It's not as bad as it sounds but:
Three clanks of death means exacty what it sounds like. The engine is locked and you will need the repair chip set to unlock/fix it. The store should have the chip and know how to use it or be able to get it fairly easily. The reason for the scrambling is the battery in the engine is dead. It needs to be replaced before doing anything else. While it will appear to take a charge, it can't hold it and you run the risk of rescrambling it. A new/fresh battery or a BCR device will avoid the problems in the future. The battery is one half of the achilles heel in the PS-2 system. The other half is the "reset" mode these loco's start up in. Until the engine clears reset, any DC offsets or volatge swings will be interpreted as programming commands. The trouble is that reset looks like neutral. It's not.
You don't need DCS at this point in time and it won't get you much out of a PS-1 loco that you can't get with the KW. A Z-4000 is nice and does support easy diagnostics/reprogramming but it will set you back more than the cost of the loco.
krapug1There is also something to be said here about the simple joys of conventional O gauge trains. Yes, all the "bling" is nice, BUT it comes at a cost, a big cost in some cases. I only have 3 MTH engines in my stable of about 70, and my favorite of the three is my CNJ Dockside Swicther which is as basic as MTH gets, yet is smokes like a beast, and the air whistle works great ! My MTH 2-8-0 consolidation has PS-2, and it works fine with my ZW (save for the extras that the Z does not trigger), and on my upper level I have a MTH Z-something transformer (150 watts) with a handheld that works most of the PS-2 bling. My MTH (Railking) Chessie F-3 A-A with PS-2 is just about useless except as a paper weight. In this case wires that lead to and from the power trucks are too close to the slots in the metal frame, and they shred causing the engine to spark and short, and frankly the remedy (filing the opening wider and repacking the VERY tny wires) is way too taxing for a relaxing hobby. Actually it's more than a paperweight, I use it as a "show and tell" as to why I don't buy more MTH. Upshot, consider conventional power for a relaxing hobby. Ken
You hit the nail on the head as far as Im concerned. I bought into all the hype of CC but from the other company. It ultimately took away all the things I had come to like about collecting and operating toy trains. Im now back, way back to pre-war standard gauge where the highest bit of technology is the good old electro-mechanical e-unit, Ahhhhhhhhhhhh
I am a big fan of old school and I agree it has a charm of it's own which is why most of my stuff is postwar with some MPC thrown in. Like anything else, old school does have its share of problems. However, the fixes are much simpler than electronic issues in most cases.
Getting back to Jeremy's situation, he claims to like the engine enough to not return it and I can't blame him. Coming from the world of HO, it's likely the RK Northern is more appealing to him than say a postwar 736. Plugging in a board descrambler is no more complicated than replacing motor brushes in a postwar motor. That is if he has access to a descrambler such as his dealer. Having to buy one is not so bad because they cost 30 bucks and are a handy tool to have. I agree with Chuck that a replacement battery or BCR is good insurance.
Seriously, $250 is not a bad price for that engine. Even if he ends up spending and additional $25 or $50, I don't see a big shaft coming out of the sky. I just see it as a learning experience many of us have gone through. I think once he gets his Northern running right, he's going to have a blast with it and his feelings about the situation will take a 180 degree turn.
Suckered? Naw. That is one beaut. I think you paid fair market value with some retail marked on it. My gut feeling is the dealer got you started in the hobby with some neat stuff with sounds and all without you spending a ton of money. It just torques me he didn't get it run ready condition the way he should have maybe. For all we know, he might make it right without you spending an additional dime. The one neat thing about the KW transformer besides being big on power is the case and lever mocks a real diesel engine. Old school all the way, dude! You probably got a good deal on that, did you?
