It's quite obvious by your post that you buy junk and nothing but junk. Where are getting your prices from? Recently there was an original Lionel Red Comet on eBay in EX condition w/ boxes that sold for $2,850. Go look it up! 1/2 the price...are you stupid or on crack? The last time I checked Lionel is re-making difficult, desirable, expensive when found items. Show me where they are re-making a super common 1682 litho caboose.
Red Comet- desireable
JC FM 2341 Passenger set- desierable
Flying Yankee- desierable
The only prices that the PWC series hurts is the operators junk. If Lionel put Red Comets out every year for 10 years, the original in that condition with boxes would still command $2,800.
If, you don't like than don't buy it! Buy the junk!
sir james I wrote:Ozzy - the point is how many mint prewar red comets have you found for $500.00? Not heard or read about but actually found.
That's a good point. And odds are if you did find one, it would end up selling for more than $500. If it has the box, it's guaranteed to sell for more. Truly mint vintage items often go for much more than "book value" because there aren't a lot of them.
I see it happen a lot on eBay. A train will sell for 3x what an excellent-condition example sells for, and I'll wonder why the price is so ridiculous, and usually what I find is a train in exceptional condition, with lots of clear photographs showing just how exceptional it is--close ups of wheels and couplers to show there's no dirt or rust, and pictures of anyplace you would normally expect to see signs of wear, so you can see there is none.
I'd still rather have an original. And I'd rather have a restored original over a reproduction if I can't find or (even more likely) afford an original in nice shape. But as long as people are buying new reproductions, they'll keep making them, and that's OK too.
ozzy wrote: first off,,,, how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years?2. why would you want to pay that kind of money for a copy of something, why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?
first off,,,, how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years?
2. why would you want to pay that kind of money for a copy of something, why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?
Good grief, no matter what Lionel does, people will whine.
First off, Lionel doesn't call it "prewar", they call it "prewar celebration" which is their own term for reproductions.
2. Lionel makes what people want. Lionel has been asked for quite some time to do prewar reproductions. People want pristine reproductions and they are in most cases, cheaper than pristine origionals.
3. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
the prewar red comet set in the 2008 book costs $674.99, the real thing in mint comdition if you add the engine and the 3 cars up is worth $500.00.
the reissues are cheaper huh????????? "
As some have pointed out this is not an "apples to apples" comparison. It's also one particular train. The repro will have neither the patina nor history of the original, and the original, assuming you can ever find it in mint condition, probably has no box, definitely has no warranty and certainly needs to be tuned up to run well or at all.
It's clear some don't want to spend the money on repros that they perceive as overpriced because of the "collector" market value. It's also clear some of us think the prices, while far from bargains, are worth it to have a "genuine" reproduction by the Lionel company with the Lionel name on it, as the original had. Some are happy with less than like new originals or with the "wrong" name on the side of the loco, and that's fine too. If you're happy with a slightly less expensive train with "Luxury Lines" or "MTH" on the side, I wouldn't try to argue that you've been duped or made a bad decision. It's just your decision, not mine. ;)
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
the reissues are cheaper huh?????????
Hello All!
As far as originals go, You'll never buy one for the price of a reproduction if you are looking for mint condition(no rust,scratches,or running time) & also remember that, by & large. Original Trains are pretty well used & usually you have to clean them up,rebuild the e-units & it is not unusual to replace the Drive Wheels also. I have a small collection of prewar 1688s & only one has the original Drive Wheels on it. The other 1688s had to have theirs replaced due to zinc pest (impure zinc castings) With a Reproduction you get a fresh train with no dents, rust, paint loss, & you get a warranty also & Lionel is reproducing their Prewar Trains with the Original AC Motors & Mechanical E-Units too. I enjoy the originals very much & they will always have a place in my collection. however, I'm just as thrilled with the reproductions now made by Lionel as they are mechanically faithful to the original designs of the 1930s. To each his own I suppose. Take Care.
the reissues cost a hell of a lot more then what you can buy the real thing for today.
A mint condition in the original boxes pre-war set that costs less that the reporductions? Where are you finding these? About the only time you get a "deal" like this is when you happen upon some poor elderly person or their younger clueless relatives who has no idea of what the fair market value of these items are. aka your "DEAL" is really a STEAL.
"thats just it,, the reissues cost a hell of a lot more then what you can buy the real thing for today. "
But those originals are not usually evenly remotely in like new condition, assuming you can even find prewar or postwar in pristine condition. Some of us prefer the like new/minty stuff, even as repros to beat up originals. Different strokes for different folks and all that.
37fleetwood wrote:well, I've always been partial to the tin stuff as well as pre and post war stuff and for the most part I think there is room for both. the one thing that was a turn off as far as the repop tin is the modern sounds and maybe the smoke. very disturbing to go on youtube to see one and watch this bizarre contradiction of clunky tin rolling around making electronically reproduced train sounds. here's an idea for Lionel to kick around. no electronics on tin plate and more on the lower end runner type engines like the Hogwarts or the Polar express. can you imagine these for around the same price with Railsounds out of the box? MTH seems to be able to sell $300.00 sets with Protosounds 2.0. also I'm with the guy who suggested re issues of 1688, 1668, 221, etc. I love the streamliners! I can't justify $1000.00 for one. make me a nice O27 re issue for a couple hundred and I'd be tickled pink! Scott
well, I've always been partial to the tin stuff as well as pre and post war stuff and for the most part I think there is room for both. the one thing that was a turn off as far as the repop tin is the modern sounds and maybe the smoke. very disturbing to go on youtube to see one and watch this bizarre contradiction of clunky tin rolling around making electronically reproduced train sounds. here's an idea for Lionel to kick around. no electronics on tin plate and more on the lower end runner type engines like the Hogwarts or the Polar express. can you imagine these for around the same price with Railsounds out of the box? MTH seems to be able to sell $300.00 sets with Protosounds 2.0. also I'm with the guy who suggested re issues of 1688, 1668, 221, etc. I love the streamliners! I can't justify $1000.00 for one. make me a nice O27 re issue for a couple hundred and I'd be tickled pink!
Scott
thats just it,, the reissues cost a hell of a lot more then what you can buy the real thing for today.
"all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them."
The prewar and postwar celebration series account for less than 5% of the catalog each year, so your comment is not supported by the facts. As far as new ideas, how about the first command control system in the three rail world (six years before the competition), the first improved coupler in 50 years or so (copied by the competition :), the Polar Express and Hogwarts sets, merchandising in the main stream stores for the first time in decades, the AEC reactor fluid tank cars, the Phantom, the only comprehensive line of operating railroad accessories in the industry, state of the art scale freight cars, Thomas the Tank, and on and on. For a tiny 60 million dollar a year company not too shabby, and much more "play" value and varieties of products (not road names, but actual niche products) than any competitor's line. Needless to say, I thoroughly disagree with almost all your points :).
And if you don't like the prewar repros, you don't have to buy them. It goes without saying that if people weren't buying them, Lionel wouldn't make them (not to mention MTH stealing their trade dress :), and the values of originals wouldn't be affected. Lionel is in business to make toy trains, not support the value of your collection or mine.
Now, If Lionel had made the Ives 1694, I'd want that. And please don't say Lionel will only make lionel engines, since that was made after Lionel became the sole owner of Ives. In fact I belive they still hold the rights to the Ives name as evidenced by the fact that they keep issuing the 027 track clips with Ives printed on them periodically to maintain the name as current.
I would also like to have an original pre war set, but if Lionel reissues a nice "have to have set" and the original is quite a bit more in price, I'm going to buy the reissue!
If the prices are compareable between the original and a reissue, I'm going with the original!
There are some people who like having something new, with new paint, new precision, etc., but that looks old. That's fine with me if it's what they want; it increases the interest in tinplate trains, and as long as they're running around telling people the originals are junk, that leaves more for me.
