York-Yuck

[Buckeye Riveter]

When is the fall meet?

[jmpmap]

Well, I missed my first York Meet in almost 15 years. We recently moved outside of the "short drive distance", now requiring an overnight stay. I am suffering withdrawals.
I did order the name tag, as until the last minute, I thought I might go. I at least got to put the nametag on for a few minutes, just to ease the pain. It was not all bad though.
I was busy building the new garage layout.....can't wait until the Fall Meet.

[waltrapp]

Sorry Joe. I guess I let out some frustration that I'm having about these on-going "forum wars". I can't handle reading all of the negatism.

See you at York!!

- walt

[Buckeye Riveter]

Thanks Walt, Dave, Rat and Bill. After reading posts about York here on CTT and on OGR it is confusing. Needless to say there are positives and negatives written about it on both fourms.

I am thinking of attending maybe this fall. It would probably be an education to say the least. I've learned plenty from the local shows.

[Anonymous]

Walt, cool your jets!
I didn't say I ain't going, I just said there is too much yapping about it on OGR. Sandy and Hans are going with me. We'll see you at the OGR meeting.

pax[C):-)]

[Anonymous]

York makes me say "gee wiz" and "holy cow". It is that nifty. The previous 2 posts say it really well.

[Anonymous]

York is the World series of Train shows. I'm not really sure how you could even fathom offering up any any comment at all until you've been there. I can only attend the Friday
event but its still a full non stop 8 hour day of trains. As far as who is on the CTT forum
or OGR forum , I couldn't care less. You haven't been to a train show until you've been here
rat

[waltrapp]

Buckeye,

Even though I'm a long time OGR Forum member, I can say thatmost of us are not cynical and sarcastic that you're seeing on this forum from some ex- (or dual-) members. So let me try to help answer your question about York.

I've been there only 5 times but know enough about it that I think I can help some.

First off, the event is sponsored by the Eastern Division of TCA. You have to be a TCA member to get into the halls (there are anywhere from 5 to 8 HUGE halls). You can go as a guest of a member only one time.

The 'official' days at the York Fairgrounds for buying and selling are on Friday and Saturday. THis year that would be 4/16 and 4/17. However, there are non-sanctioned events that take place at locations other than the fairgrounds Monday thru Thursday. These are at various hotels, etc. and are called 'Bandit meets'. Anyone can attend these. People have been known to sell things directly from the trunk of their car at these bandit meets.

There are some events sponsored by TCA that do take place on days prior to Friday but I've never been to them so it wouldn't be fair for me to comment. I have heard that manufacturers give presentations and things like that. There is information about these available.

As for the fairground trading events, I can say in all honesty that I was totally blown away by the immenseness of the place. Imagine 8 LARGE warehouses stuffed with tables all holding train things - both old and new. Imagine 15,000 to 20,000 train nuts circulating around thru these buildings and tables!!!!

It's really a 'train show' - just a 'bit' bigger!! Like a thousand times so.

As for the OGR Forum sponsored event, I've been to every one of them. It was us forum members that first suggested we get together to meet each other. It was NOT an OGR 'sponsored' event. However, the fine folks at OGR offered to help lead the show instead of having us forum members just show up and stare at each other. It started off relatively small and has grown to where over 250 forum members attend. OGR is nice enough to get reps from each of the manufacturers to spend 5 minutes each and talk to the group and answer questions. Very special in my opinion. I think the manufacturers get something out of too, believe it or not. Many of the reps even knew some of the forum members.

THe buildings are given names of colors but are not actually painted those colors. I have no background why the names are as such. There is a large field with an oval track by one of the buildings - the 'Yellow' hall. That building is like an old high-school football stadium. There are bleachers, 'grandstand' if you will, with a large open area underneath. Except that large open area is enclosed and used to serve as the area where 'new' stuff was sold.

Some buildings are primarily 'new' stuff - like the 'Orange' Hall. Some buildings are primarily 'Old' stuff - like the 'Blue' or 'Silver' hall. The 'Orange' Hall is brand new in 2003 and it's also where the manufacturers set up displays and such. So you'll see MTH, Lionel, K-Line, Atlas O, etc. all in the same building. THere are also a lot of dealers in this building too.

Again, to eliminate the negative attitude shown on this forum in regard to York, I'll finish by saying that it is definitely a 'regular' person event. I'm a nobody in the hobby - heck, I only have a Christmas layout and am NOT a collector. I go just because I enjoy the day. I'm not pals with other hobbyists so that's not why I'm there either. Granted, many people that are friends do make specific plans with each other but I think that's "nice" and not something to make fun of.

Lastly, honestly :-): I'm amazed reading the comments from people that haven't been there and they're still negative!! I see some of these same people posting on the OGR Forum and they show the other side of their personality! Nothing like being 2-faced.