dbaker48Boy do I ever agree with you SJ,
Don has nailed it with his comments. It sounds like you got a reasonable price but it should still work the first time you try it. I think you should take it back to the store and have them reset the chip that has been scrambled if that is what has happened. Why should you have to buy a reset kit? You may want one in the future but that's up to you. This is a very fixable problem. Your engine will run again. It just needs attention from the store. As for transformers, the Lionel KW works OK for post war and conventional trains but I would not recommend it for modern electronic equipped engines. The circuit breakers in those bad boys react too slowly. They have a bi-metal strip that has to heat up before it pops. By that time, your electronics are history. If you use it, you should get a fast blow fuse to work with it. On the other hand, I have and recommend the MTH Z4000 for MTH engines. Besides being user friendly with the right controls for accessing features on MTH trains, they have a quick acting circuit breaker. Since I got mine, I have never had a blown board. I used to use a KW and ZW as well. Now I just use them for powering lights and things on the layout. The best solution for the battery problem has already been stated here. Get a J&W Electronics BCR battery replacement. It is the same size as the MTH battery and fits the same socket. They are advertised in the hobby magazines and cost about $22. You will never need another battery. It is not a battery, it is a capicitor and just needs charging up with track power for about one minute before running. After that you can run all day. You will never scramble a chip from low battery because it is'nt a battery. A low battery causes the scramble because the electronics don't get enough power to know what to do. That's when you get the three clanks of death and the scramble. A low battery is worse than a dead battery. DCS is another matter. That is a control system and you don't have to have it right away to run this engine. You will get the maximum out of all MTH Proto 2 engines, however with that system. Hope you get this resolved to your satifaction. Let us know how you make out with the store.
Best regards, Ray
SPMan
Jeremy, I see by your last post that things are looking up. It sounds like the store is doing right by you and every thing should be fine now. You can keep some of my comments in the other post for future reference.
Happy railroading,
Ray
You can put fuses and electronic circuit breakers on your KW if you want, but they are not really an appropriate protection for your locomotive electronics. If those electronics ever start drawing enough current to trip a breaker or blow a fuse, they are already toast. What your electronics are vulnerable to is high voltage. Whenever there is a short circuit on your track, like a derailment, the short circuit closes and opens many times in a fraction of a second. Each time the short circuit clears, the transformer is likely to generate a voltage spike in the hundreds of volts. These are what will damage your locomotive. A fast circuit breaker or fuse may limit the length of time during which this will happen, but doesn't directly address the real problem of excessive voltage. For that you need a transient voltage suppressor (TVS). These are ridiculously cheap and easy to install.
With a TVS in place, your transformer's thermal circuit breaker can do all that you need to protect your wiring (which should be at least 16 AWG with the KW). It will trip before the fault current has lasted long enough to damage the transformer or the wiring, but no sooner than necessary, saving you the nuisance of resetting a circuit breaker or replacing a fuse.
Bob Nelson
jayres1973On the KW, I got it for $125. and as long as I have the receipt, they'll exchange it "no questions asked" for up to a year. I guess it was an okay price. They're wanting to make everything right with me on the loco. So, It might be later this week or so, before I can get up there
Glad to hear the dealer will make everything right with the engine. As far as the KW is concerned, $125 is not a bad price. We were paying $1 a watt for transformers 10-15 years ago. If he gave you a one year warranty, it's likely he serviced it with new cord, rollers, and whatnot. Lionelsoni is right about adding a TVS. There is an outfit called Scott's Odds and ends that sells them for your application. He charges more than a parts dealer but all the sizing is done for you.
http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm
A Z-4000 transformer would of set you back in the neighborhood of $400 or better so you got into the hobby without creaming your wallet. The KW can be designated to accessories should you later expand into high tech. Fastrack is a great stanby until you get into a permenant set up because it stays together nicely without fastening it down. In a nut shell, the KW was a good choice to start with. You really want to know what direction you want to go before buying into high tech because there are compatibility issues and high tech is not cheap.
I am running a TMCC outfit on a ZW with a TPC 300. The TPC unit controls PS-1 engines nicely. It accesses horn, bell, electro-couplers, sound volume, squeeling brakes, station sounds, etc with no more than a few key strokes (aux 1 followed by number key). Something to consider should you decide to go with Lionel and Atlas TMCC controlled engines.
KW is a great transformer. I've got 4. I now use them for aux. power. I now use Post War ZW's. Bob Nelson is right. Look at Scott's Odds and Ends. Get the circuit breaker box and the TVS's. You'll be protected good and will not have to worry about "frying" electronics.
http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/circuit_breakers.htm
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
I did'nt get to read every post ... but if this was his first buy to get into O scale .. I pity him .... what a bummer . Jeremy ... since it was and if you buy used from now on .... make the shop or private guy test run the components thoroughly before you plunk down your bucks .... especially if it's long distance from your home . If they refuse be very leary ! When I bought my brand new Z-4000 I made the shop owner pull her out of the carton and wire it up .... even NIB sometimes is bad from the assembly line .... transformers and engines . Welcome to our world .... I just wish the transition would have been smoother . And as stated ... get some protection for shorts ... as they will fry proto and tmcc engines .
challenger3980Hi Guys, I can give you one REALLY GOOD possible reason that the shop reccomended the KW rather than DCS. Jeremy said that his Locomotive has Proto Sound & Proto Smoke, he didn't say it has Proto Sound 2. DCS wont do anything for a PS1 locomotive that conventional control wont do, as far as I know. Doug
Hi Guys,
I can give you one REALLY GOOD possible reason that the shop reccomended the KW rather than DCS. Jeremy said that his Locomotive has Proto Sound & Proto Smoke, he didn't say it has Proto Sound 2. DCS wont do anything for a PS1 locomotive that conventional control wont do, as far as I know.
