Honestly I don't care if the engine is a repro, beaten up, or is now losing value. If I get statisfaction running or displaying it, thats what counts.
Alex
Dave Farquhar wrote: Ozzy, don't let him get to you. About the only time LS51Heli ever posts here is to stir up trouble. Although he complains about other people being cranky old uneducated people, he appears to be the crankiest of them all, and his inability to properly use contractions or apostrophes suggests that he isn't as well-educated as he wants people to think either, given that we have lots of people on this forum still in high school who have a far better mastery of the language than he does.
Ozzy, don't let him get to you. About the only time LS51Heli ever posts here is to stir up trouble. Although he complains about other people being cranky old uneducated people, he appears to be the crankiest of them all, and his inability to properly use contractions or apostrophes suggests that he isn't as well-educated as he wants people to think either, given that we have lots of people on this forum still in high school who have a far better mastery of the language than he does.
Well said, Dave.
Regards,
John
Bob Keller
ben10ben wrote:" EXC is the same as mint, mint without the box, NEW is mint with the box. " I realize that we're arguing sematics, but I have to disagree. Mint carries the implication that the piece has never been run. I.E. it's totally original, umblimished, without markings even on the wheels or pickup rollers. In my opinion, a piece can still be mint even if not boxed, although unboxed mint pieces are truly few and far between. Excellent, on the other hand, implies, to me, a piece that has been run but is still otherwise in very nice shape. In other words, there are no scratches, rust, or otherwise, although the wheels and pickup rollers show signs of having been run.I've never seen a "New" column in a Greenburg's guide for prewar and postwar trains. The only place I've seen "New" is in the sections on MPC and newer trains. In that case, "new" means never removed from the box or run, such as you might see with a new engine from a dealer. In any case, your argument is still falling apart based on the linked Ebay auction. You say that you consider it to be less than excellent, a point on which I agree, however it still brought $2800.
" EXC is the same as mint, mint without the box, NEW is mint with the box. "
I realize that we're arguing sematics, but I have to disagree.
Mint carries the implication that the piece has never been run. I.E. it's totally original, umblimished, without markings even on the wheels or pickup rollers.
In my opinion, a piece can still be mint even if not boxed, although unboxed mint pieces are truly few and far between.
Excellent, on the other hand, implies, to me, a piece that has been run but is still otherwise in very nice shape. In other words, there are no scratches, rust, or otherwise, although the wheels and pickup rollers show signs of having been run.
I've never seen a "New" column in a Greenburg's guide for prewar and postwar trains. The only place I've seen "New" is in the sections on MPC and newer trains. In that case, "new" means never removed from the box or run, such as you might see with a new engine from a dealer.
In any case, your argument is still falling apart based on the linked Ebay auction. You say that you consider it to be less than excellent, a point on which I agree, however it still brought $2800.
i think the set was EX, but i was pointing out that if i went by the 6 year olds standards (that he claims is right) for EX that this set was not an EX.
First off, I would like to say that it really amazes me how topics like this tend to bring out the worst in some people. Some posters don't like the opinion of the person who started the thread so they call him childish or a troll. There are plenty of other places on the web for you to insult and name call, why come here? The one reason why I like coming to this forum and occasionally posting is because it's usually a pretty open and friendly atomosphere. But over the last year it seems as though it's getting a bit more hostile and that is a shame. I thought the reason why most of us came here was because we really enjoy the hobby and like to talk with people who share similar interests. Apparently, I missed the memo on when it became a place to be rude.
Now with that out of the way, I'd like to offer that I am a fan of original pre-war and post war trains. I prefer runners that have play wear and have been handled. Partly because I have children and mint heriloom items in my house are just trouble waiting to happen (If you have ever watched the movie "The Sandlot", you'll know what I mean). Also, if I ever chose to pay the hefty premium for a mint pre-war train if I could find one, I think I would HAVE to run it. I wouldn't be able to help myself. I'd want to open it and put it on some track. So in that regard, I am thankful that Lionel has reissued some of the trains that I would probably destroy the value of if I got my hands on the originals .
A word about price guides - They are supposed to be just guides; that is, they are supposed to give the user an idea of what they might expect to pay for an item depending on the subjective condition. It's a range and you should expect to find variation in the range in the real world. But I do agree that many people end up using the guides like they are looking at a store catalog and consider them to be definitive on price. I'm sure that has lead more than one person to be disapointed, either in overvaluing their own collection, or in being priced out of the market because they can't buy anything for the price the book said.
