What is the great mystery behind this affair? The Lionel Corporation as it existed between 1900 and 1994 is seen by many to be a polar opposite of "Lionel, LLC" as it has existed since 1995. The Wikipedia article regarding Lionel, LLC cynically puts it like this:
"Although Lionel, LLC now owns all of the trademarks and most of the product rights associated with Lionel Corporation, the original producer of Lionel trains founded in 1900, there is no direct connection between the two companies."
Well, would not the name, the product rights, the trademarks, the products, etc. be that "bond of connection?" This is akin to suggesting that "although my family is biologically related to by great-great-grandparents' family, there is no direct connection between the two families."
Ron Hollander, in his excellent book about Lionel, All Aboard! mildly comments on this in the closing chapters of the 2000 edition of his book:
"Young formed a group with Wellspring Associates, an investment firm headed by the late Martin Davis (who was involved with Gulf & Western and Paramount Communications) and investor Greg Feldman. On September 29th, 1995, Kughn sold them all of Lionel, including the train name and the tooling. Kughn kept what he describes as a "small interest" in the company and was made chairman emeritus. Kughn and Young also sold LionTech to the group. At the same time, Wellspring bought the remaining rights to the Lionel Corporation name."
Would this, perhaps, be the "bond of connection?" Some CTT writers speak of the "original Lionel Corp." What is Lionel, LLC then? A scam? A fake? A reproduction that collectors should watch out for? Clearly, a transaction was made some time ago that bound together once again the Lionel name and corporate history with the Lionel product, which was unfortunately divorced from the former in 1969. Would it be more accurate, then, to say that "Lionel" as manufacturer has existed since Sept. 5th, 1900 and a mere corporate organization has existed since Sept. 29th, 1995?
Unlike Atlas O and MTH, Lionel has a highly detailed pedigree that involves everything from an upper floor New York City office to a massive postwar showroom to a cereal corporation office to a factory in Michigan to a factory in Asia. It still remains "Lionel," the maker of quality electric trains and accessories. To dwell upon the differences between the Lionel Manufacturing Company, the Lionel Corporation, Model Products Corporation, Fundimensions, Kenner-Parker, Lionel Trains Incorporated, and Lionel, LLC risks marginalizing the manufacturer itself. While such distinctions may be of importance to collectors and business students, they are surely of little importance to operators and common hobbyists. I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp.
Any thoughts?
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I have found Wikpedia to be a fine, CONVIENT source of information, but not necessarily always right. It is afterall a compliation of opinions etc.. Regarding Lionel, I too would certain think the Chain of continuity to be intact. Could you image IF Lionel would have been able to survive as orginally defined, what it would be like today? Hardly competitive, for sure! I don't really see any issue.
Don
You can have fun with this one!!! One long connected product line. The name and tooling passed along each time.
Please correct or add information
ORIGINAL LIONEL Founded and operated by J. Lionel Cowen until the 1950s, then with his son Lawrence until they both sold their stock in 1959 and retired. J. Lionel Cowen died in 1965.
Lionel Manufacturing Co. -- 1901 - 1918
The Lionel Corporation -- 1918 - 1966 /Bankrupt/Receivership 1934 - 1935
Lionel Toy Corporation -- 1966 - 1969 /Receivership
OTHER OWNERSHIP
Lionel Toy Division of MPC -- 1969 - 1972, General Mills owner
Lionel of Fundimensions -- 1972-1985, a Division of General Mills (MPC) owner
Lionel Trains Inc. -- 1985 - 1995, Richard Kughn, owner
Lionel L.L.C. -- 1995 - 2009, Wellspring Investments, owner / Bankruptcy 2004 (MTH law suit)
Lionel Electric Trains --- 2009 -
Don U. TCA 73-5735
No matter which way one looks at it, it's still Lionel?
laz57
The most recent catalogues have used the "Lionel Electric Trains" title, but the contact information is still listed as "Lionel, LLC." I doubt the name has changed. A good part of Lionel's business now involves licencing the name. I don't think Lionel should be reduced to just that, a brand name. Moreover, I have never really liked the idea of MTH and Williams reproducing prewar and postwar Lionel products. Isn't Lionel capable of reproducing its own design?
I find it rather odd that Lionel has its trains and accessories produced in the same factory that crafts trains for other brands (what would Mr. Cowen think if his trains were produced in the same plant that put out Marx trains?). I imagine Lionel still concieves of their products in North America and advertises out of North America. I have a battered 1963 consumer catalogue that lists Lionel as being the "Lionel Toy Corporation," a bit earlier than what you suggested. Of course, the catalogues produced now are more like thick novels that take a while to read in detail.