Doug
You are right about the PSI not working with the DCS. I have both PS1 and PS2 engines. The choice is to run the PS1 in conventional mode or pay big $$$ to convert it to PS2. I have, on occasion, run both on the same track by setting the Z-4000 to 18V and controlling the PS2 with the DCS.
Don and SJ are correct. Unfortunately, your dealer is not a nice man. Take it back, take a deep breath, and start over. Check out several other dealers. If you find one or two you like check them out with other Toy Train folks. There are more of us around than you might think.
As a novice, I suggest not going to train shows unless you can take a knowledgeable person with you.
Some show dealers are getting desperate. The last show I went to I saw a PS2 sticker on a PS1 starter set!
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Some MTH locos with ProtoSounds-1 came without on-off switches for the smoke unit. If you charged them up on the track per the Owner's Manual you would certainly burn out the smoke unit. I did. Hand carried it (circa 1996) back to MTH and got new smoke unit and on-off switch under warranty.
Don't quite understand how the CW-80 got into this thread. I happen to be one of those weird folks who like them for modest consists of Lionel equipment (as long as we're talking about one of the REVISED ones) but in no case would I give a blanket recommendation for use with MTH equipment. (Sometimes they work with MTH; sometimes they don't. That's too much variety for me.)
If you want to run MTH stuff to the full extent of its capabilities, get a Z-1000 or Z-4000, although once you get your chip unscrambled, the KW plus a Sound Activation Button should be OK. Not great, mind you, just OK.
In any event, follow the advice about protection against both short circuits AND voltage spikes. Two separate devices are needed. See "lionelsoni."
Well I'll tell you why ... not calling that shop owner any names ... LOL . He saw a NEW GUY ... UNIMFORMED WITH CASH ! He had no scruples about selling him probably stuff he could'nt move ... never tested and did'nt care less . I agree .... take all of it back ... there's surely a consumer law there ... and I myself would never enter that shop again . Jeremy then hang out here ask questions and you'll get answers before you buy . A small wait is worth more than a large mistake ! And if you want a transformer WITH great built in protection look for a buy on an MTH Z-4000 also with a cooling fan in it and full digital readout of ALL the happenings . That's what about every club and large layout owner now use here for their main unit .... and believe me many here also who run the more modern engines . The older type engines don't need them as much ... but you're going proto an/or tmcc and really that's what you should have and don't have to have additional hardware to wire up and spend money on for short protection . I know the blasts are coming from some KW owners ... but extremely high end breakers .... cooling fan .... digital full control monitoring of all functions are just a few of the advantages over Lionel's power system .... they just don't have it without spending mega dollars extra for them if they are possible to add at all . Just my opinion .... but most of the huge clubs can't be wrong .....
Jeremy, Any chance of knowing or finding some other "O" gaugers in your area ?
There are a few that I know of in the Bluegrass State but none of them are in your area. One of the responders , Ben, is from the Lexington area so you might try dropping him a message to see if he knows of any within a reasonable distance. Possibly they could help with some guidance and instruction in avoiding problems, It sounds as though the hobby shop is going to be helpful in correcting the current issue.
Was going to suggest maybe a Z-1000 but of the two PS-1's that I have one will run but the other won't.
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3railguy So, Jeremy got into the hobby for nearly half the price of the "right" way. Unfortunately he ran into a snag which is reversible. If he loves his Northern and doesn't want to spend a ton more money, then let's FIX IT Is that so hard???? PS-1 engines may be outdated but with a little TLC on the battery issue, they are fantastic engines.
Either do it the "right Way" or don't do it. So he got started for half price. If he plans to expand in the future he will have to spent the other half anyway. And never let a dealer get away with selling you what he wants to get rid of. Z-4000's, PS2 and DCS are the future if you are going MTH.