Finally, a word about Ebay - It's a great resource for finding all sorts of stuff. But it is an auction site. As such, there are always going to be some what I would call ridiculous prices for highly desirable and sought after items - especially in 'mint' condition ones. One or two items sold on Ebay is not necessarily indicative of the direction a market may be headed.
Ok, my $.02 seems to have gone up to $.10. Thanks for listening.
Cheers,
Dwayne.
Dave Farquhar wrote:Ozzy, don't let him get to you. About the only time LS51Heli ever posts here is to stir up trouble. Although he complains about other people being cranky old uneducated people, he appears to be the crankiest of them all, and his inability to properly use contractions or apostrophes suggests that he isn't as well-educated as he wants people to think either, given that we have lots of people on this forum still in high school who have a far better mastery of the language than he does.I know from your posts here and elsewhere that you're a pretty nice guy who's just trying to enjoy your hobby and learn more about it. Hopefully the rest of us have managed to give you the insight you were looking for.
I know from your posts here and elsewhere that you're a pretty nice guy who's just trying to enjoy your hobby and learn more about it. Hopefully the rest of us have managed to give you the insight you were looking for.
yes, it seems most that posted here have done nothing more then post their opinion about my topic, rather it agreed or disagreed with mine,,, and thats what i wanted, and thats what i got from 99% of the people here, and i respect the ones that do not agree with me. well the 99% of them anyway.
i use to be real big into the lionel post war, was all i collected, all i cared about, well and some marx.. but after joining a club where a lot of people had newer 1:48 scale stuff,, i got hooked on that and i find my myself selling more and more of my post war stuff to buy more newer stuff. 5 or 10 years from now i may go back to postwar and kick myself for selling it,,, but oh well....lol its hard to collect more then one section of the hobby at a time.
LS1Heli wrote:The link below might broaden your thinking.http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-Boxed-Set-291W-264E-Red-Comet-Pass-Set-EX_W0QQitemZ140201174969QQihZ004QQcategoryZ4145QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemThats in EX condition! If the set was MINT you would be talking about at least $5K! $500 gets you junk!
The link below might broaden your thinking.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lionel-Boxed-Set-291W-264E-Red-Comet-Pass-Set-EX_W0QQitemZ140201174969QQihZ004QQcategoryZ4145QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thats in EX condition! If the set was MINT you would be talking about at least $5K! $500 gets you junk!
thats not in EX condition,,,, not by your standards it seems,,, the box's have been opened, and are beat up not crisp , color on the box is faded. atlest one box has water damage. paints chipped of the nose of the engine. chipped off the top of the engine as well. i seen 2 or 3 chips on the sides of the engine. and im not sure if its the pics or the cars , but it looks like they are a badly repaint.
so by your own standards this set is junk!
LS1Heli wrote: ozzy wrote:greenbergs, engine 264E red comet, mint 295.00 603 car 85.00 x 2 cars 604 car 85.00 LMAO! Dude, you have NO idea what your talking about. Quit making a fool out of yourself.
ozzy wrote:greenbergs, engine 264E red comet, mint 295.00 603 car 85.00 x 2 cars 604 car 85.00
greenbergs, engine 264E red comet, mint 295.00
603 car 85.00 x 2 cars
604 car 85.00
LMAO!
Dude, you have NO idea what your talking about. Quit making a fool out of yourself.
is it time for your nap yet?
man, from lsiheli reply's i would say he is 6 years old, someone disagrees with him he throwa a fit and stomps his feet and calls eveyones stuff junk. the "my stuff is better then yours" line....lol
BTW greenburgs has "good" "EXC" AND "NEW" EXC is the same as mint, mint without the box, NEW is mint with the box.
LS1Heli wrote: 3railguy wrote: Good grief, no matter what Lionel does, people will whine.No one ever complains about Williams or MTH. The price you pay when your a leader. Unbelievable though. This hobby is a bunch of un-educated old cranky men. This internet has really opened my eyes.
3railguy wrote: Good grief, no matter what Lionel does, people will whine.
Good grief, no matter what Lionel does, people will whine.
No one ever complains about Williams or MTH. The price you pay when your a leader. Unbelievable though.
This hobby is a bunch of un-educated old cranky men. This internet has really opened my eyes.
