wallyworld Well, time will tell. My point is that the customer floats the boat and the jury is still out. There is a lead time \ lag time to this development where the consumer faced with a choice has more than one option as far as product. If I were MTH I would be looking at countering this business plan of Lionel's if economically feasible or practice by making parts readily available, increasing warranties and making quality #1 and broadcast this loudly. I think theres a hole in Lionel's armor that could be perhaps exploited and might be. The consumer , not Lionel will determine all this I suppose.
Well, time will tell. My point is that the customer floats the boat and the jury is still out. There is a lead time \ lag time to this development where the consumer faced with a choice has more than one option as far as product. If I were MTH I would be looking at countering this business plan of Lionel's if economically feasible or practice by making parts readily available, increasing warranties and making quality #1 and broadcast this loudly. I think theres a hole in Lionel's armor that could be perhaps exploited and might be. The consumer , not Lionel will determine all this I suppose.
Yep...and that makes me even more uneasy. Just read some of the posts in this thread. There are plenty of people who think Lionel can do no wrong and have blind loyalty to the company name. They will buy Lionel just because of the name and it's histroy. Only the history IS history and the current Lionel is not like it was in postwar golden years.You are reading my mind with the MTH comment. Even Bachman-Williams can put a big hurt on Lionel by coming out with a better warranty. They already have a pretty good reputation for reliable products at a lower price.
Virginian Railroad
Hi Deputy,
I know that I praised Lionel, in the past, but that was the past!!!!
Reading some posts of HIGH priced Lionel engines not functioning proper, the beloved economy, bills going higher and no increase in income, has caused me to slow, or stop, buying anymore goodies.
I know, I am Not ALONE in this boat!
Then again, these businesses want good reputations, but somehow don't offer the Guarantees, Warrantees and for the most part, near perfect goodies, right out of the box, as they did years ago!
Now a days??????!!!!!!!!!
If, I can't check it out, then I go without!!!!!
Ralph
Deputy wallyworld: Well, time will tell. My point is that the customer floats the boat and the jury is still out. There is a lead time \ lag time to this development where the consumer faced with a choice has more than one option as far as product. If I were MTH I would be looking at countering this business plan of Lionel's if economically feasible or practice by making parts readily available, increasing warranties and making quality #1 and broadcast this loudly. I think theres a hole in Lionel's armor that could be perhaps exploited and might be. The consumer , not Lionel will determine all this I suppose. Yep...and that makes me even more uneasy. Just read some of the posts in this thread. There are plenty of people who think Lionel can do no wrong and have blind loyalty to the company name. They will buy Lionel just because of the name and it's histroy. Only the history IS history and the current Lionel is not like it was in postwar golden years.You are reading my mind with the MTH comment. Even Bachman-Williams can put a big hurt on Lionel by coming out with a better warranty. They already have a pretty good reputation for reliable products at a lower price.
wallyworld: Well, time will tell. My point is that the customer floats the boat and the jury is still out. There is a lead time \ lag time to this development where the consumer faced with a choice has more than one option as far as product. If I were MTH I would be looking at countering this business plan of Lionel's if economically feasible or practice by making parts readily available, increasing warranties and making quality #1 and broadcast this loudly. I think theres a hole in Lionel's armor that could be perhaps exploited and might be. The consumer , not Lionel will determine all this I suppose.
I have a Williams engine and it seems pretty bullet proof to date, and I know as a company they are huge..comparatively. I think they ( Bachman) are just getting warmed up.. so it will be interesting to see A. How far brand loyalty goes.in the long run as far as Lionel B. If there is any reaction to this from competitors. None of this seems like a game winner. I could be wrong, but my gut says it's downhill from here, not that I would wish that on any toy maker and in particular Lionel or whatever the name happens to morphed into.as a non manufacturer or whatever..
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
wallyworld,
I have one Williams by Williams full 1:48 scale engine and you are correct, it is pretty much bullet proof and similar to the Post War Lionel engines.
