Lionel Corp. Vs. Lionel, LLC

[IDM1991]

The most recent catalogues have used the "Lionel Electric Trains" title, but the contact information is still listed as "Lionel, LLC."  I doubt the name has changed.  A good part of Lionel's business now involves licencing the name.  I don't think Lionel should be reduced to just that, a brand name.  Moreover, I have never really liked the idea of MTH and Williams reproducing prewar and postwar Lionel products.  Isn't Lionel capable of reproducing its own design? 

I find it rather odd that Lionel has its trains and accessories produced in the same factory that crafts trains for other brands (what would Mr. Cowen think if his trains were produced in the same plant that put out Marx trains?).  I imagine Lionel still concieves of their products in North America and advertises out of North America.  I have a battered 1963 consumer catalogue that lists Lionel as being the "Lionel Toy Corporation," a bit earlier than what you suggested.  Of course, the catalogues produced now are more like thick novels that take a while to read in detail. 

The question is, I would guess, one of history or philosophy as opposed to business and marketing.  It is possible to distinguish between the Lionel Corp. of old and what exists today.  But I don't think there should be such a sharp division between the two.  CTT makes mention of the "original Lionel Corp.'s successor firms," but I don't think that distinction answers our question either.

 

[laz 57]

No matter which way one looks at it, it's still Lionel?

laz57

[DMUinCT]

You can have fun with this one!!!    One long connected product line. The name and tooling passed along each time.

Please correct or add information

ORIGINAL LIONEL   Founded and operated by J. Lionel Cowen until the 1950s, then with his son Lawrence until they both sold their stock in 1959 and retired.  J. Lionel Cowen died in 1965.

Lionel Manufacturing Co. -- 1901 - 1918

The Lionel Corporation  --  1918 - 1966   /Bankrupt/Receivership 1934 - 1935

Lionel Toy Corporation -- 1966 - 1969   /Receivership

OTHER OWNERSHIP 

Lionel Toy Division of MPC -- 1969 - 1972, General Mills owner 

Lionel of Fundimensions -- 1972-1985, a Division of General Mills (MPC) owner

Lionel Trains Inc. --  1985 - 1995, Richard Kughn, owner

Lionel L.L.C. -- 1995 - 2009, Wellspring Investments, owner / Bankruptcy 2004 (MTH law suit)

Lionel Electric Trains ---  2009 -

             

 

[dbaker48]

 I have found Wikpedia to be a fine, CONVIENT source of information, but not necessarily always right.  It is afterall a compliation of opinions etc..  Regarding Lionel, I too would certain think the Chain of continuity to be intact.  Could you image IF Lionel would have been able to survive as orginally defined, what it would be like today?  Hardly competitive, for sure!  I don't really see any issue.

[cnw1995]

I'll take a stab at this even not quite getting your point - no one's mourning a 'paper' loss. I wouldn't believe much of what you see in Wikipedia for the obvious reason that you can't tell the motivation behind the poster, let alone their identity or authority. Lionel has existed in a corporate sense in several forms since the heyday you noted. The current entity still oversees the design, manufacture and sales of O gauge trains... It's got a heck of a brand still among certain demographics ... and you can trace its legacy back to JLC. What's not to like?

[IDM1991]

What is the great mystery behind this affair?  The Lionel Corporation as it existed between 1900 and 1994 is seen by many to be a polar opposite of "Lionel, LLC" as it has existed since 1995.  The Wikipedia article regarding Lionel, LLC cynically puts it like this:

"Although Lionel, LLC now owns all of the trademarks and most of the product rights associated with Lionel Corporation, the original producer of Lionel trains founded in 1900, there is no direct connection between the two companies."

Well, would not the name, the product rights, the trademarks, the products, etc. be that "bond of connection?"  This is akin to suggesting that "although my family is biologically related to by great-great-grandparents' family, there is no direct connection between the two families."

Ron Hollander, in his excellent book about Lionel, All Aboard! mildly comments on this in the closing chapters of the 2000 edition of his book:

"Young formed a group with Wellspring Associates, an investment firm headed by the late Martin Davis (who was involved with Gulf & Western and Paramount Communications) and investor Greg Feldman.  On September 29th, 1995, Kughn sold them all of Lionel, including the train name and the tooling.  Kughn kept what he describes as a "small interest" in the company and was made chairman emeritus.  Kughn and Young also sold LionTech to the group.  At the same time, Wellspring bought the remaining rights to the Lionel Corporation name." 

Would this, perhaps, be the "bond of connection?"  Some CTT writers speak of the "original Lionel Corp."  What is Lionel, LLC then?  A scam?  A fake?  A reproduction that collectors should watch out for?  Clearly, a transaction was made some time ago that bound together once again the Lionel name and corporate history with the Lionel product, which was unfortunately divorced from the former in 1969.  Would it be more accurate, then, to say that "Lionel" as manufacturer has existed since Sept. 5th, 1900 and a mere corporate organization has existed since Sept. 29th, 1995?

Unlike Atlas O and MTH, Lionel has a highly detailed pedigree that involves everything from an upper floor New York City office to a massive postwar showroom to a cereal corporation office to a factory in Michigan to a factory in Asia.  It still remains "Lionel," the maker of quality electric trains and accessories.  To dwell upon the differences between the Lionel Manufacturing Company, the Lionel Corporation, Model Products Corporation, Fundimensions, Kenner-Parker, Lionel Trains Incorporated, and Lionel, LLC risks marginalizing the manufacturer itself.  While such distinctions may be of importance to collectors and business students, they are surely of little importance to operators and common hobbyists.  I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp.

Any thoughts?