Well I'll tell you why ... not calling that shop owner any names ... LOL . He saw a NEW GUY ... UNIMFORMED WITH CASH ! He had no scruples about selling him probably stuff he could'nt move ... never tested and did'nt care less . I agree .... take all of it back ... there's surely a consumer law there ... and I myself would never enter that shop again . Jeremy then hang out here ask questions and you'll get answers before you buy . A small wait is worth more than a large mistake ! And if you want a transformer WITH great built in protection look for a buy on an MTH Z-4000 also with a cooling fan in it and full digital readout of ALL the happenings . That's what about every club and large layout owner now use here for their main unit .... and believe me many here also who run the more modern engines . The older type engines don't need them as much ... but you're going proto an/or tmcc and really that's what you should have and don't have to have additional hardware to wire up and spend money on for short protection . I know the blasts are coming from some KW owners ... but extremely high end breakers .... cooling fan .... digital full control monitoring of all functions are just a few of the advantages over Lionel's power system .... they just don't have it without spending mega dollars extra for them if they are possible to add at all . Just my opinion .... but most of the huge clubs can't be wrong .....
Some MTH locos with ProtoSounds-1 came without on-off switches for the smoke unit. If you charged them up on the track per the Owner's Manual you would certainly burn out the smoke unit. I did. Hand carried it (circa 1996) back to MTH and got new smoke unit and on-off switch under warranty.
Don't quite understand how the CW-80 got into this thread. I happen to be one of those weird folks who like them for modest consists of Lionel equipment (as long as we're talking about one of the REVISED ones) but in no case would I give a blanket recommendation for use with MTH equipment. (Sometimes they work with MTH; sometimes they don't. That's too much variety for me.)
If you want to run MTH stuff to the full extent of its capabilities, get a Z-1000 or Z-4000, although once you get your chip unscrambled, the KW plus a Sound Activation Button should be OK. Not great, mind you, just OK.
In any event, follow the advice about protection against both short circuits AND voltage spikes. Two separate devices are needed. See "lionelsoni."
challenger3980Hi Guys, I can give you one REALLY GOOD possible reason that the shop reccomended the KW rather than DCS. Jeremy said that his Locomotive has Proto Sound & Proto Smoke, he didn't say it has Proto Sound 2. DCS wont do anything for a PS1 locomotive that conventional control wont do, as far as I know. Doug
Hi Guys,
I can give you one REALLY GOOD possible reason that the shop reccomended the KW rather than DCS. Jeremy said that his Locomotive has Proto Sound & Proto Smoke, he didn't say it has Proto Sound 2. DCS wont do anything for a PS1 locomotive that conventional control wont do, as far as I know.
Doug
You are right about the PSI not working with the DCS. I have both PS1 and PS2 engines. The choice is to run the PS1 in conventional mode or pay big $$$ to convert it to PS2. I have, on occasion, run both on the same track by setting the Z-4000 to 18V and controlling the PS2 with the DCS.
Don and SJ are correct. Unfortunately, your dealer is not a nice man. Take it back, take a deep breath, and start over. Check out several other dealers. If you find one or two you like check them out with other Toy Train folks. There are more of us around than you might think.
As a novice, I suggest not going to train shows unless you can take a knowledgeable person with you.
Some show dealers are getting desperate. The last show I went to I saw a PS2 sticker on a PS1 starter set!
RFD-TV --- Rural America's most important network!
I did'nt get to read every post ... but if this was his first buy to get into O scale .. I pity him .... what a bummer . Jeremy ... since it was and if you buy used from now on .... make the shop or private guy test run the components thoroughly before you plunk down your bucks .... especially if it's long distance from your home . If they refuse be very leary ! When I bought my brand new Z-4000 I made the shop owner pull her out of the carton and wire it up .... even NIB sometimes is bad from the assembly line .... transformers and engines . Welcome to our world .... I just wish the transition would have been smoother . And as stated ... get some protection for shorts ... as they will fry proto and tmcc engines .
KW is a great transformer. I've got 4. I now use them for aux. power. I now use Post War ZW's. Bob Nelson is right. Look at Scott's Odds and Ends. Get the circuit breaker box and the TVS's. You'll be protected good and will not have to worry about "frying" electronics.
http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/circuit_breakers.htm
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
jayres1973On the KW, I got it for $125. and as long as I have the receipt, they'll exchange it "no questions asked" for up to a year. I guess it was an okay price. They're wanting to make everything right with me on the loco. So, It might be later this week or so, before I can get up there
Glad to hear the dealer will make everything right with the engine. As far as the KW is concerned, $125 is not a bad price. We were paying $1 a watt for transformers 10-15 years ago. If he gave you a one year warranty, it's likely he serviced it with new cord, rollers, and whatnot. Lionelsoni is right about adding a TVS. There is an outfit called Scott's Odds and ends that sells them for your application. He charges more than a parts dealer but all the sizing is done for you.
http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm
A Z-4000 transformer would of set you back in the neighborhood of $400 or better so you got into the hobby without creaming your wallet. The KW can be designated to accessories should you later expand into high tech. Fastrack is a great stanby until you get into a permenant set up because it stays together nicely without fastening it down. In a nut shell, the KW was a good choice to start with. You really want to know what direction you want to go before buying into high tech because there are compatibility issues and high tech is not cheap.
I am running a TMCC outfit on a ZW with a TPC 300. The TPC unit controls PS-1 engines nicely. It accesses horn, bell, electro-couplers, sound volume, squeeling brakes, station sounds, etc with no more than a few key strokes (aux 1 followed by number key). Something to consider should you decide to go with Lionel and Atlas TMCC controlled engines.
You can put fuses and electronic circuit breakers on your KW if you want, but they are not really an appropriate protection for your locomotive electronics. If those electronics ever start drawing enough current to trip a breaker or blow a fuse, they are already toast. What your electronics are vulnerable to is high voltage. Whenever there is a short circuit on your track, like a derailment, the short circuit closes and opens many times in a fraction of a second. Each time the short circuit clears, the transformer is likely to generate a voltage spike in the hundreds of volts. These are what will damage your locomotive. A fast circuit breaker or fuse may limit the length of time during which this will happen, but doesn't directly address the real problem of excessive voltage. For that you need a transient voltage suppressor (TVS). These are ridiculously cheap and easy to install.
With a TVS in place, your transformer's thermal circuit breaker can do all that you need to protect your wiring (which should be at least 16 AWG with the KW). It will trip before the fault current has lasted long enough to damage the transformer or the wiring, but no sooner than necessary, saving you the nuisance of resetting a circuit breaker or replacing a fuse.
Bob Nelson
Jeremy, I see by your last post that things are looking up. It sounds like the store is doing right by you and every thing should be fine now. You can keep some of my comments in the other post for future reference.
Happy railroading,
Ray
SPMan
dbaker48Boy do I ever agree with you SJ,
Don has nailed it with his comments. It sounds like you got a reasonable price but it should still work the first time you try it. I think you should take it back to the store and have them reset the chip that has been scrambled if that is what has happened. Why should you have to buy a reset kit? You may want one in the future but that's up to you. This is a very fixable problem. Your engine will run again. It just needs attention from the store. As for transformers, the Lionel KW works OK for post war and conventional trains but I would not recommend it for modern electronic equipped engines. The circuit breakers in those bad boys react too slowly. They have a bi-metal strip that has to heat up before it pops. By that time, your electronics are history. If you use it, you should get a fast blow fuse to work with it. On the other hand, I have and recommend the MTH Z4000 for MTH engines. Besides being user friendly with the right controls for accessing features on MTH trains, they have a quick acting circuit breaker. Since I got mine, I have never had a blown board. I used to use a KW and ZW as well. Now I just use them for powering lights and things on the layout. The best solution for the battery problem has already been stated here. Get a J&W Electronics BCR battery replacement. It is the same size as the MTH battery and fits the same socket. They are advertised in the hobby magazines and cost about $22. You will never need another battery. It is not a battery, it is a capicitor and just needs charging up with track power for about one minute before running. After that you can run all day. You will never scramble a chip from low battery because it is'nt a battery. A low battery causes the scramble because the electronics don't get enough power to know what to do. That's when you get the three clanks of death and the scramble. A low battery is worse than a dead battery. DCS is another matter. That is a control system and you don't have to have it right away to run this engine. You will get the maximum out of all MTH Proto 2 engines, however with that system. Hope you get this resolved to your satifaction. Let us know how you make out with the store.
Best regards, Ray
Suckered? Naw. That is one beaut. I think you paid fair market value with some retail marked on it. My gut feeling is the dealer got you started in the hobby with some neat stuff with sounds and all without you spending a ton of money. It just torques me he didn't get it run ready condition the way he should have maybe. For all we know, he might make it right without you spending an additional dime. The one neat thing about the KW transformer besides being big on power is the case and lever mocks a real diesel engine. Old school all the way, dude! You probably got a good deal on that, did you?
I am a big fan of old school and I agree it has a charm of it's own which is why most of my stuff is postwar with some MPC thrown in. Like anything else, old school does have its share of problems. However, the fixes are much simpler than electronic issues in most cases.
Getting back to Jeremy's situation, he claims to like the engine enough to not return it and I can't blame him. Coming from the world of HO, it's likely the RK Northern is more appealing to him than say a postwar 736. Plugging in a board descrambler is no more complicated than replacing motor brushes in a postwar motor. That is if he has access to a descrambler such as his dealer. Having to buy one is not so bad because they cost 30 bucks and are a handy tool to have. I agree with Chuck that a replacement battery or BCR is good insurance.
Seriously, $250 is not a bad price for that engine. Even if he ends up spending and additional $25 or $50, I don't see a big shaft coming out of the sky. I just see it as a learning experience many of us have gone through. I think once he gets his Northern running right, he's going to have a blast with it and his feelings about the situation will take a 180 degree turn.
krapug1There is also something to be said here about the simple joys of conventional O gauge trains. Yes, all the "bling" is nice, BUT it comes at a cost, a big cost in some cases. I only have 3 MTH engines in my stable of about 70, and my favorite of the three is my CNJ Dockside Swicther which is as basic as MTH gets, yet is smokes like a beast, and the air whistle works great ! My MTH 2-8-0 consolidation has PS-2, and it works fine with my ZW (save for the extras that the Z does not trigger), and on my upper level I have a MTH Z-something transformer (150 watts) with a handheld that works most of the PS-2 bling. My MTH (Railking) Chessie F-3 A-A with PS-2 is just about useless except as a paper weight. In this case wires that lead to and from the power trucks are too close to the slots in the metal frame, and they shred causing the engine to spark and short, and frankly the remedy (filing the opening wider and repacking the VERY tny wires) is way too taxing for a relaxing hobby. Actually it's more than a paperweight, I use it as a "show and tell" as to why I don't buy more MTH. Upshot, consider conventional power for a relaxing hobby. Ken
You hit the nail on the head as far as Im concerned. I bought into all the hype of CC but from the other company. It ultimately took away all the things I had come to like about collecting and operating toy trains. Im now back, way back to pre-war standard gauge where the highest bit of technology is the good old electro-mechanical e-unit, Ahhhhhhhhhhhh
It's not as bad as it sounds but:
Three clanks of death means exacty what it sounds like. The engine is locked and you will need the repair chip set to unlock/fix it. The store should have the chip and know how to use it or be able to get it fairly easily. The reason for the scrambling is the battery in the engine is dead. It needs to be replaced before doing anything else. While it will appear to take a charge, it can't hold it and you run the risk of rescrambling it. A new/fresh battery or a BCR device will avoid the problems in the future. The battery is one half of the achilles heel in the PS-2 system. The other half is the "reset" mode these loco's start up in. Until the engine clears reset, any DC offsets or volatge swings will be interpreted as programming commands. The trouble is that reset looks like neutral. It's not.
You don't need DCS at this point in time and it won't get you much out of a PS-1 loco that you can't get with the KW. A Z-4000 is nice and does support easy diagnostics/reprogramming but it will set you back more than the cost of the loco.
dbaker48 Boy do I ever agree with you SJ, I was at a train show yesterday and there were lots of PS1 engines for sale. And many people were amazed at the low price for a "remote control" engine at such a low price.
LOL....In my neck of the woods, half the show dealers want full price for PS-1 and blame the economy for the stuff rotting on their tables. There is a RK PS-1 1130 SF northern on ebay right now and the dealer wants full price: $479 buy it now. Jeremy is saying he got his for $250 so maybe he did get a good deal. I dunno. The RK Northern is a dramatic looking beast and I can see why he hesitates to return it at that price. Knowing the battery issues and how they can be dealt with, I know I would be tempted to spring if it was staring at me in the face at that price. I did this with an FP-45 I got for $150 not long ago and I am very happy with it.