We're are feeding a troll.
ben10ben wrote:"greenbergs, engine 264E red comet, mint 295.00 603 car 85.00 x 2 cars 604 car 85.00" First of all, I've never seen a Greenburg's guide that listed mint prices. All the ones I've seen had two columns-an EX column and a Good column. There's a very practical reason for them not listing mint prices, too. If you read in the front of your Greenburg's pocket price guide, you'll see that the prices are based on actual transactions reported at the major Greenburg's shows. There aren't enough mint pieces changing hands to get an accurate statistical representation of their value. Mint pieces, especially for premium prewar items, are really a hot item. It's always said that something is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. There are collectors out there who have more money than they know what to do with, and will pay whatever it takes to get mint, premium trains. Finally, the price guide's aren't a for sale listing. They are, as mentioned, a statistical reprensentation of actual prices paid at shows. Some items may sell for less, some for more. Just because the book lists excellent red comet sets for that price, sellers have no obligation to hold to the price. As the Ebay auction illustrates, an excellent set will easily sell for much more than the book.
604 car 85.00"
First of all, I've never seen a Greenburg's guide that listed mint prices. All the ones I've seen had two columns-an EX column and a Good column.
There's a very practical reason for them not listing mint prices, too.
If you read in the front of your Greenburg's pocket price guide, you'll see that the prices are based on actual transactions reported at the major Greenburg's shows. There aren't enough mint pieces changing hands to get an accurate statistical representation of their value.
Mint pieces, especially for premium prewar items, are really a hot item. It's always said that something is worth whatever someone will pay you for it. There are collectors out there who have more money than they know what to do with, and will pay whatever it takes to get mint, premium trains.
Finally, the price guide's aren't a for sale listing. They are, as mentioned, a statistical reprensentation of actual prices paid at shows. Some items may sell for less, some for more. Just because the book lists excellent red comet sets for that price, sellers have no obligation to hold to the price. As the Ebay auction illustrates, an excellent set will easily sell for much more than the book.
your only 1/2 right. thats what the book is made for yes.,,,, but when you have 100,000 or more people useing the book to set the prices of the things they sell then the book itself is what is setting the prices,
just like in baseball cards, people would not pay more for a card because becket says its not worth more. so in turn becket price guides would not rase the price of that card, thats why the bottom dropped out of card collecting.
wow! why are you so angry with us guys?
I got my first lionel set when I was 10 in 1976. I'm 41 now.
I still have the set and much more pre and post war stuff.
I'm not exactly new to collecting trains.
I agree that the repop stuff will not change original prices.
ebay has made much stuff more readily available for much cheaper.
this hurts the value of original stuff more.
at least this is true in the old bike hobby. I don't think it is fair to call others stuff "junk"
and if I don't have anything that meets your approval too bad.
I don't think you have to get abusive about peoples opinions.
if folks like the re issues great if they don't great if they like finding lower priced stuff fine.
personally I would rather meet and talk with someone with a beat up Marx 490 who loves
trains than a snob who thinks anyone who doesn't agree with him is an idiot and his trains
are junk.
why would you say such mean spirited stuff about us?
finally if you look you can find all sorts of stuff for all sorts of prices.
if you want to buy a "set" then it may cost more, but if you pick up pieces as you go,
then I wouldn't doubt that it could be done.
I found a 221 dreyfuss hudson with its original freight set for $75.00 in good shape at a yard sale.
you need to scale back the invective and get with the program and simply state like
or dislike and move on in life. I'm kinda new here and this is the second time someone has
been kinda un-kind with their opinions. I personally don't like it.
If you can't be nice, you can't come over and play trains with me any more!
Scott
Agreed, that truely mint is big coin as you point out.
I find it amusing, however, that you are basically saying that everything else below mint is junk. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. Maybe I am taking too big a leap, maybe I would be happy with merely excellent or even very good trains on my shelf. Surely then, even if you have many mint jewels in your collection, you must have some junk. That being the case, I'll admit my collection is full of junk! And finally, please forgive me for picking on you for one single comment! No offense intended!
PS, you might also point out that exc in geenberg does not include the individual boxes which in exc or near mint could add a premium as much as the trains themselves and then you get into the outfit box which greenberg does not even cover. Sooo, while I am pretty sure I could find a red comet that I would be happy with for $500, I would never make the giant leap to think it might be mint!...unless of course it was a prewar celebration series set and I got a good deal on it!
PS, send me all your junk, I will find something to do with it.
Ogaugeoverlord wrote:I'd agree that the old stuff is more bullet proof than more modern trains - and here is the ... but ... - the execution of the tooling, quality of the parts and detailing, decoration (painting and signage) and performance of the modern gear outdistances anything made in the olden days. I've tested well over 300 modern locomotives, probably more than 2/3 made in Asia, and while not all have been winners, there has only been one that I considered total junk.