The funny part, most Lionel is designed in the U.S. but built by Sanda Kan in China. Sanda Kan is owned by a holding company that also owns Bachmann and Williams by Bachmann.
Get this, Sanda Kan makes the "G Gauge Trains" for Aristo-Craft. Aristo-Craft has a 5 Year Warranty on its products. Now I'm confused, a "G Gauge" locomotive from Aristo-Craft costs about the same as a Lionel "O Gauge" model ($400 to $700) ???
Don U. TCA 73-5735
wallyworld The trend has appeared at least to me right or wrong, that repair efficiency was stepped up while internal quality control went down.Now the door is closing more on warranty ( read liable no cost repairs) Is all this evidence that the brand's reputation as reliable and a good investment about to nose dive? . . . Closing the door on warranties is undoubtedly a cost saving tactic while the durability and sustainability of the brand goes down.
The trend has appeared at least to me right or wrong, that repair efficiency was stepped up while internal quality control went down.Now the door is closing more on warranty ( read liable no cost repairs) Is all this evidence that the brand's reputation as reliable and a good investment about to nose dive? . . . Closing the door on warranties is undoubtedly a cost saving tactic while the durability and sustainability of the brand goes down.
Although that saves cost, I suspect that the shift in emphasis is really about Lionel acknowledging the reality of the situation--that Lionel has no real control over what goes inside of a Lionel train. If the supply chain was shorter, then maybe Lionel could oversee the factory to the extent that they could all but eliminate DOAs and other problems. But the supply chain reaches clear across the Pacific and deep into China, and the reality is that this kind of quality control is not practical. So Lionel streamlines the repair process, making good on manufacturing failures as quickly as possible, since they can't seem to stop the failures themselves. In other words, Lionel has made its bed, and is sleeping in it the best way it knows how.
Not honoring warranties on old items is just another way of sleeping in the same bed. If Lionel had close control over its manufacturing, it might be confident enough in the quality of its product to warrant even new old stock items, knowing that there would be very few failures that would need fixing. But the fact is, Lionel cannot control that, and doesn't want to get stuck holding the bag for their supplier. And who knows? That supplier may not even be in a relationship with Lionel anymore, or may even be out of business. On some of these items, Lionel itself probably has trouble getting parts. Why would you warrant something when you a) don't know how many years/decades it will sit until the box is finally opened and the defect is discovered, b) probably can't get parts to fix it anymore when that does happen? The sensible thing is to cut off the warranty. People say "That's bad customer service!" And it is. But, given Lionel's manufacturing situation, it's also their only realistic option.
I agree with those who have said that, going forward, a high-end loco that is more than a few years old will automatically be worth about $200 less than it "should" be, because of the likelihood that the electronics will need to be replaced not long after the sale. Also, little value will be attached by collectors to original electronics; it will be assumed that most locos have them changed out sooner or later. At some point Lionel and MTH patents will expire, and 3rd party locomotive electronics manufacturers will do a brisk business.
Train-O Hi Deputy, I know that I praised Lionel, in the past, but that was the past!!!! Reading some posts of HIGH priced Lionel engines not functioning proper, the beloved economy, bills going higher and no increase in income, has caused me to slow, or stop, buying anymore goodies. I know, I am Not ALONE in this boat! Then again, these businesses want good reputations, but somehow don't offer the Guarantees, Warrantees and for the most part, near perfect goodies, right out of the box, as they did years ago! Now a days??????!!!!!!!!! If, I can't check it out, then I go without!!!!! Ralph
But, to be honest, I would rather buy a Williams loco and can live without all the doodads that the new crop of Lionel locos has. Williams has a D&RGW loco with the same paint as the SD70ACe only it is an SD90. It even has the Heritage paint job on it and the number 1989. Unfortunately, it's a fantasy loco. UP only painted Heritage paint on the SD70ACe. So while it's "pretty", it's out of the question for me.