The question is, I would guess, one of history or philosophy as opposed to business and marketing. It is possible to distinguish between the Lionel Corp. of old and what exists today. But I don't think there should be such a sharp division between the two. CTT makes mention of the "original Lionel Corp.'s successor firms," but I don't think that distinction answers our question either.
To me, Lionel LLC is a totally different company than the Lionel Corporation, with the name being the only thing the two have in common. IMHO, everything that Lionel once stood for is gone. Lionel LLC's current products seem to lack the character that makes the products produced by the original Lionel Corporation special. Good thread though.
What do you mean by character?
The overall quality of the product, or the sociological ideal perpetuated by the Lionel Corp. during the 1950's? True, Lionel LLC does not have that image of "father and son" mystique that was idealized half a century ago. Still, as one who has grown up with both postwar and modern Lionel trains, I would reasonably argue that Lionel LLC products still have "character" to them. A locomotive decorated for the "Lionel Lines" carries far more weight (no pun intended) than a similar locomotive decorated for "MTH Lines" or "Weaver Lines." Lionel LLC has that historical and cultural cachet you just can't find in many other manufacturers.
The late Lenny Dean (1926-2007) seemed to be the incarnation of "Lionel" regardless if the men at the top were Mr. Cowen, Mr. Kughn, or Mr. Maddox. Although I am a Canadian citizen, I wrote an essay about Lionel for my former Gr. 11 American History class; the thesis running as follows:
"Lionel, the most influential of the manufacturers modeling North American railway heritage for such enthusiasts, has for almost one hundred and eight years mirrored the constant evolution of American taste in the fields of industry, design, and American society. Since the company’s inception, America has witnessed the importance of mass manufacturing, streamlining, animation, the space age, corporate downfall, advertising, electronic emphasis, competition, and even woman’s rights. Lionel, throughout its many years in business has echoed these developments and reproduced them through their wide variety of products."
Yes, that sociological ideal is a big part of the character to me. That, combined with the look, feel, smell, and general operation make Lionel Corp products stand out to me. I've got a substantial amount of Lionel LLC products, and they just don't appeal to me the way that the Lionel Corp stuff does.
Thank goodness the current management has put emphasis on this great heritage. Conventional Classics, Prewar Celebration and Postwar Celebration series products, return of some classic accessories, tried-and-true tubular track, orange and blue boxes, and an office in NYC all come to mind. I suppose this "direct connection" issue is historical in that Lionel has a unique cultural and product heritage that no other manufacturer has; sociological in that Lionel is a globally-recognized name; and metaphorical in that Lionel has come to symbolize a quality "investment in happiness."
I must admit that the E-Unit buzz of the 675 Steam Locomotive (1947-48) and the 622 Diesel Switcher (1949-50) that we put around the Christmas tree have a sense of nostalgia. Still, the sight of a Lionel product from the past decade or so operating at a train show is something I always enjoy.
Fantasy Product: A Lionel Electric Express (c. 1901) featuring LEGACY, CrewTalk, Magne-Traction, directional lighting, ElectroCouplers, etc, etc, etc. Imagine what that would be like!
You can have directional lighting on any universal-motor 3-position-e-unit locomotive just by moving the headlight wire to one of the motor brushes.
Bob Nelson
IDM1991What is the great mystery behind this affair? The Lionel Corporation as it existed between 1900 and 1994 is seen by many to be a polar opposite of "Lionel, LLC" as it has existed since 1995...
You are confusing a conglomerate Corporation that once made trains until 1970(Lionel - dissolved in 1994) with several other parties - licensees, manufacturers, rights holders, & importers.
General Mills, Fundimensions, & Kenner Parker did not own Lionel. They were licensees & manufacturers. LTI under Kughn was also a licensee & manufacturer, but part of the deal with the Davis group involved Kughn being able to actually acquire the outright rights to all Lionel's intellectual property involving trains - Ives & American Flyer(& probably LionTech too) included.
At this point in 1995-1996, Lionel as a model train company was as whole as it had been since 1969, and flourishing, with USA made product, offices close to the plant, and a hands-on owner. All ties with Lionel, the just dissolved(then a toy store chain) company, had been severed, after they had actually been out of the train business for over 25 years. LTI was now a licensor(they did a lot of this in the LTI era), manufacturer, owner, & marketer of the trains called Lionel, but had no ties to the Lionel Corporation of the last 95 years.