Man of experience. I usually listen to experience.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
LS1Heli wrote: ozzy wrote:the prewar red comet set in the 2008 book costs $674.99, the real thing in mint comdition if you add the engine and the 3 cars up is worth $500.00. the reissues are cheaper huh????????? Now I'm suspicious. How old are you?
ozzy wrote:the prewar red comet set in the 2008 book costs $674.99, the real thing in mint comdition if you add the engine and the 3 cars up is worth $500.00. the reissues are cheaper huh?????????
the prewar red comet set in the 2008 book costs $674.99, the real thing in mint comdition if you add the engine and the 3 cars up is worth $500.00.
the reissues are cheaper huh?????????
Now I'm suspicious. How old are you?
30, not that it matters here.
LS1Heli wrote:It's quite obvious by your post that you buy junk and nothing but junk. Where are getting your prices from? Recently there was an original Lionel Red Comet on eBay in EX condition w/ boxes that sold for $2,850. Go look it up! 1/2 the price...are you stupid or on crack? The last time I checked Lionel is re-making difficult, desirable, expensive when found items. Show me where they are re-making a super common 1682 litho caboose.Red Comet- desireableJC FM 2341 Passenger set- desierableFlying Yankee- desierableThe only prices that the PWC series hurts is the operators junk. If Lionel put Red Comets out every year for 10 years, the original in that condition with boxes would still command $2,800.If, you don't like than don't buy it! Buy the junk!
It's quite obvious by your post that you buy junk and nothing but junk. Where are getting your prices from? Recently there was an original Lionel Red Comet on eBay in EX condition w/ boxes that sold for $2,850. Go look it up! 1/2 the price...are you stupid or on crack? The last time I checked Lionel is re-making difficult, desirable, expensive when found items. Show me where they are re-making a super common 1682 litho caboose.
Red Comet- desireable
JC FM 2341 Passenger set- desierable
Flying Yankee- desierable
The only prices that the PWC series hurts is the operators junk. If Lionel put Red Comets out every year for 10 years, the original in that condition with boxes would still command $2,800.
If, you don't like than don't buy it! Buy the junk!
I just like to watch prewar-style trains run around on three-rail track -- I don't care how old they are. And I'm grateful that we have two major train companies making them again (something that was inconceivable two decades ago). To me, prewar is the heart and soul of the three-rail hobby.
- Clint
I have the new Pre-War Celebration passenger set and it is gorgeous. I would be more than hard-pressed to find a set of that condition for anywhere near the $520 I paid for it.
As for the whole remake concept, I have a lot of original postwar Lionel and love it. But I am happy to buy remakes of pieces I am missing when they come out. They look great, run great and so what's not to like?
My experience with Chinese-made pieces has been favorable. I don't believe they are any more prone to be defective than what was made here in the states before the move to the orient. Sure, I'd like to see them made here, but show me how Lionel could compete by doing that when its competitors all manufacture overseas.
I honestly don't know why some MTH-lovers have so much hostility for Lionel. Enjoy what you like, but don't bash the other guy!!
LS1Heli wrote:This hobby is a bunch of un-educated old cranky men. This internet has really opened my eyes.
Are you looking at your monitor or a mirror?
ozzy wrote: i buy newer MTH engines
i buy newer MTH engines
What happened your parents didn't like you?
ozzy wrote: 3. imo, lionel is killing the market for real pre and post war stuff, by rereleasing it is making the value of the real things drop. all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them.
3. imo, lionel is killing the market for real pre and post war stuff, by rereleasing it is making the value of the real things drop. all because lionel cant come up with any new idea's so they just reissue their own older stuff and put a big a** price tag on them.
Any one who is well adversed in collecting items and antiques in general knows thats false. A premium piece in premium original condition will always command a high price because it's original and could never be made that away again.
As we have been seeing the past couple of years, the price of operators pieces and junk has taken a massive hit. I don't buy it so it doesn't bother me.
ozzy wrote:2. why would you want to pay that kind of money for a copy of something, why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?
2. why would you want to pay that kind of money for a copy of something, why not buy the real thing for 1/2 the price?
Show me where you can get all of the originals of the Prewar Celebration Series trains in the same condition for 1/2 the price.
For example: The PWC Red Comet retails for $659.99. Please advise where you have seen a mint original in the box for $329.99. This way we can ALL buy the original.
ozzy wrote:first off,,,, how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years?
first off,,,, how can it be "prewar" but only been made in the last few years?
No one ever said that it is prewar. Read closely. It's called the Prewar Celebration Series which is celebrating the re-birth of desireable Lionel Trains made from 1901-1942.
Show me in the catalog where it says "Prewar trains."
3railguy wrote:Good grief, no matter what Lionel does, people will whine.
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