Deputy,
I should say that some of the high price goodies Lionel and others make are fine, but to pay high prices and the item does not function properly is a pain, especially if I want it and buy it without first checking.
Now, if I can afford it, I'll check it out first, but years ago most items worked right out of the box.
Take care,
well i for one have learned my lesson and i am getting out of the hobby all together! what is supposed to be the worlds greatest hobby has turned into the worlds biggest pain in the you no what and personally i am just tired of it . no more trains for me when i get rid of these i will never buy anymore.
you sure dug far enough back to dig this post out to make your claim. and as few as post you have seems to me you had a chip about the hobby from the word go. Yes you got some bad deals first the one you got from ebay i would of gone thru ebay and returned it yes you would of been out your return shipping but that would of been it, Ebay backs buyers. He quoted new in box and obvious it wasn't. Look at it this way you went and bought a $15000 used car 3 months 3000 mile warranty 4 months down the road transmission goes out you going to stop buying cars. I don't think so.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
The Ogauge hobby has its upside and its downside. Yep, when a loco is DOA it is a big time downer but in the grand scheme of things it is just an hiccup during your lifespan. Work with the seller or manufacture to resolve the issue. I have a number of locos with the electronic innards that after years of operating something major or minor has gone kaput. Its just part of the electronic age.
Bill T.
DMUinCT Get this, Sanda Kan makes the "G Gauge Trains" for Aristo-Craft. Aristo-Craft has a 5 Year Warranty on its products. Now I'm confused, a "G Gauge" locomotive from Aristo-Craft costs about the same as a Lionel "O Gauge" model ($400 to $700) ???
I was just thinking about this exact curiousity this morning while reading a review of a Lionel GP-7 that cost $399 and was recently reviewed in CTT. The street price for a new G scale USA trains GP7 is about $250. Why is the Lionel so much more when the engine is smaller in scale, toy-like, has less detail, and there are other Geep manufacturers about? Either people are paying for the Lionel name or the electronic command control and sound effects (not present on the G scale engine) are adding the $150-$200.
Modeling the D&H in 1984: http://dandhcoloniemain.blogspot.com/
Benjamin Maggi DMUinCT: Get this, Sanda Kan makes the "G Gauge Trains" for Aristo-Craft. Aristo-Craft has a 5 Year Warranty on its products. Now I'm confused, a "G Gauge" locomotive from Aristo-Craft costs about the same as a Lionel "O Gauge" model ($400 to $700) ??? I was just thinking about this exact curiousity this morning while reading a review of a Lionel GP-7 that cost $399 and was recently reviewed in CTT. The street price for a new G scale USA trains GP7 is about $250. Why is the Lionel so much more when the engine is smaller in scale, toy-like, has less detail, and there are other Geep manufacturers about? Either people are paying for the Lionel name or the electronic command control and sound effects (not present on the G scale engine) are adding the $150-$200.
DMUinCT: Get this, Sanda Kan makes the "G Gauge Trains" for Aristo-Craft. Aristo-Craft has a 5 Year Warranty on its products. Now I'm confused, a "G Gauge" locomotive from Aristo-Craft costs about the same as a Lionel "O Gauge" model ($400 to $700) ???
Probaby both of the reasons you mentioned.
no i would'nt stop buying cars i would probably pay to fix the fifteen thousand dollar car but why should i have to pay four hundred dollars to fix a *** piece of lionel junk that i paid less than that for in the first place. and you have the right to your opinion but i have been in this hobby for over fifty years and i think i have the right to female dog about it if i want too!
nomthever,
I agree with you.
These cute goodies are fun, but it seems they don't last a year and right away they have to be repaired.
Both the original and repair costs are, lets face it, way over priced!!!!!!
That's my say and I'm sticking by my guns!