LLC gradually became just a licensor, owner, & marketer of the trains called Lionel(& American Flyer) when they stopped production of the equipment ~2000 & contracted production overseas. The loss of "Ives" to MTH is a whole other story.
Have you ever seen Kodak batteries? Kodak stopped making batteries in 1991 but they are still made under license. Kodak also got out of magnetic media in 1991, but floppy disks & video tapes continue to be made under license. The difference w/ Kodak is that they survived their "spin-offs" where Lionel did not.
IDM1991...The Wikipedia article regarding Lionel, LLC cynically puts it like this:
You should know better than to rely on Wiki!
Rob
I don't understand much of this thread at all, but want to comment on newer Lionel Trains versus those made by the Lionel Corp. I have always liked my 1122 switches with its NY. NY, and have a warm spot for Postwar trains. Heavens know I have enough of them, and still seek certain ones as I encounter them. Years ago, I used to think I could work for Lionel, and visioned what it might have been like to work at Lionel, and with some of the greats. There was even a time I thought I would like to bring the line to our facility and fill in some of our down time. My last new Lionel till the early 1990s was my Spirit of 76, which I felt was every much a part of Lionel even though it was made by MPC. After my son was born and we built a new house, I dug out my trains after roughly a 17 year lapse in actively working on a layout or doing much with them. I am thankful my father asked me what I wanted to do with the trains as I went off to college. One of the first new Lionel Steam locomotives I purchased was the C&NW 4-6-2 of I believe 1993. Even though the catalogs didn't do much for me like the 1957 or 58, this engine is every bit as much Lionel and my 2035, or 2046, both of which I like and often run. I later purchased a 726 Century Engine, now this is Lionel, and it was made by LLC. I like it more than the Postwar, because of the electonics and sound. I bought my daugter a trainset around the same time. The engine is a baby Hudson made overseas, but I love how it runs, and the decoration. This too I consider Lionel. What I have tried to do over the time is purchase trains that I like, fit in with my collection, and will be happy with down the road. Today, I saw a copy of the 2009 volume II in print for the first time. When you hit those pages for the 50s, it evokes emotion, the 646 looks just like the on from the 50s. Yes it is probably the same art work, blown up, cropped or other.
Why I had been thinking of this for a couple of days, I don't know, but for a few days have been thinking about my tastes and what is important to me. Someone here mentioned Williams Trains Repos. Well I wouldn't buy an MTH for whatever reason, but I like the Lionel Cousins or what ever you might call them. The baby passenger cars in certain road names appeal to me, and I believe are of better quailty than the baby Lionels made today. I even like the name Luxury Lines, and it has a place. I have some Lionel postwar engines that don't do much for me. My 2025 from 1947, excellent shape, every bit Lonel, and I don't run it. My 2055, sees sporadic track time. O-27 -042 switches to me are Lionel, but I wouldn't ever buy the new 027 switch. My kids 40W transformers we use, along with 1033s, LWs and ZW transformers and command control.
I am loosing my train of thought right now, but will end with I like the Lionel Trains I like regardless of when they were built, and proper Lionel name. They are all related. Thanks for hearing me and enjoy your trains.
I wouldn't depend on Wikipedia to tell me when the War of 1812 was fought.
"Today, I saw a copy of the 2009 volume II in print for the first time. When you hit those pages for the 50s, it evokes emotion..."
Exactly. Lionel does evoke emotion. To fuss over the passing away of the "original" Lionel Corp. and question the relation between it and the Lionel of 2009 is distracting and takes all the fun out of our hobby by reducing Lionel to a legalistic letter. I suggested earlier that Lionel, whether it has "Corp.," "MPC," or "LLC" behind its name is, overall, one manufacturer. The various organizational titles bear witness to the fact that several corporate stewards have brought Lionel from 1900 through to the present day. If this theory is correct, the Lionel Corp. of 1900-1969 is just as much a steward as is "Lionel, LLC."
"... I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp."
That's because negative posts are generally scorned on this forum.
11th Street "... I don't hear operators mourning the passing of the "original" Lionel Corp."That's because negative posts are generally scorned on this forum.
Bob Keller
Sorry if I started something.... I suppose my original question had less to do with brand and more to do with the seemingly fuzzy relationship between the Lionel of storied history and the Lionel we know of today. To me, Lionel LLC must have some direct connection, no matter how tumultuous, to the "original" Lionel Corp. dating back to the days of Cowen, if it is to have any credibility.
Lionel as produced and licenced by Fundimensions and LTI would, I guess, have less of a "full" relationship to Lionel LLC, as the latter apparently actually owns the intellectual property of the Lionel Corp., which is much different than doing a mere licence. But I don't think it is necessary to place the two into two seperate camps and speak of them as being drastically different or unrelated. At least General Mills and Mr. Kughn managed to keep the Lionel reality afloat during the hiatus years until 1995 or so, when the name, intellectual property, etc. were legally reunified with the actual product.
To those new to the hobby though, I think it would be beneficial if we spoke of Lionel as being like a family tree; all are interrelated somehow, even if not "directly." No one wants to be told that their 2009 outfit produced by Lionel, LLC is not "real" Lionel because "real" Lionel apparently hit the dust forty years back.
I look at it this way. A Fender Stratocaster made in Mexico, Japan or China is not the same as one made in Fullerton California with American woods and labor.
I feel the same way about the Chinese made trains.
IDM1991 To those new to the hobby though, I think it would be beneficial if we spoke of Lionel as being like a family tree; all are interrelated somehow, even if not "directly." No one wants to be told that their 2009 outfit produced by Lionel, LLC is not "real" Lionel because "real" Lionel apparently hit the dust forty years back.
Sorry, but some of us feel that way. I am not going to start making negative comments about modern era trains, but while a reissued (or reproduced, which ever word you prefer) Lionel Corp piece might be very nice in it's own right, it is not the same as the original Lionel Corp piece.
Sorry, but some of us feel that way. I am not going to start making negative comments about modern era trains, but while a reissued (or reproduced, which ever word you prefer) Lionel Corp piece might be very nice in it's own right, it is not the same as the original Lionel Corp piece
...Maybe it not the same as an original Lionel Corp piece, but I don't think we can discount it is a Lionel, and connected in some fashion. At the time Mr. Cowen sold his stock, he was getting up in age, and as an engineer/businessman or what had had his time with the company he started. When the Lionel Train Line went to MPC, LTI, LLC, it is a continuation of something that had started a long time ago, and was continuing. A new group of engineers, business people, and the quality reflected what they could bring to the Line. MPC's early catalogs reflected on the history of Lionel, and so did some of the others. It wasn't just Brand, but a Product Line, and that being Toy Trains. As I said in an earlier Post, I try to add things that enhance my collection, and it spans the different times.
What I like to think about as an engineer is the innovation. Postwar was a step up from Prewar; electro couplers, etc. MPC added color and decoration, but I think lost focus with Disney, and other things that distracted from railroading. The advent of Command Control, I think Mr. Cowen would have liked. Yes the Lionel Corp. was a different business entity than the others, but for myself who likes railroading, and trains, I see my Lionel as one. If we didn't have people carrying on the Lionel name, there wouldn't be the opportunity for new enthusiast without strictly living in the past, and there wouldn't be opportunity for new things to come. I like my trains new and old, and only want a quality piece when I purchase something new. I also try to live a Lionel spirit, in things I might invent, or repairs I make or how I build my railroad. My dad is gone now, but the spirit in our family continues with my son and daughter. I and several of my cousins still continue our trains, and it is just a hobby.
Absolutely.
The high school I attended was rebuilt architecturally in the 1960's and 1970's, but the school itself dates to 1889. Like Lionel, it has gone through a minor name change as well. BUT: it still provides an education and prepares students for tommorow. Lionel has gone through business changes, additions, and corporate rebuilds, BUT: it remains the electric train manufacturer dating back almost 110 years.
It is interesting to point out that, despite the licencing and acquisition tumult of the 70's, 80's, and 90's, the trains themselves have been continuously produced since 1901 or so. It is clear from Lionel's history that Lionel as a manufacturer of toy trains has always existed despite the different business entities among the Lionel Corp, Fundimensions, LTI, and LLC eras. Today's trains don't just carry the Lionel brand name, they are Lionel trains in the fullest sense of the word because there is only one Lionel company now, not two (i.e. Lionel Corp. and MPC) as there were thirty years ago. This would, I think, be due in part to the 1995 reunification. As I see it, Lionel LLC is like a piece of rolling stock that is coupled to the car directly in front. The latter may be different than the former, but they nevertheless make up one train. (Maybe I'm becoming too philosophical here).
Lionel LLC, LTI, and MPC can be distinguished from the Lionel Corp. but never divided or seperated from it. As we've seen from this thread, Lionel is more than a mere brand or corporate concept. It's a psychological reality.
- Ian D. McKechnie
Fifty five years ago fathers would sneak a train set into the home, set it up on Christmas Eve and on Christmas Day the train set/accessories worked as expected. If a year or two later something needed repair his sons & an adult would take it to the Lionel 26th St. showroom/repair station and JLC’s own crew would fix it, with perhaps a charge of no more than cost of the part, if that. Without asking for a receipt or when/where it was purchased. And all while you waited, and with a smile. And now ... ? Kader/SandaKan-Bachman/Williams offers a lifetime, return to factory warranty. And the others?If hobby magazine publishers want to begin addressing the myriad of QC, design, warranty, and repair station problems that are plaguing this hobby then they can very quietly start printing the warranty policy of each product that is reviewed in each issue. Until warranties become substantial and authorized repair stations become fully stocked and ubiquitous, to argue that today’s Guggenheim Trains bears anything more than a topical resemblance to JLC’s Lionel is patently absurd and a disservice to those of us that are on the consumer side of this hobby. TCA: 95-xxxxxContinuous subscriber to CTT & OGR since 1994First Lionel set/KW transformer: 1953.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
alankMaybe it not the same as an original Lionel Corp piece, but I don't think we can discount it is a Lionel, and connected in some fashion
Let's face it, nobody is going to change another's opinion with a posting on a chat board. I see differences in "Lionel" product with each major change in ownership. In my book, only stuff made by the original Lionel Corporation gets the name Lionel withoout quotes. I like some modern era stuff, made by MPC and LTI. I even own some LLC stuff. But I also own some Kline, and MTH. The big turn-off for me with later stuff is the electronics, and the lack of serviceability.
To each his own.
The big turn-off for me with later stuff is the electronics, and the lack of serviceability.
Now this is a different issue. I too worry about the electronics on some of my engines, and these things aren't cheap. I like to run my Century Berk for the sound and the use of Command Control. I have others that I run this way too, where it wouldn't bother me too much if they were the old E-Unit or what. I run Postwar and such with the Powermaster, and don't have to be tethered or glued to a tranformer. With Powermaster I have a big toggle switch, that with a flip lets me go back to using the transformer. Nothing like having your hand on the throttle. Serviceability I haven't had any issues on this yet, but wonder about my gaurentee for my culvert loader....that was supposed to be for life to the original owner which I am. There is something to be said about the old company about reliabilty and simplicity, but we are in 2009. All I want is good trains, and a reliable company behind them. I haven't bought any MTH, just because I don't want too(not saying anything negative about MTH, just personal choice in what I want). I too like Kline, and also like Williams....that is enough for me..Mr. Cowen gave credibility to his company, and a long time after, if these new guys want their trains to be a success, his would be a good model to follow.
alankServiceability I haven't had any issues on this yet, but wonder about my gaurentee for my culvert loader....that was supposed to be for life to the original owner which I am.
Does Lionel still have parts for your coal loader? On another board, one poor fellow is trying to find a screw for his Acela. He says Lionel doesn't have any. Did that piece come with a lifetime warantee too?Older Lionel trains were simplier. Yes, there were less detailed, but many parts were used commonly in multiple pieces, so Lionel could keep them available. It wasn't uncommon to be able to obtain parts for items that were thirty years old or more in the 1970's. LLC certainly does stock a lot of parts, but due to specialization, their application is narrow.
Well in effect the "old" Lionel quit making trains c. 1969. After that for a couple of decades, Lionel trains were basically a division of MPC/Fundimensions. Lionel LLC was then "spun off" from MPC et al and was really a new separate company using the old name and designs.
It's a little like the real railroads, like say Wisconsin Central. It was a separate railroad company early in the 20th century. Later it became affiliated with the Minneapolis, St.Paul and Sault Ste. Marie RR, and eventually was completely folded into the reconfigured "Soo Line". Later a new Wisconsin Central was formed, using mostly former WC trackage bought from the Soo. But it really wasn't the same company, even though it used the same colors and herald etc. that the one 100 years before had used.
cwburfle It wasn't uncommon to be able to obtain parts for items that were thirty years old or more in the 1970's.
Lenny Dean published a comprehensive parts list in 1970 with many Standard Gauge parts still in stock at Hillside.
ADCX RobLenny Dean published a comprehensive parts list in 1970 with many Standard Gauge parts still in stock at Hillside
The 1970's edition is fairly well known, and fairly easy to obtain. A couple of the more interesting parts available were the 671S and 726S smoke unit conversion kits. Those dated back to 1947.
There is also a 1968 verison in the same format. The Lionel Corp released parts lists periodically over the years.MPC continued the practice of releasing parts lists. Postwar parts were available in those parts lists too.
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