I can see the appeal of something new made the old-fashioned way, but I'm with some of the others here that I'd rather have an original, however imperfect. Nothing with a can motor matches the smell of the ozone and old lubricants of an original. Maybe the new ones with the so-called "traditional" motors have some of that essence. But I like holding something in my hand that has a history. Nothing can ever replace the postwar engines Dad played with himself, and that we played with together in the 1980s. Or the small cast iron American Flyer in my living room that I bought at an estate sale near my future wife's apartment in 2004. Sometimes, when I get the chance to buy something from the original owner who's still alive, I can learn more about the item's history.
Since Lionel and MTH are able to make money selling reproductions of the old trains, that's fine with me. People buy them. I just won't be one of them (most likely).
As far as Lionel preventing MTH from making Lionel reproductions, the designs are old enough that there's no intellectual property surrounding them anymore, aside from the Lionel trademark. You and I could make reproductions of vintage trains in our garages and basements if we had the skills and tooling to do so. (Which is precisely what Jerry Williams did, and a neighbor named Mike Wolf started working for him, and you probably know the rest of that story.) Others have done it in the past, and are still doing it now. We just can't slap the original brand name on them, since Lionel owns the Lionel and AF brands, and MTH owns Ives.
If I were going to buy a reproduction I would prefer to buy something from Joe Mania or Model Engineering Works, since they're built by hand and in much the same fashion as the original. But the price is higher, and you have to wait a lot longer.
lionroar88 wrote:Actually Jim I think Lionel is doing this in response to MTH knock-offs.MTH has been selling prewar knock-offs for a few years now and they include their PS2 sound and control system in them. IMHO, that is why Lionel is reissueing the Prewar and Postwar stuff.Hmmm... funny that Lionel hasn't sued MTH to stop them from selling knock-offs.
I think that has a lot to do with it as well, Brent. Has anyone ever counted the number of times the word Lionel shows up in MTH's tinplate and RTR catalogs?! But rather than turn this into a Lionel vs MTH thing, I'll just applaud Lionel for continuing a winning tradition by offering more prewar reissues. When are they going to release a new prewar celebration 1688 Torpedo set?
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I agree with the above statement. I buy prewar for the historical aspect of them. People say it allows a collector to own something in "mint condition", how does this work. The old mint items are ultra rare because they survived decades in new condition. I dont by that. Some of the MTH products find a niche. The 1134 is one such product. Originals are exceedingly rare, and when one is found it is usually broken. However i bought only a boiler casting to replace a badly broken original.
Okay one more thing. what the *&%^ is with the sound in the prewar tenders. That is the most pointless thing i have seen the new companies do with a repro. They need to make rare stuff like a 256 or 289, and make the parts for the repros readily available to repair originals. I went through hades to obtain a bare 1134 casting. 200 bucks later(overpriced) i have one. I would definately buy a beat original over a new one.
Bob Keller
The difference is in the 70 - 100 years, Bob. I like prewar because it is old. I appreciate the history. I find no fascination in running new tinplate, but running my 80-year-old #10E is a real hoot! Just think of the years it has seen and the places it has been and the hands that have held it!
I could wish that I were the only one who felt this way, though, so I could buy lots of the originals cheaply ;-)
I'm really a novice compared to most of you. My current interest is Postwar (originals). When I got into the O27 world, I did look at the Post War Cellebration series -even purchased a couple- but, in turn sold them, opting for the old stuff. If I did not have some originals, I probably would have been satisfied with the newer items.....I would guess that this is the same for the newer Prewar trains.....Just another class of train enthusiasts which is great for the hobby.
Ogaugeoverlord wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would want to buy the old stuff when you can get some nice, bright, brand-spanking-new prewar trains! New, is generally, better than old.
1., its not pre war if it is new.
2, the american made pre and post war lionel is way more reliable , even when some of it is 70 some years old then lionels new engines that was made in china and korea.
bright and shiny is all the new "pre war" is, they are still the same junk quality as all the rest of the china and korea made stuff.
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