Getting through this and using TLC with the battery may very well be the best alternative judging from the beauty of the engine and the price he paid. I just think the dealer should prep things better and be more informative in these situations if they expect repeat business. Additionally, being new to the hobby, Jeremy's stomach does not need this. I can feel his pain but on the other side of the coin, I'm seeing a jar that's half full here. Not half empty.
Boy do I ever agree with you SJ, I was at a train show yesterday and there were lots of PS1 engines for sale. And many people were amazed at the low price for a "remote control" engine at such a low price. The unsuspecting buyers were talking about how they had seen the remote engines and all the features, and didn't realize they could get them at such a low price. The sellers didn't mention the differance. I tried to hang around and get an opportunity to explain the differance, but wasn't very successful. I too would return the train and transformer. The engine is what, a 90's engine, and a 50-60's transformer? Engine may be new in box, but for a little more could get a "true" remote. Need a better train shop! There are a lot of Ready to Run sets available, and entry level products in multiple manufacturers.
Don
The real tragedy here is the fact this store sold a new customer an old product, although new,way out of date and an even older transformer. I say if you bought it with a credit card take it back and go shop somewhere else. these people will never be your friend. There are a lot of brands to choose from look at some others before buying.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
3railguy I would not jump to conclusions with the 3 clangs of death too quickly. If you haven't already, a good charging is all the battery may need. I have a PS-1 DL-109/110 set that did the death clang a few years ago. It would not move. The horn would blow continuously when I tried to cycle forward. All the symtoms of death. I then charged it in neutral for 2 hours. After that, it took right off. Horn would only blow when I triggered it and all. I then gave it a full 10 hour charge and everything has been fine since. Not once did I ever give it a good charge since the day I bought it so that may explain it. Otherwise, I know your pain. Once you get past this obstacle, you'll be fine. The KW is a good powerful transformer. It just has goofy voltage taps. It's a dissapointment the dealer who sold it to you didn't prep the engine for you.
I would not jump to conclusions with the 3 clangs of death too quickly. If you haven't already, a good charging is all the battery may need. I have a PS-1 DL-109/110 set that did the death clang a few years ago. It would not move. The horn would blow continuously when I tried to cycle forward. All the symtoms of death. I then charged it in neutral for 2 hours. After that, it took right off. Horn would only blow when I triggered it and all. I then gave it a full 10 hour charge and everything has been fine since. Not once did I ever give it a good charge since the day I bought it so that may explain it.
Otherwise, I know your pain. Once you get past this obstacle, you'll be fine. The KW is a good powerful transformer. It just has goofy voltage taps. It's a dissapointment the dealer who sold it to you didn't prep the engine for you.
3railguy makes some good points here. I do remember you saying that the shop forgot to put the battery back in the packaging. Before you jump to conclusions about the engine, wait for the battery to arrive, and give it a good charge. I would also highly recommend the BCR that was recommended earlier.Your 3 Clangs of death may simply be the fact that the battery is missing.
All of this is why I rarely buy MTH. Especially PS1. If I do buy a PS1 [cheap], I gut it and install an Electric RR kit and get TMCC, Railsounds and cruise.
Hi Jeremy
I just looked at MTH's website, your locomotive is PS (1) not PS2, looks to have a thumbtack rear coupler, not a proto coupler (remote control), so from what I can tell, there was nothing at all wrong with getting the KW with this. If your locomotive has a bell sound (MTH website didn't give details) that would be the only function that the KW wouldn't operate.
From what I have learned here on the forum, the scrambled board is not something that the Z4000 would fix, you need the descramble kit, I could be wrong, but that is the best current info, that I know.
Your shop has the kit, they may be able to do it for you, but those that have used it, say that it is easy to do once you have the kit.
BTW, that looks like a Very Nice locomotive you've got there, my Nephew would be Jealous, I got him started in O-Gauge, Santa Fe, his Little Brother, some Cousins and myself model Union Pacific( I also collect Southern Pacific) and another of his Cousins I got started in New York Central.
