thank you, I hope this is not costing you more by U.P.S., I appreciate it.
My Post Office always is crowded, thanks to the layoffs.

I contacted Withers Publishing, in Halifax, Penna. today, the books go out on the morrow and you should be receiving same in about a weeks time. 
As, per Bob Nelson's desciption of the book it sounds good for enjoyment, entertainment, and as a reliable source of info.

Enjoy,

Ralph

[Deputy]

No sweat about UPS. I sent it this morning and they said it should arrive by next Monday. I have the tracking number and can send it to you in PM. I'm looking forward to that FM book!!!

[Train-O]

Deputy,

No need on the tracking No., but thank you anyway.

A BIG 10-04 Central!

 

Ralph

[Train-O]

Deputy,

Hi,

I received my copy of "Train Master The Most Useful Locomotive Ever Built" by Diesel Era with David R. Sweetland, today Thu, 3 Dec. 2009.

As, Bob-(lionelsoni) mentions the book is really great and in my opinion exceeds my expectations.

When you get yours, you''ll see what Bob means of his description of this book.

Thanks, to both of you, I now have another enjoyable read.

Merry Christmas,

Ralph

[Deputy]

Excellent Ralph!!! I'm really anxious to get this. I got one of my FMs already and it's VERY cool. The maroon roof MTH one. I am still waiting on some battery eliminators to arrive, as even though the dealer installed a new NiMh battery, I want to use a BCR. Anyway, can hardly wait for the book.

dep

[Train-O]

 Deputy,

I've always wanted a F.M. T.R., you and Bob, with his mentioning of the T.R. book, and now that I have the book, are inspiring me to buy one and since D.L.&W. (Lackawanna) RR. was Fairbank Morse's first customer and that Lackawanna RR. serviced the Nanticoke, Penna. coalfields, where my Mother-in-law and her family are from, will be another inspiration for a must buy of a Lackawanna RR. F.M. diesel.

Take Care,

Ralph 

 

     

[Train-O]

Bob,

Your description of the "Train Master" book's contents and Deputies Subject Regarding: "Question On A Lionel Train Set", and it's mention of F.M. T.Ms., has excited me to want a Lackawanna F.M. T.M.

Ever since 1954, when I saw Lionel's first F.M. T.M. 'Lackawanna' with the maroon roof, design, shape and size, have I always want one.
I never did get one, but now I'll make it a point to buy one, thanks to you both.

Ralph  

[Deputy]

Ralph: Was great talking to you on the phone today. If you are looking for a Lackawanna FM, keep an eye on E-Bay. The WIlliams versions are readily available and quite inexpensive. The Lionel and MTH versions will cost more but are usually more detailed. The Willaims FMs can be converted to TMCC and Railsounds fairly easily.  Here's one on E-Bay with the maroon roof:

http://cgi.ebay.com/WILLIAMS-21198-GM-FM-Trainmaster-Lackawanna-MINT-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ390008951108QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item5ace585144

[Deputy]

Now you guys have gone and done it! I was drooling over the FM Trainmaster Demo Loco pictures in the book and found one for sale. Only cost me $179. It has Proto 1 and is in minty condition. What's cool is I can run it with a variety of cabooses and road names and still be prototypical. Check it out: