Postwar ZW question

[Deputy]

Just got my ZW from Ebay. I was wondering...how loud are these things supposed to hum? Maybe I'm just spoiled by the Z-4000, but this thing seems awfully loud. I checked volts on each terminal and it's pretty much 20-20.5 all the way across. The right handle definitely needs a new carbon roller. And someone replaced the cord with a new one that has the wide prong on one side. That has to go. No damage or cracks on the case. I cleaned it up and it looks to be in great shape. I thought it would be heavier than what it is. Heck, the Z-4000 needs a forklift to luck it around The ZW seems to be half it's weight. Anyway, for $100 I think I got a good deal

[ChiefEagles]

I have one that hums some and 4 that do not.  Got 3 KW's and one buzzes up a storm.  Get the roller installed.  If you do it, when you brad the "shaft", put a paper parts tag between the roller and the arm.  This will give clearance so the roller will roll.  Don't want it binding and ruin your windings.  Another tip, check the polarity with the rest of your transformers.  If it matches them, leave the plug.  I've done that to almost all of my transformers.  That way I can not plug them in wrong.  Another hint form Bob Nelson that is the best, replace the Lionel breaker with an automotive type resetting breaker.  I use a 15 amp for a ZW.  Car Quest is the best place to get one that high of amperage.  They will have blades under them.  Get a fuse holder for blade type fuses and insert.  Solder in place of Lionel breaker.  Good luck.  

[chuck]

Unless the unit was dropped at some point in time with the result being the laminated stack is loose or the coils relative to the stack are loose the unit's hum is fairly low. 

To assess the relative size and weight of a PW ZW and a Z-4000 you need to address the power handling capabilites of the two devices.  The total output available on all four channels of the pw ZW is only equal to the output of one channel on the 4000.

[Chris F]

Very often the hum is due to loose laminations.  Check this link - http://www.tranz4mr.com/site/ZW_Page/Pages/ZW_Hum_Fix.html

[Deputy]

Good grief....now I have to worry if I got a 250 or 275 watt transformer.

Can anyone tell from these internal pics if it's a 250 or 275? That link wasn't clear at all.

[ben10ben]

Dep,

Yours is definitely a later "Type R" ZW. 

Notice how neat the end of the coil laminations are. If you had a 250watt Z, or a non-R 275 watt ZW(which do exist, despite what the othewise excellent posted link would have you believe), the coil looks significantly different. 

Here's a picture of my non-R 275 watt ZW for comparison

By the way, both of my ZWs are nearly dead silent. I have not personally tried the fix posted, as I have not needed to. I have no doubt, based on the evidence I've seen, that it will work. 

 

[Deputy]

Thanks for the info Ben. I was in worry mode for a while thinking I got it so cheap because it wasn't a 275 watt version. I owe you

I know a place that does really good rebuilds on postwar transformers at reasonable prices:
http://www.lioneltransformer.com/

I got my rebuilt KW there and they did an outstanding job. There's a bunch of stuff I want done to this one and I trust this place to do a good job. I want the cord changed, all new terminal screws,16 amp diodes, transparent red and green lenses, and a complete rehab of the internals. Their prices are reasonable and I can get a repro box and instructions from them too.
When they get done it will be as close as I can get to brand new.

I also located the volt/amp gauge accessory (Lionel 6-14077) and I'm ordering it tomorrow. I got it for $99. Regular price is $125. I looked all over Ebay but only found ones for the new ZW...nothing for postwar. Finally found a place online that had one brand new one still in the box for postwar ZW.

[lionel2]

on my layout I am running (2) Z's and ZW and a KW.  My Z's humm very loud.  My ZW and KW are near silent. 

[Kooljock1]

Deputy,

Nobody should panic when receiving a 250 watt ZW. They actually put out as much as, or more wattage as the later 275 watt ZW. But this is short term. As their stack is designed differently, they tend to warm up a little quicker than the later model, incurring a little output loss.

But side by side, they are very much in the same ballpark in overall output. Remember that in those days output was measured differently, and that today's transformers are measured by what they're capable of under load.