My suggestion to Jeremy is to pay attention to Ole Timer. He has the experience and knows what he is talking about.
Just my opinion.
Patrick
I can see why the PS-1 northern sucker punched you. If that turns your crank, by all means, keep the Northern!! LOL!!!!
Bargain hunting is not such a bad thing starting out. Like you say, you wanted to see if you like the hobby or not which is a very sensible approach. There is a variety of good time proven technologies out there and there is no one right way to go about things. It all depends on how you were born into the hobby, your budget, and what your likes are. In my opinion you did fine and I think once you get your battery issue behind you, you will be thrilled with your engine. It should give you years of good service. Getting into high tech does not happen over night and like you say, it's expensive. You aren't going to meet up with O gauge buds overnight either. Additionally, everything you bought with exception of Fastrack can be worked into a high tech enviroment. The KW can be assigned to accessories. Your Northern can be upgraded to TMCC and Railsounds with Digital Dynamics and Electric RR gear. The conversions are not costly. To put it in a nut shell, I think you're off to a good start.
LawsonFarmsRR 3railguy So, Jeremy got into the hobby for nearly half the price of the "right" way. Unfortunately he ran into a snag which is reversible. If he loves his Northern and doesn't want to spend a ton more money, then let's FIX IT Is that so hard???? PS-1 engines may be outdated but with a little TLC on the battery issue, they are fantastic engines. Either do it the "right Way" or don't do it. So he got started for half price. If he plans to expand in the future he will have to spent the other half anyway. And never let a dealer get away with selling you what he wants to get rid of. Z-4000's, PS2 and DCS are the future if you are going MTH. My suggestion to Jeremy is to pay attention to Ole Timer. He has the experience and knows what he is talking about. Just my opinion. Patrick
Hi Jeremy,
I've been trying to keep up with this thread, I haven't abandoned you.
Jeremy is doin just Fine, if not "THE RIGHT WAY" in some people's opinion. The Z4000 is totally over kill at this point, Jeremy's locomotive is not PS2. It is his FIRST locomotive, so to be all worried that He MIGHT go MTH in the future, is jumping the gun by half a mile, in a quarter mile drag. The KW would still be useful for a large variety of puposes down the road, so is not (in MY opinion) money wasted.
John (3railguy) and I have disagreed on an issue or two in the past, but I have to Completely Agree with him on about everything so far in this thread. I think that the shop owner tried to meet Jeremy's needs the best he could, without blowing his budget on things that would not give him any benefit in what he was working with. Most shops are more than Happy to test run equipment, if asked, but I don't know of ANY shop that test runs EVERY piece of equipment before it goes out the door. As I recall, the locomotive DID run at first, when Jeremy brought it home, it was later that it failed, and is willing to try to make it right. The shop also offered a one year "No Questions Asked" Guaranty on a Probably 50 or more year old transformer. Sounds like he could be the Brother to Charley, the owner at Whistle Stop Trains here in Portland, First Class, All the Way myself, I wouldn't hesitate to shop there for a minute.
As far as, the opinion on modern transformers, I haven't used a Z4000, but 400 watts, 2 variable and 2 fixed voltage outputs, compared to a New ZW's Possible 720 watts, 4 variable outputs, I know which one I spent MY money on. But we each have our own needs, preferences and opinions.
Jeremy, I personally think that You did Very Well, with your first purchase, I have personally had problems with BOTH Lionel and MTH, Brand New, Right out of the box. In MY experience, I have had much better service from Lionel, when I did have the rare problem. You seemed to Like the Locomotive Very Much, it should be an easy fix, so "Get'er Done" an enjoy that New locomotive. You will learn the ins and outs quicker than you expect, so don't let a little set back like this discourage You, I do Hope that You do become a "Lifer" in this enjoyable hobby, like you mentioned that you expect to be.
Remember, trains are supposed to be FUN,
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Yes, both DCS and TMCC have their pros and cons. Both are good operating systems and both have their seasoned proponents. There is really no "right way" in this hobby. It just does not make sense to buy a Z-4000 unless you know you plan to buy into DCS and PS-2. PS-1 engines preform fine on pure sine wave and were designed for it. That's what KW's deliver. I've kept my bias out of this thread the best I could. Otherwise I would have told him electronics suck and to buy a postwar 736. However, I know better than to chime in with that kind of nonesense.