- Walt

[Anonymous]

Most of the guys at OGR forum just babble about York all of the time. Theres more to trains than York.

pax[4:-)]

[Anonymous]

Working on my 9 second GN........

[FJ and G]

A lot of York hype revolves around personality cults from fans of particular toy train company leaders; and also eager buyers who salivate over the latest expensive offerings. Toy train companies are more than happy to oblige.

If I ever go there, it will be to meet some of the ordinary people, and maybe pick up a modestly priced toy train, if there is such a thing.

dav

[Buckeye Riveter]

I'm getting more confused. [%-)][%-)][%-)] Remember I have never been there and just recently have heard about York.

I have been reading on the OGR forum several posts about York and the activities that take place. I would be hard pressed to tell you from my reading if the York show is a black-tie gala affair or the Ohio State Fair but it is certainly the event of the year to many people.

One item of interest is that OGR sponsors some type of meeting or dinner in the grandstands, that may not be a grandstand but a building painted one of several colors depending on which post you read. [%-)][%-)][%-)] They invite people to speak, but don't tell you who they are until ?????????????, but they are very special people you don't want to miss hearing.

[?][?][?] Do other orgainizations have meetings or dinners at York? Does CTT have a presentation that people attend? What is scrapple? (I kinda think that it is like pasties that you find in Michigan.) Has anyone here been asked to be a speaker by some organization?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Keep in mind that the TCA is a non profit organization, but everyone does love money. I would expect that most of the money raised goes into the cost of running the show. They do have a lot of expenses, especially renting the fairground's buildings where this is held. I heard that there were major renovations done there recently, which will only serve to raise the rent further.

As far as walking up to the door and getting in, I DON'T THINK SO. It has always been my understanding that this is a members only event, as is true with all TCA sanctioned events. There are some local groups that put on events that are not sanctioned by TCA, and then the public IS invited, however it is my understanding that York is not one of those.

The members often see non TCA events as an opportunity to expose the general public to the hobby, and get rid of their "junk" that the rest of the members have no interest in buying. Junk doesn't mean only bad stuff, but also nice common items, with little collectable value, as well.

Please don't take the view that York is for the members of an exclusive club, but rather a perk and a privelage of being a member of TCA. The TCA is always looking to expand its ranks. Maybe this helps to explain why "half" of Pennsylvania belongs to the TCA. [(-D][swg]

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: by Big Boy: The point that bothers me about the york "hype" is that the show is not 100% open to public. What kind of message does that send to the "average" train operator or future "collector"? If you don't belong to a certain club or group you are not welcome??? That is one fine way to certainly "unwelcome" anyone new to the hobby.

Now I am confused [%-)]

From what you good folks are saying, one just can't walk to this York fairgrounds, pay some money and get in the door. What must you do to get in? [?]

I think P.T. Barnam must run the publicity for this show because by making it exclusive, more people desire admission believing that there is a great "circus" inside those gates. I bet they make a ton of money doing it this way and thousands of cats are killed with curosity. [:-,]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Point well taken Ken, sorry. Its easy to forget that everyone here is not a member of TCA, and therefore is not invited to this "party", as it is a private function.

Then there are others like me, who for whatever reason ( the most common being money, time, and distance) toss their invitation in the trash. I have been getting them and tossing them for 22 years, that's 44 times, its becoming a habit.[swg]

[Anonymous]

The point that bothers me about the york "hype" is that the show is not 100% open to public. What kind of message does that send to the "average" train operator or future "collector"? If you don't belong to a certain club or group you are not welcome??? That is one fine way to certainly "unwelcome" anyone new to the hobby.

[Dave45681]

QUOTE: I see some discussion from time to time about
the idea of making some TCA meets (even York) open to the public.

The Atlantic division here in SE PA has been doing this for a while now. The first hour of the show is members only, but they admit the public an hour or so into it.

Many of brainelO27 ' s comments are right on the money. While York may not be the best example of a family friendly event, I think (hope?) at least some of the Mfr's are producing some product to promote that part of the hobby. There are at least 10-12 low to mid range sets in the most recent catalog from the Lion. Many are less than $300 with Track and Transformer included. If "York" was the only train show in the area, for the entire year, I would agree that it is hurting things, but there are other train shows held at the fairgrounds throughout the year(I believe at least Greenberg is there from time to time)

The worst part I see about York is the latest (2-3 years now I believe) "pay as you go" idea they adopted for the restroom attendants. I for one would be all for them raising the member admission by an additional $5 to eliminate this. I don't envy those who bring their wives and have to explain the "tip" scenario in the restrooms.

I do attend York each meet, but for me it's only a 2 hour drive away and 2 hotel nites to go to the TCA Museum on Thursday and the show on Fri/Sat. I am sure I would not be at many (any?) if I lived 500-3000 miles away.