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
when you first turn loco on are the sounds garbeled if so the battery needs charged.
as to no engine movement upon startup of a ps-1 loco they go into a reset state as it under goes a system check this usually lasts 3-4 seconds, after that time you can move the power handle to off and then on again and the engine will respond by moving in a forward direction if you move handle of transformer to off and then reapply power it will go into a nuetral position power off and on again and it will go backwards. a side note if power to track is off more than 3 seconds it will re-enter the reset state again and cycle the power off and on as above. hope this helps you. the smoke unit has an on\off switch under the cab on steamers on the right side diesels are somewhere on the underside too. when you can even though the kw is good get yourself a MTH Z-4000 transformer as it can do the PS-1 resets if needed oh so much easier then clanks and bells.
as to DCS its good but unless you have a lot of mth engines not needed till you get a few of the ps-2 units then the fun really begins with cool features only imitated in a childs mind! enjoy ps-1 was state of the art not so long ago.
read a post on 3 clangs of death was this a new engine sold to you? if so take it back and have them make it correct as a warranty. I would also look else where for a reliable mth dealer preferebly with an in house repair shop and a certified tech with MTH.
to bad tas no longer sells direct as they had a board that was tmcc compatible and you could still use the ps-1 sound board with it best of both worlds true command control and original ps-1 sounds I have 4 ps-1 locos going loud and strong.
you will find this hobby to be challenging at times and at the same time rewarding, I still get a warm feeling when I set a conventional controlled engine on the track power it up and send it out with the steam whistle blowing sometimes simplicity is awesome, hang in there we've all been down the same road as you it's known as a learning curve! the best advice I can give you is surf here and the other train forums it's filled with a wealth of knowledge and the best part it's free all you have to do is ask and the information will follow.
Hi Jeremy,
If your locomotive is a Proto Sound (1) not Proto Sound 2, the KW, will let you access everything your locomotive will do including the remote coupler, like I explained in my last PM. You only need the bell button for the PS2 features. Also if you have a PS (1), not a PS2 locomotive to upgrade it to PS2 is about as expensive as just buying a PS2 locomotive anyway, unless you can install the upgrade your self (not just plug-n-play).
There is a LOT to learn, but hang in there, it will come faster and easier than you expect.
Jeremy,Stick with it bud... I think what happened here is a classic case of the newbie being taken. The engine you bought is not the latest and greatest MTH has to offer. If I were you I would take the KW and the engine back to the hobby store you bought them from. I would then recommend purchasing a Z4000 and a PS2 loco. No need to get involved in DCS at this time, the only thing the DCS system will offer you is remote control of your engine, the Z4000 gives you access to nearly all the PS2 features through the builtin buttons.Many people will shy away from PS1 locos due to their 'fragility' meaning you have to know what you are working with and how to avoid the 'scrambled board' problem. Lionel has had their problems with their TMCC and Legacy systems. What I recommend to new comers is to visit a couple stores, and if you can layouts that use the various control systems. A good place to do this is at shows where they have layouts setup. Listen to the different sound systems, ask for demos on the control systems, etc. Once you settle on what you like stick with it, you can run both Lionel Conventional Control, TMCC and Legacy engines with DCS - but you won't get all the TMCC or Legacy features with DCS, and you can run MTH Conventional Control, PS1 and PS2 engines with TMCC or Legacy - but you won't get all the PS2 features...BTW - I was at the LTS yesterday and there was a guy in there with an MTH HO w/PS3 nice engine but he was having problems with it... so it isn't just O gauge that has problems.
Berk765 The transformer might just not be compatible with the engine. My MTH does wierd things when I run it on the Lionel CW-80 transformer. Might be that.
The transformer might just not be compatible with the engine. My MTH does wierd things when I run it on the Lionel CW-80 transformer. Might be that.
Hi Berk,
is your locomotive a Proto Sound 2 locomotive? Some PS2 locomotives will blow their Whistles/Horns near continuously when run with a CW-80. The CW-80 uses a "Phase Control" current, that confuses the electronics in some PS2 locomotives, it doesn't hurt them to the best of my knowledge. Also with PS 2 locomotives, you can't access the Station Sounds/Freight Yard sounds and remote couplers with a CW-80.
Other than the PS2 issues, I Really Like the CW-80 transformer, when used within it's abilities, it just is not a ZW.
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