I have an early "250 watt" ZW, and it works just great. And I did send it to North Carolina for rebuild, and they did a WONDERFUL job!

Jon

[ChiefEagles]

Come on guys.  Those ZW's are the easiest things to rebuild.  Love working on them.  Dep, probably all you need is a roller.  Then replace the breaker as I said above.  Bob Nelson is the best info on electronics with these things.  He was right on when he told me about breaker replacement.  Works faster.  Now I use one each to power each mainline and one for sidings.  I do run them through fast acting breakers too.  Modern electronic in engines need this protection.  For lights, switches and etc, the automotive breakers are fine.

[sir james I]

Before you install the volt/amp meter, remove and charge the battery. The power will not go through the meter to the track if the battery is low. Once installed on the ZW you have to remove all the wires to get at the battery. I got tired of doing this and just took it off. Its in the box somewhere. The battery will charge whenever the ZW is being used however. I just didn't use it enough.

[Deputy]

Jon: I was more concerned about getting ripped off because the transformer was advertised as a 275 watt and not a 250 watt. They do sell 250 watt transformers on Ebay, and they go for considerably less than the 275 watt versions. Even though, as you say, there isn't much difference.

Chief: I tend to let experts in each field do their thing. I am sure no expert on rebuilding transformers. If there was something faulty with it that you could tell by looking at it, I wouldn't be able to spot it. I also don't have the high end test gauges nor do I know how to read them to tell if an electrical problem exists. This place in SC also installs the rollers with an arbor press, which is the way Lionel originally installed them. With something like this I'm just more comfortable having someone who has specialized in doing this for over 20 years.
Or as Dirty Harry says..."a man has to know his limitations".

Sir James: Thanks for that info. I didn't even know that gauge setup was battery operated. I figured it just ran off the current of the transformer. What kind of battery is installed in it? Nicad or Nimh?

Dep

[sir james I]

Deputy, I'm not sure anymore,when I got tired of the MTH battery thing I replaced them all with BCRs and they are all in a bag. It is the 9 volt type battery though. And since that item has been sitting for several years now I would guess the battery would be low or even dead. I have no idea if a BCR would work in the meter so DON'T DO THAT.

[Deputy]

Deputy, I'm not sure anymore,when I got tired of the MTH battery thing I replaced them all with BCRs and they are all in a bag. It is the 9 volt type battery though. And since that item has been sitting for several years now I would guess the battery would be low or even dead. I have no idea if a BCR would work in the meter so DON'T DO THAT.

LOL...no sweat on the BCR thing. I suppose there might be some way of wiring up a battery charger to charge the battery while the gauges are still in place. I bet someone has already thought of that by now

[Deputy]

Got my gauge gizmo for the ZW transformer today. Unfortunately, I also boxed up my ZW for shipping tomorrow to have it rebuilt. So I didn't get to test it out. I saw the thing about the battery in the gauge system in the instruction manual. But all it said was that if the battery was low or going bad, it would give inaccurate readings. Nothing about the transformer being disabled if the battery went dead. I want to replace the Nicad battery with a NiMh battery. I was a bit concerned because most of the NiMh batteries have higher Milliamp hour ratings than the Nicad that is installed (160mAh). I did some online research and found this out: 

Milliamp Hour (mAh)

Milliamps Hour (mAh) is important because it's the easiest way to distinguish the strength or capacity of a battery. The higher the mAh, the longer the battery will last. Batteries with different mAh ratings are interchangeable. If your battery is rechargeable then the mAh rating is how long the battery will last per charge.

Milliamps Hour is 1/1000th of a Amp Hour, so a 1000mAh = 1.0Ah

Think of a cars gas tank.  Voltage is how much gas is being used, and mAh is the size of the gas tank.  The bigger the gas tank (mAh) rating the longer the device will run. If your battery is rechargeable, then think of the gas tank as refillable (rechargeable).
------------------------------------------------
So I found a 9-volt NiMh battery with 250mAh rating!!!
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1995

The BCR idea is interesting, though. I may e-mail J & W and ask them if the BCR is useable for this installation. If it is, that would be VERY cool

Sir James: If your have one of these volt/amp gauges and it's for a postwar ZW (not a NEW ZW), I would be interested in taking it off your hands. Let me know.

[lionelsoni]

It's not strictly true that you can interchange rechargeable batteries of different capacities.  The problem is the rate of charge:  A battery smaller than the design calls for may be recharged at a higher rate than it can safely withstand.  That may not be a problem in your case, since you replaced a battery with a larger one.  But it is something to be aware of in swapping out batteries.

[Deputy]

Hey Bob....any ideas about using a BCR device to replace the battery so I don't have to fiddle around with charging/replacing batteries any more? I'm e-mailing J&W to ask them, but I want to make sure I don't destroy the gauge setup or do any other serious damage using the BCR.

Dep

[lionelsoni]

I wouldn't venture a guess--don't know enough about the transformer or the BCR.

[Deputy]

I heard from J&W Electronics tonight. Kudos to them for the quick and honest reply. Also thanks to Bob for the same reply:

Mike,
  What a good question. I have not tested the BCR in that application. I mainly work on MTH products. I don't see why it would not work. My only concern would be that if the track power is off for a long time the BCR will discharge and the display would go off, until the track power is turned on again. I am not sure how long it would be  It might be an acceptable time. I do have access to a ZW with a volt meter. I will give it a try and let you know.
                Wayne Renga
                J and W Electronics

I'll let you know what their test results are. If it works, I'll be calling them up to order one immediately.
I went to the Lionel website and got a pdf copy of the owner's manual and sent it to Mr. Renga. My main concern is I don't want to damage the gauge. It's an expensive part ($125 retail) and almost impossible to locate for the postwar ZW.

Dep

[sir james I]

Deputy, you have a private message,  S.J.

[Deputy]

SJ: I sent a reply.

[tranz4mr]

Deputy,

Nobody should panic when receiving a 250 watt ZW. They actually put out as much as, or more wattage as the later 275 watt ZW. But this is short term. As their stack is designed differently, they tend to warm up a little quicker than the later model, incurring a little output loss.

But side by side, they are very much in the same ballpark in overall output. Remember that in those days output was measured differently, and that today's transformers are measured by what they're capable of under load.

I have an early "250 watt" ZW, and it works just great. And I did send it to North Carolina for rebuild, and they did a WONDERFUL job!

Jon

I tested this and found came to the same conclusion as Jon.

Check it out at 

http://www.tranz4mr.com/site/ZW_Page/Pages/ZW_250_vs._ZW_275.html

 

[Deputy]

There's just one flaw in that article:

"The ZW 250 is much cheaper though. It makes the choice a little more difficult doesn't it?"

Originally I said that the ZW250 cost less than the ZW275 on Ebay. That turns out to be incorrect. The fact is the ZW 250 cost just as much as a ZW275 if you check the current Ebay prices. So the secret is out about them being pretty much equal in power. If I found out that the ZW I bought was a ZW250, I still would have got a refund, though. It was advertised as a 275 and that's what I wanted. Doesn't matter if they are the same power. If it had an outer case that was switched from a 250 to a 275, then that is false advertising and misrepresentation. I don't care if the ZW250 tested out at twice the output voltage of a ZW275. When I buy something I want to get exactly what I pay for, nothing more and nothing less.

Dep

[tranz4mr]

ZW 275's at our shows go for at least 25% more than a ZW 250 unless of course you can find one with the dreaded ZW275 buzz. Then all bets are off.

[Deputy]

I'd buy a buzzing/humming ZW275 at a good price in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact, mine had a pretty loud hum and I let my repair guy know about it. He said "Could be a damaged coil and I can fix it better than new.  I actually re-glue the lamination back together."

[tranz4mr]

I figured out the Buzz thing too. Takes about 15 minutes or so after you fix a few. One of these days I'll update my website with some better photos videos and sound. Those are from several years ago when I first figured out the whole ZW buzz thing. I found another one recently for $20 on Craigs list from a local TCA guy. Recently I repaired 4 ZW 275's for a TCA member and 2 of the 275s had Type R covers with ZW 250 cores.

