Lionel Warranty

[Boxcar Bill]

Lionel has posted new warranty Info on their web. Everyone should read.

 

Bill

[rlplionel]

Here's the link to the warranty:

Lionel warranty

Robert

http://www.robertstrains.com/

[challenger3980]

 The part of the new warranty policy that REALLY BOTHERS me, is the part about any item more than 3 years old, even if purchased new, never sold before, from an authorized Lionel dealer will not be repaired under warranty.

  There are several dealers that have NEW OLD STOCK, that I would eventually like to add to my collection. Under this policy, even if I buy it from an authorized dealer, I am throwing the dice as to whether or not,it will be fine right out of the box, if there is a problem, I am just out of luck with a $1000.00+ locomotive( I would love to get both JLC UP Challengers, as well as the UP #9000, 4-12-2) Now, I am just as well off, buying a New/Never opened model off ebay, as I would be buying from a Lionel dealer.

  In the past, Lionel's Customer service dept. has been outstanding, the standard for others to reach for in my experience. I have started several Nephews in Lionel, and have called Lionel's CS dept many times for small repair parts, a simple phone call, and 4 days later the parts have been in the mailbox, usually NO CHARGE, a very big part of the reason that I am a Loyal Lionel Customer.

 

Is this the kind of Customer that Lionel wants to risk losing over some warranty issues? I HOPE NOT!! 

 

Doug

[Seayakbill]

Lionel has to make business decisions that best supports their long term strategy. I am sure that Mr Calabrese and his staff discussed the pros and cons of this decision and determined that this was the best approach for their success. There must have been strong evidence that repairs for 3 year or older new product was causing service issues for their repair and parts departments. 

[Anonymous]

A few observations:

1. Lionel recently mandated that ALL service centers wanting to remain 'Authorized Service Centers' send at least one tech to Ohio for training. This would enable the service centers to identify any problem with electronics and get it fixed and hopefully all of this would be done in 2 weeks.
2. I did not see one item in the new Vol 2 catalog that read 'TMCC' they are either Legacy or Conventional.
3. I doubt HIGHLY that the CS dept will stop shipping small replacement parts free of charge, this would not include higher ticket parts like replacement trucks, motors, electronics, etc (bet those can only be obtained by Authorized Service Centers.
4. There has been evidence that the longer an item sits on the shelf without use, especially the newer electronics stuff, does not opperate at optimum levels. (search the board, you can find it all over the place).

I have met and spoken with Mike Reagan one a few occasions, as well as other CS staff, and I can tell you they are ALL top-notch people who take extreme pride in the Lionel name and heritage. Instead of jumping to conclusions and throwing people under the bus, how about we take a step back and let things play out. If you are interested in an item and are unsure about support, why not call the CS line and ask them what the policy would be if you purchase the item and there are issues? I am also fairly certain that if the store you are purchasing from is an Authorized Service Center and they want your return business they will work with you on repairs... One thing I have learned while being a part of this hobby is to ask, if you don't ask you are doing yourself a disservice.

[challenger3980]

Hi Brent,

  I agree, and am not trying to jump to conclusions, but the last two lines spell it out pretty clearly, regarding products more than 3 years from the date of manufacture, ending with:

 "Under no circumstance, will any component or labor be provided free of charge"

  I will still want to add those and other items to my collection, it is just that if they follow that policy, there is no reason to buy those from a Lionel Authorized Dealer, where I would expect them to be covered under warranty, and be willing to pay a higher price than I might find the same item some where else, but that wouldn't be covered by a warranty.

  In these times, in MY opinion the way to keep customers, would be to improve a warranty, not reduce it. Maybe they would still honor the warranty, but I don't feel as comfortable now spending over $1000.00 on a locomotive, and hoping that everything was done right at the factory.

  Lionel CS, has treated me very well in the past, and it was my most recent small parts order (Berkshire jr Bell and bracket, and plastic axle journals/bearings) that they charged me for, it was a reasonable charge, and granted obviously not warranty, but previously, all similar small parts ordes had been NC (those little guys can keep Uncle Doug busy at the repair bench). I am not even saying that I expected that they should replace the parts free, just that it seems that "Things are a Changing" at Lionel.

Doug

[Anonymous]

Doug,
I agree with you, believe me. I know that the fellas at my LTS would work with me on any repair to an item that I purchased from him. If the place you are looking at purchasing from is still a Lionel Service Center then they have a test track you could run the engine(s) on and see them in action prior to purchase.

At my LTS they have a display track in the store, but a MUCH larger setup (sans scenery) in the back. If memory serves me correctly the outter loop on the test track is O-72 and they will run anything you want on it (for demo purposes).

That may be a route you could take? My biggest concern now is that Lionel will no longer manufacture replacement TMCC boards... if you have one die and they are no longer available... well I guess you could strip out the electronics and use it in conventional mode... or you have a nice desk weight!

BTW - Print out the Warranty info and take it with you to the store... if he's had that $1,000 engine sitting on the shelf and won't run it for you and/or knock the price down to $750 I would consider getting it elsewhere. (just my 2 cents)

[brianel027]

Doug and Brent, you both make some convincing points.

Doug, try sending your comments directly to Lionel and I would suggest you include those photos - those speak beyond words.

BTW - Print out the Warranty info and take it with you to the store... if he's had that $1,000 engine sitting on the shelf and won't run it for you and/or knock the price down to $750 I would consider getting it elsewhere. (just my 2 cents)

The only problem with that Brent, is that small dealers already have it hard enough. I'm not criticizing you for the suggestion. But let's use your example: $750 is probably below cost for the loco to that small dealer. Usually more expensive locos are made in limited quantities and allocated to dealers. Once the mail order venues have sold out, then folks have to look for the smaller dealer who might still have one. Of course the customer pays more, but if he's willing, can get that product he couldn't find elsewhere.

Plus, in the past, a defective item would be sent back to Lionel by the customer. Now it seems Lionel wants repairs more repairs made locally. Which is probably not a totally bad idea. I'm with you in your thinking that Lionel put thought into the new policy. But this could once again hurt the smaller dealers who already have a rough time. I'm not defending bad dealers. Just the ones who are really trying to do their best in this competitive environment where sometimes price comes before other considerations... especially on big ticket purchases.

[hrin]

 Gee-wizz Wally.

Even the paper its printed on is made in China.

 

[chuck]

The new warranty language has to do with the express warranty, aka the warranty that spells out what is covered and for how long. The implied warranty is still in force (aka the product works out of the box). The main difference on these is that the implied warranty doesn't cover a specific period of time the way an express warranty would. I'm sort of amazed by people buying something two or three years old and then considering it "new". If a dealer wants to keep something on the shelf that long at full price that's his business. If you choose to buy something that's been sitting around for X years, that's your business. If a dealer choses to sell a three year old loco at full price HE can extend the warranty at his own expense, aka the labor and parts charges fall back to him (or to you) as Lionel won't recomp him for parts or time. A large dealer may well do something like this for a regular customer. A more likely scenario is that the unit would be offered as is and both the seller and buyer are aware of this and take that into consideration when dickering over price.

[Train-O]

Brent,

You're right about the Lionel Techs, both at the Michigan and Ohio locations, as well as, the Customer Service Dept. personnel, all taking pride in the Lionel name and heritage.  I recently delt with both Michigan and Ohio Techs., to have my U30C diesel serviced and they all couldn't have been nicer and helpful to me.

As, for the 'Authorized Service Center' designation, it looks as though my local shop will not have that destinction any longer, because their repair personnel haven't attended the courses in Ohio and that's why I had to ship my engine off to Lionel, Ohio.
No parts, no can fixie, as Brent mentioned: If a repair person don't attend the classes for certification, then the repair person's shop will not receive newer parts from Lionel, untill someone becomes qualified, because Lionel don't want to get a bad reputation over a poor repair job, or worse sued. 
The unqualified shop will only be able to sell Lionel items and if that shop does any Lionel product repairs and something goes wrong with it, Lionel will Not back up that shop.

Ralph

[Boxcar Bill]

Ralph

 A dealer can still get parts for repairs from Lionel, they still can do repairs. They can't do warranty work.

 

Bill

[challenger3980]

Chuck,

  Why wouldn't someone expect to get a warranty with a Brand New unopened locomotive? What difference should it make if the dealer has had it in stock for a couple of years (or more) If it worked when it went into the box, it should work when taken out for the first time. If it was defective when it was packaged, it would have been a warranty issue if it had been sold 30 seconds after being put on the dealers shelf.

  The particular locomotives that I am talking about were Lionel's TOP of the LINE limited production models only released one year each. The Challengers had an MSRP of $1,800.00 IIRC, and the 4-12-2 was I believe $1,500.00. If I am going to spend around $5,000.00 on three locomotives, that have never been sold or opened, I expect a little support from Lionel. These are just examples of models that I am interested in, in particular, there are plenty of other "New Old Stock" locomotives out there, that others would be interested in as well. For locomotives like these to sit on the shelf for an extended time is not that uncommon, while these are limited run items, there is also a limited customer base, that will justify these purchases. If the box has never been opened, and the locomotive is still at the original ordering dealer, why wouldn't it be considered "New"?

  You may not collect or be able to justify that kind of price for a locomotive, but some of us can. I personally wouldn't spend $20-30,000.00 on a Harley, or $50,000.00+ on a Corvette, but there are those who would.

  Unfortunately, the dealers that I have found that have these are on the other side of the country, and asking to "test run" them is not an option.

Doug

[chuck]

Why wouldn't someone expect to get a warranty with a Brand New unopened locomotive? What difference should it make if the dealer has had it in stock for a couple of years (or more) If it worked when it went into the box, it should work when taken out for the first time. If it was defective when it was packaged, it would have been a warranty issue if it had been sold 30 seconds after being put on the dealers shelf.

The thirty second scenario is still covered by the implied warranty, aka it dies out off the box, you are covered.   The dealer may be SOL but you should get your money back under most state/fed consumer protection laws/rules. 

How long is the original purchase warranty supposed to be in effect if an item isn't purchased for years?  Three years sounds pretty reasonable to me.  There are issues with lubricants drying up/out, paint adhesion to packaging, possible improper storage, etc.  The company has no idea what a dealer is doing to/with the equipment once it leaves their possession.   Availability of parts is another concern for the company.  They only make x number of items and then y amounts of spare parts to cover repairs for x.  The old days of massive quantities of spares are gone.  There was too much money tied up in inventory and everyone complains when items don't change.

I'm betting the time frame on this is sliding number (it says five years on my HE add on pack) is based in part on trial law cases where the limits are being set on what is "reasonable".  What's reasonable for a toaster oven may not really apply to a $1000 toy locomotive.

[sir james I]

This warrnty issue is not the only problem I foresee, I wonder how long we will be able to get parts for these high priced items. I am a loyal Lionel fan but it appears if you need a part several years down the road we are going to get a No Parts Available answer. For me this direction means I would have to want it awful bad to spend big dollars on their engines.

[Anonymous]

Aside from the warranty issue, I think that the replacement parts situation would be improved if the was more standardization in terms of parts. Not to start a brand war, but I like the approach that MTH uses with PS2 by using the same board set in most engines. This would allow parts to be interchangeable, and that could extend the lifespan of the product and save the company money at the same time.

[chuck]

MTH uses two major types of PS-2 boards and there are actually several variation within each type.  There are at least four tach sensors (none interchangeable).   I think Williams is the last holdout for basic rugged components that you can get replacements for.

The MTH stuff was designed so the SOFTWARE downloads would be interchangeable (although this doesn't work either since there are several different fly wheels too).

I bought an electric chain saw back in the spring to finish cutting up a downed tree.  The saw had a component failure just as I was wrapping things up and all of the big work was done.  The company that imported the saw was bankrupt.  I had a one year warranty that wasn't worth spit.  The repair centers couldn't even get parts if I was willing to pay the labor charges.   Since I had an extended warranty  (cost $10.00) once I went through about two weeks of phone calls to various parties the store invoked the replacement clause and refunded my money.  This was a CHAIN SAW, not a limited production complex electronic toy.   I used to be able to get parts for my major appliances at relatively local distributors, stuff like motors, switches, etc.  They're gone and most internet sites don't stock much "old" (aka over 5 years) stuff.  You can try E-Bay but mostly the items becomes disposable.  So much for craftsmanship and standing behind your products .   I guess they do stand behind them, about as far away as possible.

[Anonymous]

Chuck,

            I knew about the early 5V and newer 3V PS2 boards, but I never knew about any other variations within those.

[Train-O]

Bill,

You are correct, and give me a whack in the head, because Lionel does sell parts to the genral public.

Thank You,

Ralph

[Train-O]

Doug,

What you posted about the product being brand new, old stock, fresh off of the dealer's shelf and the Warranty being voided, due to the 'Ole' Time Lapse Principal B.S.', is what happened to me.
This past May I bought a Lionel U30C diesel made in 2002 , notice the year of manufacture and according to the shop owner, who sold it to me, said; "It's a BRANDEEEE NEW, never before used diesel engine."

Guess what?

That's right!  There was a defect, which of course the Warranty had expired, due to the LOOOOONG ago date that the engine was made and the Warranty only covered a certain time period, which my engine was way past that Warranty covering time period and since yours truely AIN'T good at repairs, I had to rely on B.S. from the seller and my own local shop, because my shop does not want to touch something which they did not sell and that someone tried to repair same.  When, I questioned the seller, he denied it.  Who tried to repair the engine?  Only, the Shadow knows! 

Talk about long winded and long run on sentences!

Solution!  They, both referred me to the Pros. at Lionel and the Lionel personnel I dealt with  were very respectful to me and of my problem child.

In my opinion, I always did and still do, like Lionel products and the Lionel staff are first rate, in spite of my Warranty problem!

Ralph

[sgtcote1]

I had a similar problem just this week execpt they told me that since my loco was manufatured back in 07 that my warrenty was long expired. Even though I just baught the set a week ago tomorrow.

 The Customer service rep was very nice and respectfull even though she knew I was a bit distraught.

 after paying almost $500 dollars for a "new" set to come home and find out that the train sounds would not work worth a darn.   Anyways I did call back to Lionel and asked to speak to a manager or supervisor and He told me that they would take care of my problem at no charge and he would see to the repairs himself to ensure that they were done correctley.

 I still love Lionel products even though they are all made in China "as far as I know"  but my love will always be stronger on the post war models which may not have all the bells and whistles but were made here in the USA and still puff along the track strong and reliable.

 Sorry for the rambeling but It kind of feels good to talk about this issue.

 

[Anonymous]

anything that was not manufacturerd within the past year should ALWAYS see a test track before it is purchased, hell I don't buy anything that I haven't seen run on a test layout first. That includes anything purchased at my LTS who I personally know the owner of and most of the repair/salesmen. I couldn't tell you the last time I was in and someone bought something without them first putting it on the test track.

If I find something older that I want on-line, then I get it in writting that the seller will refund my money & shipping if the items doesn't work when I receive it.

[nomthever]

well i have a problem here that goes right along with this whole warranty thing. i recently bought a lionel sd 80 from someone on ebay and wouldn't you know the electronics in it are no good.. the person that sold me this unit said that it was in new condition and when i got it it looked new to me, now i have had it to my local lionel service center and they said they cant fix it as i didnt buy it from them and they cant get the parts for it because it was made in 1999 and is no longer coverd under warrenty. so now i am stuck with an 18 pound brick that i guess i can use for a boat anchor. im am going to think long and hard before i buy anymore lionel locos because if they arent going to stand behind there product then im not going to stand behind them.i 

[tailpipe62]

I am not as experienced as the rest of you, so forgive me if I am mistaken.  I have always bought trains for the kids in the family but never saved money for myself.  So now I am starting my own layout.  But in the past, just as I do now I buy at the Local shop.  Most of the time I can get what I want cheaper on line, but I know if anything is wrong he will stand by the product.  Being new and trying to learn what runs with what, on what has been a challenge.  The marx train here my Son in Law runs is nice, simple and very enjoyable!

 

And in this time of economic turmoil I like to know my money is in the local area.

[balidas]

Tremendous steam collection!

 

challenger3980

 

 

Doug

[Deputy]

Interesting and helpful thread. Personally, I haven't had to send anything in for warranty work to either Lionel or MTH (knock on wood). But the idea of buying a $1500-$2000 loco and then it needing repair and telling me there are no parts available for it definitely makes me uneasy. It hadn't occured to me that limited production items would also be high risk purchases. Having a $2000 shelf dispaly is a bit beyond my budget. I used to proudly proclaim that ALL my stuff was modern 3-rail scale O and no postwar was present. Not any more. Last year I bought a whole bunch of postwar locos.  Some of them needed minor repair like new contact rollers or brushes in the motor. I have the Greenberg repair guide and it was quite simple to get them working properly, even for an imcompetent, non-handyman like myself. And there is an amazing number of parts still available from multiple sources for postwar locos. I had been considering either a Challenger or Big Boy from Lionel. Not any more. This thing about them being "new" only referring to them being new/current just doesn't seem right. Are we going to have to do like autos and title train parts to verify if they are new or used? A car that wasn't sold in 2010 is still considered new and is still covered by a new car warranty when purchased. The warranty begins with the purchase date. Obviously you can't buy a brand new 1969 Mustang Boss 429 (I WISH!) and have it covered by a new car warranty.  It would be kinda cool to see an "extended warranty" coverage be available for purchase for the expensive locos like they do for autos.

What really surprises me about this whole warranty thing with Lionel is it comes at a time when companies are actually INCREASING their waranty coverage. Some companies are actually offering TRANSFERABLE lifetime warranties to consumers. Why? Because the economy is a mess and consumers aren't buying products unless they offer the maximum bang for their buck. Are Lionel big $$$$ items flying off the shelf? I kinda doubt it. And I don't see how a reduction in warranty coverage is gonna stimulate sales.

The only good news I see in all of this is some electronic stuff installed in Lionel can be purchased by the consumer and installed himself. Things like TMCC and Railsounds 4 is still available for purchase. But the more modern stuff is still controlled by Lionel. Not exactly a stimulus to buy a Railsounds 5/Legacy loco.  

[wallyworld]

A couple of immediate thoughts as a knee jerk reaction:

1. The pricing of new in the box collecting prices may go down.

2. The trend has appeared at least to me right or wrong, that repair efficiency was stepped up while internal quality control went down.Now the door is closing more on warranty ( read liable no cost repairs) Is all this evidence that the brand's reputation as reliable and a good investment about to nose dive?

3. The lifespan of products should be priced accordingly. In other words taking a larger risk on the part of consumers should be reflected in what we are willing to pay as in planned obsolescence.

4. Postwar equipment may go up in cost as it has a longer lifespan and might be more desirable.

5. I think the profit margins at Lionel are slimmer than we assume they are, Closing the door on warranties is undoubtedly a cost saving tactic while the durability and sustainability of the brand goes down.

If I were at Lionel, I would voice the opinion that a shorter lifespan for products, an increasing cost of the product and tightening the door of warranties is a recipe for disaster. Look at all those actions in the opposite, and it tells me something is askew at Lionel. Bells and whistles do not a product make, the reliability the company standing behind it's product, the quality of the product is what ultimately matters. This seems to be common sense. If Lionel made cars instead of toys trains, they would go out of business quickly if they pursue this business plan which sounds like a step back than one going forward.

[Deputy]

wallyworld

A couple of immediate thoughts as a knee jerk reaction:

1. The pricing of new in the box collecting prices may go down.

2. The trens has appeared at least to me right or wrong, that repair efficiency was stepped up while internal quality control went down.

3. The lifespan of products should be priced accordingly. In other words taking a larger risk on the part of consumers should be reflected in what we are willing to pay as in planned obsolescence.

4. Postwar equipment may go up in cost as it has a longer lifespan and might be more desirable.

5. I think the profit margins at Lionel are slimmer than we assume they are, Closing the door on warranties is undoubtedly a cost saving tactic while the durability and sustainability of the brand goes down.

A few thoughtes on your thoughts

On #1...I wouldn't bet on that. Supply and demand and included features has a lot to do with NIB collectors items. Some folks want a specific item "no matter what" and will pay any price to get it. 

On #3...not likely. Lifespan often depends on amount of use an item gets. Hard to price that accoordingly. Lionel or MTH is not going to hint that some of their items have a short lifespan.

On #4...the durability and repairability of postwar items has been known for a very long time. Pricing on them will most likely remain a supply and demand factor. I follow E-bay pretty closely and those that price their items way above the price guides rarely sell the item. Prices for postwar items are also affected by time of year (Christmas prices are always higher) as well as being affected by the current economy.

On #5...nobody knows. But I don't think they are eating peanut butter sammiches in the corporate offices when they go to lunch.  If it is a cost-saving tactic, and it probably is, it may turn around and bite them in the rear. Saving cost won't be much help if you aren't selling your product in the first place.
It would be like Classic Toy Trains printing their magazine on brown paper garbage bags in black and white ink. Yeah, they are saving cost and the content is still there, but would anyone buy it? 

 

 

[wallyworld]

Deputy

 

wallyworld:

 

A couple of immediate thoughts as a knee jerk reaction:

1. The pricing of new in the box collecting prices may go down.

2. The trens has appeared at least to me right or wrong, that repair efficiency was stepped up while internal quality control went down.

3. The lifespan of products should be priced accordingly. In other words taking a larger risk on the part of consumers should be reflected in what we are willing to pay as in planned obsolescence.

4. Postwar equipment may go up in cost as it has a longer lifespan and might be more desirable.

5. I think the profit margins at Lionel are slimmer than we assume they are, Closing the door on warranties is undoubtedly a cost saving tactic while the durability and sustainability of the brand goes down.

 

 

A few thoughtes on your thoughts

On #1...I wouldn't bet on that. Supply and demand and included features has a lot to do with NIB collectors items. Some folks want a specific item "no matter what" and will pay any price to get it. 

On #3...not likely. Lifespan often depends on amount of use an item gets. Hard to price that accoordingly. Lionel or MTH is not going to hint that some of their items have a short lifespan.

On #4...the durability and repairability of postwar items has been known for a very long time. Pricing on them will most likely remain a supply and demand factor. I follow E-bay pretty closely and those that price their items way above the price guides rarely sell the item. Prices for postwar items are also affected by time of year (Christmas prices are always higher) as well as being affected by the current economy.

On #5...nobody knows. But I don't think they are eating peanut butter sammiches in the corporate offices when they go to lunch.  If it is a cost-saving tactic, and it probably is, it may turn around and bite them in the rear. Saving cost won't be much help if you aren't selling your product in the first place.
It would be like Classic Toy Trains printing their magazine on brown paper garbage bags in black and white ink. Yeah, they are saving cost and the content is still there, but would anyone buy it? 

Well, time will tell. My point is that the customer floats the boat and the jury is still out. There is a lead time \ lag time to this development where the consumer faced with a choice has more than one option as far as product. If I were MTH I would be looking at countering this business plan of Lionel's if economically feasible or practice by making parts readily available, increasing warranties and making quality #1 and broadcast this loudly. I think theres a hole in Lionel's armor that could be perhaps exploited and might be. The consumer , not Lionel will determine all this I suppose.

[Deputy]

wallyworld

If I were at Lionel, I would voice the opinion that a shorter lifespan for products, an increasing cost of the product and tightening the door of warranties is a recipe for disaster. Look at all those actions in the opposite, and it tells me something is askew at Lionel. Bells and whistles do not a product make, the reliability the company standing behind it's product, the quality of the product is what ultimately matters. This seems to be common sense. If Lionel made cars instead of toys trains, they would go out of business quickly if they pursue this business plan which sounds like a step back than one going forward.

 

LOL...and if Donald Trump was running Lionel, he would say..."Wally...you're FIRED!"

But I agree 100% with what you said. I get the uneasy feeling that Lionel has some economic "experts" from the current administration giving them advice.