Postwar ZW question

[Deputy]

Good luck with finding one. The ones for the newer ZW are still available. The ones for the postwar ZW are as scarce as hens teeth and VERY pricey if you find one.

[KRM]

Deputy

  

Chief: The part number Kev is referring to is a voltmeter made by Lionel that mounts on the older ZW transformers. It's not a locomotive or MTH product.

Yes if it would work in the ZW voltmeter I thought it would be a nice addition for the ZW I got from you Chief in the future. I saw in the thread that they work in the MTH . Where do you get one of them?

Thanks,

Kev.

[Deputy]

Hi Chief. If you don't count a recent attack of a kidney stone, I am doing well.

[ChiefEagles]

Hi Dep.  Hope all is well with you.

[Deputy]

Kev,
       What Chief said is basically correct. Just apply power and it should start working fairly quickly.

 

Chief: The part number Kev is referring to is a voltmeter made by Lionel that mounts on the older ZW transformers. It's not a locomotive or MTH product.

[ChiefEagles]

KEV, they will work in place of the MTH battery,  You just have to let them "recharge" for several seconds before runing your engine.  Apply track power, I usually wait about 30 seconds to be sure, then fire her up.

[KRM]

Deputy

I heard from J&W Electronics tonight. Kudos to them for the quick and honest reply. 

Mike,
  What a good question. I have not tested the BCR in that application. I mainly work on MTH products. I don't see why it would not work. My only concern would be that if the track power is off for a long time the BCR will discharge and the display would go off, until the track power is turned on again. I am not sure how long it would be  It might be an acceptable time. I do have access to a ZW with a volt meter. I will give it a try and let you know.
                Wayne Renga
                J and W Electronics

 

 

Mike,

 I know this is an old post but did you ever find out if a BCR would work in the 6-14077?

 Tks,

 kev.

[ben10ben]

My ZW's are not really such that I can physically place them right beside each other without undoing all the wiring(mine are the only power source I use).

I will, however, offer these "file photos", one of which I've already posted, which show the difference. 

Type R(notice how clean and sharp the edges of the laminations are)

Non-R(note how messy and uneven the end of the laminations looks)

The rivets are not visible from this view-I'll see if I can get a picture of those later. 

I no longer have a KW, but I did take pictures of the insides when I sold it on Ebay. I'll see if I can locate them. My KW was also a type R. 

By the way, Kent, let me also personally thank you for the excellent resource that your website is. 

 

[Deputy]

I understand Kent. My "to do" list always seems to be getting bigger than my available time. Your website is a valuable source of info and worth bookmarking.  

[tranz4mr]

Hmmmm...just spotted a KW transformer on Ebay with this description:

"On the bottom base, it reads MODEL KW (R)."

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-Mult-Control-Transformer-KW-190-Watts-MODEL-R_W0QQitemZ250305468323QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250305468323&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Well there you go. They are marked.

On your other post about the core photos I have taken a lot of new photos recently of the whole "rebuild a ZW thing" but it will take some time to get down that far on my todo list. Running the local Holiday Train show and doing the division secretarial thing keeps me pretty busy. Add work & kids above that too.

[Deputy]

Now if you really wanted to rip somebody off on Ebay, there is always the Lionel VW transformer. Just remove the side label or replace the upper cover with a repro, and instant ZW. Only thing is the VW only has 150 watts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lionel-VW-Trainmaster-Transformer-NMIB-150-Watt_W0QQitemZ270285075128QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item270285075128&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[Deputy]

Hmmmm...just spotted a KW transformer on Ebay with this description:

"On the bottom base, it reads MODEL KW (R)."

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-Mult-Control-Transformer-KW-190-Watts-MODEL-R_W0QQitemZ250305468323QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250305468323&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

[Deputy]

I updated my website & drawings to reflect Bens ZW 275 type R info above.

http://www.Tranz4mr.com

Kent: What I would like to see is a side-by-side comparison in the same photo of a R and non-R type transformer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but looking at a pic like I posted on the first page, those rivets aren't visible with the core in the case. I certainly see the difference Ben mentions in the laminations. Perhaps a side-by-side pic of the laminations in Ben's non-R transformer and mine would be more valuable for the average guy to know immediately if he has a Type R or not? And have arrows pointing to the laminations in each transformer.
Just a thought.