[ben10ben]

One side note:

What Tranz4mr's excellent article refers to as being a 275 watt ZW is more properly know as the ZW Type R. The Type Rs have the riveted coil stack. 

In about 1950, the ZW suddenly received an upgrade from 250 watts to 275 watts. When this happened the only thing that changed was the badge on the outside. In fact, the first 275 watt ZWs had small top emblem with a back badge(see photo of one of my personal ZWs).

The 275watt ZW, was changed over to the large top badge shortly thereafter, but with still no internal changes. 

It was not until 1955 or thereabouts, I believe, that the type R core was introduced. 

This means that there were a full five years or so of ZWs produced by the factory which were labeled as 275 watt models, but contained the old style stacked core. 

So, the point is:

1. The lack of a type R core in a 275 watt ZW doesn't necessarily mean any dishonesty on the part of the seller or anyone else somewhere along the line

2. Perhaps more importantly: All type R ZWs are marked as such on the bottom plate with a white rubber stamp. This is the most reliable way to determine which type of ZW core you're getting without actually seeing the core. Reputable sellers on Ebay will show a picture of the bottom plate, or will at least will specifically state in the description that a ZW is a type R. Other sellers may not know, so I suggest that you always ask before bidding(a good rule in general). Of course, you can always also ask for a picture of the core, which, again, a reputable seller should have no problem supplying.

By the way, I would personally not split hairs over which type I was buying. I have both a type R and non-type R transformer on my layout, and use them interchangeably. My layout's set up using block control, so I can use either transformer to power any part of the layout I wish. 

[tranz4mr]

Ben is correct except that the Type R also has an 18 volt bulb instead of 6 volt as well as a few other minor changes. The 250's are usually louder but not as loud as a bad riveted core. In my tests the 250's run hotter under continuous heavy load which most people never do anyway. If the normal hum noise of a 250 bugs you it isn't easy to fix. The riveted core is easy to fix and is virtually silent. Either way you get 180 watts to the track. Not much by todays standards.

[Deputy]

Ben and Kent: Good info. Thanks! Just a couple of side notes...I've still been tracking a bunch of ZWs for sale on Ebay. Very rarely does anyone mention it being a Type R. Some people do ask if there is anything stamped on the underneath. But a lot of these transformers have heavy wear and rust on the base plate, so it is tough to find one with Type R stamped on it. On the other hand, I might be a bit worried about fake Type R stamps. As you know, there are repro stamps for cab numers on locos. I wouldn't put it past someone to have a repro stamp made for the Type R emblem. Plus a lot of transformer rebuilders repaint the bottom plate. Davis Lyons, the guy in NC that does my rebuilding, does that for every transformer he rebuilds. He uses a rust-resistant paint to help prevent future corrosion. So even if I had a R stamp on mine, which I didn't, it would be gone when I get it back from it's rebuild.
I agree that the wrong core doesn't show intentional dishonesty. Heck, you can almost build a repro ZW just from parts nowadays. And just about everything for sale on Ebay today has the "dummy disclaimer" (I can't test this/I don't know what it does/I don't know anything about this item/etc), so it's nearly impossible to prove intent. Especially if it is marked externally with a 275 watt emblem. However, if you did buy a 275 watt transformer and ended up with a 250 watt one, you would still have a legitimate complaint against the seller if it was listed as 275 watt. Also, the majority of pics are of the external parts. Mine was one of the few that shows internals. I dunno how many folks would be willing to take it apart to show core pics. If they posted the dummy disclaimer, I doubt they would do it. Cripes...some sellers only post ONE blurry photo and thats it!!!
The ZW I have will be used for powering accessories on the permanent layout. My KW will get the call for the under-the-tree layout. For track power when I build the permanent layout, it will be a Z-4000.

Thanks to both of you guys for all the info on the ZW. Lots of stuff I bet a lot of people didn't know  

Dep

 

[tranz4mr]

KW's have the same issues. Riveted vs layered cores. Does anyone knowif there is a way to tell the difference without opening them up?