True not all deals are great, but occasionally you are pleasantly surprised. A while back I was completing my 90's era Lionel Disney collection, and I was looking at the DisneyLand 35th anniversary General. The gentleman who sold it to me threw in an old AMT/Kusan Disneyland car from I believe 1972. One other time I purchased a rare variation (was looking for the standard car) without even realizing what I was getting. The reason I jumped at it was that it was priced less than the standard car was available for. (I certainly didn't mind still needing the regular verson that time! [:)]

Anyone who does decide to attend, hope to seee you there.[:D]

[waltrapp]

Even though I've been reading, I wasn't going to jump in due to the attitude taken by the starter of this thread. I'm glad to see that the thread has come around to a more reasonable type of conversation.

My attitude may be parochial since I live only 4 1/2 hours from York and find it an easy same-day drive to and back. Maybe it will become boring and routine some day but it hasn't come close to that yet.

I think the 2 things that make it such a pleasant Friday for me are:

1) It's so cool to hang out with 20,000 train nuts just like you! Even if I don't talk to any of them, and I usually don't since I don't know anybody, just hanging in that atmosphere and soaking it all up "makes my day".

2) I only attend Friday so I don't get to sit in on the manufacturer's presentations on the days prior. But I do attend the Friday afternoon session hosted by OGR in the bleachers (sorry guys but they are the ones hosting it) where ALL of the major players in the game come and give a little talk. I really enjoy that they take the time to talk to us.

There are other reasons that I enjoy the day but you can see that 'buying' doesn't make the top 2 for me. Whether I buy things or not, and I do buy things sometimes but not always, makes no difference in me enjoying the day.

- walt

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bermuda ken

I too have always wondered why this "york" seems to have a kung-fu grip on train collectors and the oems. Its just a train show. Sure you can meet people from all over the world (you can do that at ANY show too) but why do the oems' get so bent on making this thier private show place?

Train collectors/operators live in more places than just the east coast. When was the last time the brand K, L, A, or M setup up thier mega display at a midwest, south or western show?? I guess that since most of them are based on the east coast its easy to hype the show closest to them to keep the travel expenditures low.

To me, all of this hype over "york" only helps to stigmatize the hobby as being an "east coast only" thing.

Oh be careful Ken, saying that York "is just (another) train show", is like telling a member of the Islamic community that Mecca is just another town. If the TCA had been founded in Chicago we wouldn't be having this discussion, we would be among the faithful making the twice yearly pilgrimage to buy trains.

Presonally, I hope we can get this whole York thing behind us, so that we don't have to repeat it six months from now. It certainly is a train related topic, and we can't pretend that it doesn't exist. The truth is that using the forum to talk about train shows that happen in any location doesn't really make much sense, since for the most part our members live all over the country.

Granted that York is bigger than most TCA national conventions, but I would think that more members don't go than do, to any given show. However the total percentage of members who have attended at least once may be over 50%.

[Anonymous]

I too have always wondered why this "york" seems to have a kung-fu grip on train collectors and the oems. Its just a train show. Sure you can meet people from all over the world (you can do that at ANY show too) but why do the oems' get so bent on making this thier private show place?

Train collectors/operators live in more places than just the east coast. When was the last time the brand K, L, A, or M setup up thier mega display at a midwest, south or western show?? I guess that since most of them are based on the east coast its easy to hype the show closest to them to keep the travel expenditures low.

To me, all of this hype over "york" only helps to stigmatize the hobby as being an "east coast only" thing.

[Anonymous]

I guess I would put myself in the window shopping catagory at York at this stage in my life also. I like to go for the experience of seeing everything and everyone connected with it. The only problem I have is it's too far away for me to go very often. I have never considered myself a collector. I have always been more interested in operating so finding the "rare piece" to me is not a high priority. I used to buy Lionel collectable pieces in the beginning because back then it was the only way you could get a road name you wanted for operating. The fact that it was collectable just made it more expensive. Fortunately today we have all kinds of choices at more reasonable prices. I can buy what I need just about anywhere. I don't have to go to York to get it. Therefore, the only reason I go is for the social aspect of it.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Also at York is an area for small children (and "big children") to enjoy themselves
while the adults go to the dealers and act like children.

Well now maybe I can go. [8)][:)]

[FJ and G]

ches,

You are the first person I've heard say they "window shop" there.

Maybe I should go there after all

dav

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't say that the subject of this post necessarily says it best for all train enthusiasts. The TCA show at York, PA. is a large event and has through the years seems to have brought out the best and the worse that the hobby has had to offer. I would say the the prices there are no where near the best that you can find. However, if you are looking for something rare in the way of trains or parts, you are bound to find it at York. You can also find many vendors at York that don't come to many meets and sell unusual items like scratchbuilding supplies and scenery. Like it or not, York is a unique event and I would say that it does cater somewhat to the collector with very deep pockets.