 

[tranz4mr]

I updated my website & drawings to reflect Bens ZW 275 type R info above.

http://www.Tranz4mr.com

[tranz4mr]

They do have the same 140 watt power output but they were made with different core contructions making one potentially quieter than another. This isn't shown in the repair manuals like the ZW's are. Recently I rebuilt four of these and was surprised to see the difference.

[Deputy]

Mine was rebuilt by Davis Lyons and is quieter than my Z-4000. I've never seen any KW transformers with anything but 190 watts listed. According to this website, there are no variations:
http://www.postwarlionel.com/cgi-bin/postwar?ITEM=KW

[tranz4mr]

KW's have the same issues. Riveted vs layered cores. Does anyone knowif there is a way to tell the difference without opening them up?

[Deputy]

Ben and Kent: Good info. Thanks! Just a couple of side notes...I've still been tracking a bunch of ZWs for sale on Ebay. Very rarely does anyone mention it being a Type R. Some people do ask if there is anything stamped on the underneath. But a lot of these transformers have heavy wear and rust on the base plate, so it is tough to find one with Type R stamped on it. On the other hand, I might be a bit worried about fake Type R stamps. As you know, there are repro stamps for cab numers on locos. I wouldn't put it past someone to have a repro stamp made for the Type R emblem. Plus a lot of transformer rebuilders repaint the bottom plate. Davis Lyons, the guy in NC that does my rebuilding, does that for every transformer he rebuilds. He uses a rust-resistant paint to help prevent future corrosion. So even if I had a R stamp on mine, which I didn't, it would be gone when I get it back from it's rebuild.
I agree that the wrong core doesn't show intentional dishonesty. Heck, you can almost build a repro ZW just from parts nowadays. And just about everything for sale on Ebay today has the "dummy disclaimer" (I can't test this/I don't know what it does/I don't know anything about this item/etc), so it's nearly impossible to prove intent. Especially if it is marked externally with a 275 watt emblem. However, if you did buy a 275 watt transformer and ended up with a 250 watt one, you would still have a legitimate complaint against the seller if it was listed as 275 watt. Also, the majority of pics are of the external parts. Mine was one of the few that shows internals. I dunno how many folks would be willing to take it apart to show core pics. If they posted the dummy disclaimer, I doubt they would do it. Cripes...some sellers only post ONE blurry photo and thats it!!!
The ZW I have will be used for powering accessories on the permanent layout. My KW will get the call for the under-the-tree layout. For track power when I build the permanent layout, it will be a Z-4000.

Thanks to both of you guys for all the info on the ZW. Lots of stuff I bet a lot of people didn't know  

Dep

 

[tranz4mr]

Ben is correct except that the Type R also has an 18 volt bulb instead of 6 volt as well as a few other minor changes. The 250's are usually louder but not as loud as a bad riveted core. In my tests the 250's run hotter under continuous heavy load which most people never do anyway. If the normal hum noise of a 250 bugs you it isn't easy to fix. The riveted core is easy to fix and is virtually silent. Either way you get 180 watts to the track. Not much by todays standards.

[ben10ben]

One side note:

What Tranz4mr's excellent article refers to as being a 275 watt ZW is more properly know as the ZW Type R. The Type Rs have the riveted coil stack. 

In about 1950, the ZW suddenly received an upgrade from 250 watts to 275 watts. When this happened the only thing that changed was the badge on the outside. In fact, the first 275 watt ZWs had small top emblem with a back badge(see photo of one of my personal ZWs).

The 275watt ZW, was changed over to the large top badge shortly thereafter, but with still no internal changes. 

It was not until 1955 or thereabouts, I believe, that the type R core was introduced. 

This means that there were a full five years or so of ZWs produced by the factory which were labeled as 275 watt models, but contained the old style stacked core. 