Oh that came out so wrong sorry anyway I do see where your coming from and I my self have been collecting/running trains over 50 years. It wasn't till about 4 years ago I got my first TMCC engine. I fought the erge off as was definitely a post war guy but saw a big drop in value of post war ( it has come back up some) and saw how good the value as a whole was for TMCC engines so figured I would try it. I like it but I still worry how long befor I need to replace the electronics I fried a couple of powermasters as one engine needed a new electronic E-unit as it would run in tmcc mode the after about 15 minutes jump into conventional and go like a bat out of you know where and short the track.
You also should take into consideration people that are new to this hobby. When I first started collecting trains I didn't know what came out and when. This is where Lionel still needs to honor the warranty, do you think someone should have to do all kinds of research when they see something they would like to purchase. It's the newbies that will get burned by this not the people who have been in the hobby for a few years already. New is new and the warranty shouldbe honored no matter what, when you buy a new 2010 car in 2011 do they void the warranty because the car is older than one or two years old and even if it was 4 years old I am sure they would honor the warranty. If your local shop is charging the MSRP on an item and it doesn't sell in that first year it's not the fault of the shop owner or the buyer. When that dealer paid Lionel for the item he was also purchasing it with the assumption that the warranty would be valid for one year after the date of purchase and would not have to supplement the original warranty with their own just because the item didn't sell. why should th edealer have to do this new is new if LIonel wants to lower there prices for dealers so there is a bigger profit margin for the dealer then that would be one thing but the profit margins are not that large. As I said before new is new and used is used. I bought a video camera that was about 8 years old but new and it quit functioning within that first year but you know what Canon still covered the cost of the parts and labor they didn't give some lame excuse that the dealer left it on the shelf for too long. If the buyer has the receipt and has registered his product in a timely manner then that warranty should be honored as long as that receipt and warranty registration coincide with each other. The only requirement they should need is proof that you purchased the item on in the designated time period that you had to register the item. If you decide to register the item 3 months or longer and something happens but your recipt is dated three months ago but you registered last week then that's when the warranty should become invalid. It should be treated similar to a factory rebate if you wait too long to register than you are out there in the wind. I don't know how anyone here ever got free shipping on parts for Lionel but I never have.
Can't stop working on the railroad!
RR Addict
This thread and at another forum that will be unnamed by yours truly for obvious reasons seems to affirm dissatisfaction with Lionel for this warranty issue as well as quality issues, cost, and pre-order long lead times.Your post was well considered.
1. Personally, all this affirms the wisdom of backtracking my main interests to prewar \ postwar. I just bought an engine made in 1927, manufactured over 80 years ago. No warranty. Simple mechanism. No quality issues, cheaper than a contemporary version. Runs as good as the day it was made.
2. If I had a horse in this contest, I would take the time to contact Lionel.
3. I don't honestly see Lionel changing it's manufacturing base in China, addressing quality issues, changing it's warranty policy, or it's long lead times on pre-orders.Old age may have made me a cynic.
4. Honestly, if I had the interest in a $1,000 plus locomotive with these issues in mind adding to that the issues of electronic obsolescence, I would really think twice in regard to a future buyer's remorse.
5. All of the above, is a shame for the buyer and those who are Lionel fans. The irony is that these improvements ( iE, bells and whistles, lower production costs etc ) may have had the opposite effect as intended. Short term profit, long term issues.
RRaddict and wallyworld,
I have to say that, I have had both good and bad experiences with Lionel products and hobby shops.Linel technicians were great, though.
The big problem is the guaranty and warranty.
It, seems that the guaranty is a thing of the past, with most manufactures of many kinds of products!
The warranty is another issue, because most manufacturers give the consumer that grace, unfortunately it is for, at the most, one year, especially when the item almost cost the price of a real railcar, or engine!!!!
AND, YES!!!!! If, the product is new, old stock, sitting on the shelf for quite some time, then the warranty SHOULD START at the date of the sale!!!!NOT, THE BULL PULLED BY, you guessed it and I'm saying it..MMMMMFFF!!!!!!!!
Fine'
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