Now that more info has come out than at first I see where this has done a complete loop you might say and yes I agree with challenger and 3 rail and others in here you did good for your first buy. you get the chip set and you will be doing good or if you can get the shop owner to do it for you for free but like others have said if possible get a ( I think this is the correct one) Daley's replacement battery. well not actually from what I understand battery but it takes the place of it and you won't have to worry about having a dead engine again. I've always steered away from proto one because of the horror stories I've always heard and from a hobby shop owner but then again he sold both but was more Lionel type guy.
you will come out of this I'm sure fine and who knows maybe your next will be a postwar Lionel as 3 rail stated but my preference is a 681,671,682, or 2020 6-8-6 with a 2671W tender even thou they all didn't come with that tender.
either way keep coming back and do let us know how you made out. I now have a feeling the owner will make it right for you.
One comment thou do listen to some of these guys and there troubles with Railking switches.
I'm getting ready to build a layout my self and because toe cost of the switches i see this taking me about 3 years as i will only be able to afford a switch ever so often with the other things I will be doing and buying. but I'm going GarGraves track and probably there switches but may get some Ross switches.
Either way happy railroading and keep it going.
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jayres1973after the amount of money I dumped into this new hobby just yesterday, .... it's almost enough to end my days of even wanting to ever see a steam locomotive again. I want to thank all of you for your comments and help. This is the most frustrating type of "relaxing" hobby I've ever encountered. I don't see how many people stay with it. I know that I'm done with the KW, no matter what. I'll be buying a MTH DCS as soon as I get the loco repaired or whatever it needs. I'm also going to be buying some better track, ... "Atlas" of course, for me. I really like the size of O scale, but this "my first loco" will be a test to see if I've got the nerves and patience to stick with it. HO just looks more like a toy to me, but that's just my opinion. Ain't it fun?
Jeremy,
I can't imagine why you would feel that way, BTW, these are both Lionel and both are cab# 3980. Actually, YES I can imagine why you would feel that way, The O-Gauge is even a semi-scale LionMaster series Challenger. A Full scale model would would dwarf the HO model even a bit more. Unfortunately the Full Scale versions haven't fit into the budget yet.
Jeremy - it's been already been said, you got the best bang for the buck for sure and as long as your LTS guys stands behind what he sold you, then it's all good.
How I got back into it is simple. I purchased a new NYC Flyer by Lionel, then a Pennsy Flyer. I accumilated what I wanted with a mix of old and new as my budget allowed. I got TMCC after I got a great deal on a C&O Berkshire with TMCC. I upgraded to Command Control (TMCC) for my conventional (old) engines by purchasing the command base for conventional use with TMCC. I will be selling all that, now that I have Legacy (and I got that at a bargain price by waiting) and waiting for the the release (by Lionel) of the PowerBridge so I can run CC through Legacy. Oh, I also got a TPC 400 for $100...may be getting a used ZW with1 180w brick on the cheap as well.
Right now, I have 2 CW80's a LW & KW. KW sits (no room to put on the small 40 sq ft I run on), LW runs TMCC and very well, I might add. The LW runs the PS1 & PS2 MTH's I test, the CW's not so well.
I personally don't care for MTH (though I just got one.... CHEAP) for all the issues, but don't let that sway you. I have the reset chip and you can find it on line, got mine $25 and have personally reset 20-30 MTH engines with it.
Take your time, upgrade when you can or find a bargain, and you can always upgrade for the future, like I did. When the time comes for the BIG purchase, you'll have gotten all the sniggly little things needed to run it ahead of time.
If you are seriouly considering Atlas, don't accumilate so much Fastrak, that you can't get out of it. I LOVE the Atlas, but I have so much invested in Fastrak, I'm just staying with it.
I am closing a Train Store right now (owner passed away) so I have some insight on the business. Rest assured, there is always help right here.
Good Luck and welcome to the (O Gauge) Club!
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Sirjames ... you hit it right on the head ... but seems you got shot down . Oh well ... we can only advise ..... we did'nt think he got such a GOOD deal ... time will tell won't it .
Ole TimerSirjames ... you hit it right on the head ... but seems you got shot down . Oh well ... we can only advise ..... we did'nt think he got such a GOOD deal ... time will tell won't it .
I totally agree with you, Sir James, and Don, as you can see from my posts on this thread.
And I an not so sure Sir James got shot down. I noticed on one post Jeremy said "I'll be buying a MTH DCS as soon as I get the loco repaired or whatever it needs".
I hope he at least checks out one or two other dealers and talks to a few local toy train folks.
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