[Anonymous]

Brianel;

You have pretty much nailed it on the head about York. However, to be fair, TCA
has seen their (our?) own mortality and recently began the TCA "Kids Club" in
order to try to encourage younger members to join and help promote the hobby.
Also at York is an area for small children (and "big children") to enjoy themselves
while the adults go to the dealers and act like children. [:D] I take it by the fact that
you say that you are a repeat visitor to York that you are a TCA member so, yes,
you get to see the changes in the hobby over the years. As for TCA being less
toy trains oriented, I think I'll sit on the fence with this one. Yes TCA does praise
SOME of the newer offerings, but they still promote tinplate quite a lot. Look at
the articles in the TCA Quarterly for example.

As for TCA being a closed society, I see some discussion from time to time about
the idea of making some TCA meets (even York) open to the public. I believe
the reason for the meets being closed has something to do with the TCA charter
and its standing with IRS concerning its non-profit status under tax law. You
might want to inquire with the TCA main office in Penna. They can give an expert
answer on this.

As for the Gawd-awful high prices at York, well buddy, that's just plain old fashioned
GREED! That's why I just go to "window shop". I've noticed that over the past 10
years or so the wallets don't come out as much and as fast as they used to. Many
times I have seen the same nasty overpriced items show up year after year, but
the "collectors" (wannabe dealers/investors) don't make that "killing" and it gets
packed up and hauled back home again. Some of those toy trains have more
mileage on 'em than the real ones and that's just from travelling from show to
show! ;)

As I've said before, I usually see these same "collecors" at other smaller shows
and their things are priced more reasonable, so I just do that. I think York is
kind of like "Oz". It's a fantasy trip that most people just enjoy for the experience.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: And it's not really a kid-friendly show either.

Well, as you can see, I guess I won't be able to go. [:(][:(][:(][:(][:(][:(] I wonder if Grandpa would take me?

[brianel027]

If you've never been to YORK, you should at least go once. It is pretty amazing the first time. The few times I've been, I've always found a bargain or two. Plus you do see things you tend not to see everyday. And there have been times when the dealers were offering deals before I even expressed interest. Of course, there is the "collector frenzy" and the dealers with high prices. But there's so many dealers, you can just walk on to the next several hundred.

The thing that bugs me is that all the mfgers. will be there taking notes, so they can say they listen to what folks want. Which is fine. But when you talk about 027 stuff or stater set / beginner stuff, you get the line "well, that's not what folks are asking for."
Duh! No kidding.
Not when you go to a show where the public isn't welcome and where the people you talk to are die-hard train guys who are mostly over 50 years old. And it's not really a kid-friendly show either.

And you can bet that if Lionel has their display layout, they won't be running "The Pennsy Flyer Set" or the "Southern Diesel Freight Set." Nor will K-Line be running the "Construction Set." Even though they should.

And if they do run those sets, they best bring plenty of earplugs 'cause they'll likely hear about it! And not from the "ever-elusive target consumer pair – the little boy and his dad." Because this is not your everyday kind of train show where the "ever-elusive target consumer pair – the little boy and his dad" will just show up.

They can all talk about getting kids back into the hobby, but that's all it is. Talk. Because they don't want to make the effort to do anything about it. Pure and simple. Need proof. Go to YORK.

In my opinion they all deserve to get headaches - hearing at extended length about every single unusual oddball prototype scale item that should be made ... about how the last prototypical item only fair because it was missing a couple of rivets ... about every single failed electronic-loaded engine that won't run and wouldn't run from the start ... about every single advertised-as-scale item that isn't really scale... about every single cancelled catalog item ... about every single value-added dealer who can't make ends meet because the large mailorder places get favored treatment ... about every missed delivery date ...

They've brought it on to themselves.

[Anonymous]

I wonder when they started calling it Spring Cal-Stewart Meet? I thought it was Nor-Cal but I see that's the way they head it up on the registration form. They do say Nor-Cal on the bottom of the folder. I've only been there once but would'nt mind going again. The last time I went California had the flood of the century in that area. We drove up from LA on Interstate 5 but had to come back on 99 because the road washed out.

[Frank in Steam]

When I go to York, I go with a short list of things to find that I have not seen at the local shows and dealers. I don't do e bay. The opportunity to get together with folks who have moved is always wonderful. I really enjoy being able to speak with the manufacturers. Of course I always find one or two things that I just can't resist at the price = so much for the 'everything is high priced there crowd', and a ton of things that are at good prices and tempting, but I just resist. Amongst the club members we always chuckle with glee at a new member's first York = make sure that you bring along a trailer to haul your stuff home.

I just can't get the combination of train social, sales extravaganza and happening anywhere else.