So, the point is:

1. The lack of a type R core in a 275 watt ZW doesn't necessarily mean any dishonesty on the part of the seller or anyone else somewhere along the line

2. Perhaps more importantly: All type R ZWs are marked as such on the bottom plate with a white rubber stamp. This is the most reliable way to determine which type of ZW core you're getting without actually seeing the core. Reputable sellers on Ebay will show a picture of the bottom plate, or will at least will specifically state in the description that a ZW is a type R. Other sellers may not know, so I suggest that you always ask before bidding(a good rule in general). Of course, you can always also ask for a picture of the core, which, again, a reputable seller should have no problem supplying.

By the way, I would personally not split hairs over which type I was buying. I have both a type R and non-type R transformer on my layout, and use them interchangeably. My layout's set up using block control, so I can use either transformer to power any part of the layout I wish. 

[tranz4mr]

I figured out the Buzz thing too. Takes about 15 minutes or so after you fix a few. One of these days I'll update my website with some better photos videos and sound. Those are from several years ago when I first figured out the whole ZW buzz thing. I found another one recently for $20 on Craigs list from a local TCA guy. Recently I repaired 4 ZW 275's for a TCA member and 2 of the 275s had Type R covers with ZW 250 cores.

[Deputy]

I'd buy a buzzing/humming ZW275 at a good price in a heartbeat. As a matter of fact, mine had a pretty loud hum and I let my repair guy know about it. He said "Could be a damaged coil and I can fix it better than new.  I actually re-glue the lamination back together."

[tranz4mr]

ZW 275's at our shows go for at least 25% more than a ZW 250 unless of course you can find one with the dreaded ZW275 buzz. Then all bets are off.

[Deputy]

There's just one flaw in that article:

"The ZW 250 is much cheaper though. It makes the choice a little more difficult doesn't it?"

Originally I said that the ZW250 cost less than the ZW275 on Ebay. That turns out to be incorrect. The fact is the ZW 250 cost just as much as a ZW275 if you check the current Ebay prices. So the secret is out about them being pretty much equal in power. If I found out that the ZW I bought was a ZW250, I still would have got a refund, though. It was advertised as a 275 and that's what I wanted. Doesn't matter if they are the same power. If it had an outer case that was switched from a 250 to a 275, then that is false advertising and misrepresentation. I don't care if the ZW250 tested out at twice the output voltage of a ZW275. When I buy something I want to get exactly what I pay for, nothing more and nothing less.

Dep

[tranz4mr]

Deputy,

Nobody should panic when receiving a 250 watt ZW. They actually put out as much as, or more wattage as the later 275 watt ZW. But this is short term. As their stack is designed differently, they tend to warm up a little quicker than the later model, incurring a little output loss.

But side by side, they are very much in the same ballpark in overall output. Remember that in those days output was measured differently, and that today's transformers are measured by what they're capable of under load.

I have an early "250 watt" ZW, and it works just great. And I did send it to North Carolina for rebuild, and they did a WONDERFUL job!

Jon

I tested this and found came to the same conclusion as Jon.

Check it out at 

http://www.tranz4mr.com/site/ZW_Page/Pages/ZW_250_vs._ZW_275.html

 

[Deputy]

SJ: I sent a reply.

[sir james I]

Deputy, you have a private message,  S.J.

[Deputy]

I heard from J&W Electronics tonight. Kudos to them for the quick and honest reply. Also thanks to Bob for the same reply:

Mike,
  What a good question. I have not tested the BCR in that application. I mainly work on MTH products. I don't see why it would not work. My only concern would be that if the track power is off for a long time the BCR will discharge and the display would go off, until the track power is turned on again. I am not sure how long it would be  It might be an acceptable time. I do have access to a ZW with a volt meter. I will give it a try and let you know.
                Wayne Renga
                J and W Electronics

I'll let you know what their test results are. If it works, I'll be calling them up to order one immediately.
I went to the Lionel website and got a pdf copy of the owner's manual and sent it to Mr. Renga. My main concern is I don't want to damage the gauge. It's an expensive part ($125 retail) and almost impossible to locate for the postwar ZW.

Dep

[lionelsoni]

I wouldn't venture a guess--don't know enough about the transformer or the BCR.