Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[fifedog]

Northwoods - I haven't dabbled into PreWar...yet.  Now I want a 425.  

[Northwoods Flyer]

Ahhh.  Now I understand.  

 

Welcome to the Tinplate side.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Set #14 - 1908!!!

Sometimes life surprises one.  I know I was surprised to see this set being offered for sale.  

The seller indicated that this set was his grandfather's set, so I am the first person outside of the original owner's family to own it.

Not pictured, but included is the original box for this item.  

As the heading indicates, this is Set #14 from 1908!!!!

This set represents some of the earliest American Flyer production. 

The gold stripe below the cab window on the engine is very unusual.  When I purchased this set, I thought it was yellow, but upon examining it, after it arrived, I discovered it was gold and not yellow.

Based on this set and others in my collection, I have come to the conclusion that the blue framed items are the earliest 1908 production.  I say this because 4-window Chicago cars typically have a brace at the top of the body to hold the roof on.  However, none of the blue famed coaches I have observed to date have these braces. This becomes even more evident in the coach with the red highlights on the blue frame not having the brace, but an identical car with red highlights, but on a brown/maroon frame and still the small 1908 couplers having the brace.  

NWL

 

[Nationwidelines]

Here is another set that is not often seen.  

Set 1326 RCT - Yukon from 1935.

I think that one of the reasons that this set is not often seen, is that collectors have the urge to separate these cars from this engine and put them with the Aeolus streamline engine.  

This set came to me as engine, tender and 3 coaches.  For the purposes of this picture, I put the observation car from my Aeolus set with the coaches that came with the engine and tender.  

NWL

[LL675]

That's a great looking set

[Northwoods Flyer]

NationWideLines,

Those are both beautiful sets coming from both ends of Flyer production in O gauge. Thanks for posting them.

Back a page I posted Set #4009 from 1940   -   Northern Pacific Passenger

 

Its partner on the same catalog page in 1940 is:

Set #4010 Northern Pacific Freight Train

 

 

I was fortunate to get the pieces for this set with their boxes; some of which are in rough condition.

Here are some photos of the siblings together.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[wrmcclellan]

"ROARING DIE CAST MONSTER OF THE IRON PIKE...

TYPIFYING SUPER-POWER IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS"

Awesome statement - great looking sets!

[Malcolm Laughlin]

Hello from a new member.  I've just joined this forum and subscribed to this thread beacuse my Lionel interests have expanded to include AF O gauge, which of course means prewar.  Some comments by Northwoods on another forum led me here.

I've got a question I hope someone can help with.  This thread has 74 pages and what I'm looking for could be anywhere.  Is there a way to search this thread ?

I'm looking for information on an AF crossing signal accessory that showed up in a Lionel collection.  It's an 8.5 inch tall crossing signal.  It makes a Marx or Lionel signal look small, so I'm wondering if it was a wide gauge accessory.

I'd like to ask someone to tell me about this signal and whether it is an unusual or rare item.  But I can't figure out how to include a photo with a reply on this forum.  Please help .

 

[Nationwidelines]

Unfortunately it is tough to tell you anything based on your description without a photo.  

Is it a gate, bellringing signal, etc.?  Colors?

[Northwoods Flyer]

Malcolm,

I am glad you found your way to the thread.  What did I say on the other forum that led you here?  Nothing bad I hope.

You have discovered a shortcoming of this thread.  It can be very difficult to search.  We had an index at one time, however with some formatting upgrades it became obsolete.  Maybe in retirement I can finally generate a complete index again. 

Edit:  Mersenne6 produced an index for accessories back on page.  Thanks for reminding me. 

Flyer's Pre War accessories do tend to be quite large because they were designed to go with either Wide Gauge or Narrow Gauge.  If you can provide a few more details about your accessory we may be able to identify it and give you more information about it.  If you do a Google Images search for American Flyer Prewar Crossing Signal you will find quite a number of photos.  Perhaps you will see the one you have.

Here are a few:

There is some information about how to post photos to the forums at the very top of the forums page.  If that doesn't work you could send a photo to my by email and I can post it.

Good Luck, its nice to have you with us.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Malcolm,

I see that you were able to post the photo and questions over on the OGR Tinplate Forum. I hope you won't mind that I am re-posting your photos here along with my response.

What you have is the Roadside Flashing Signal.

 

The Roadside Flashing Signal was given two numbers. Both the 2230 and the 4230 were cataloged 1928 - 1935.  They are not two different sizes.  The difference in the numbering indicated the size of the track that was included in the box.  The 2230 is for Narrow Gauge track and the 4230 is for Wide Gauge Track.  It is very difficult to find the lighted head in an undamaged condition.

Enjoying the World's GreatestHobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[RHicks309]

Hello, I'm another new member, and just as a test I'm hoping these pictures will show up.   Before and after.

Randall

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods Flyer

Malcolm,

I see that you were able to post the photo and questions over on the OGR Tinplate Forum. I hope you won't mind that I am re-posting your photos here along with my response.

What you have is the Roadside Flashing Signal.

 

The Roadside Flashing Signal was given two numbers. Both the 2230 and the 4230 were cataloged 1928 - 1935.  They are not two different sizes.  The difference in the numbering indicated the size of the track that was included in the box.  The 2230 is for Narrow Gauge track and the 4230 is for Wide Gauge Track.  It is very difficult to find the lighted head in an undamaged condition.

Enjoying the World's GreatestHobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

Given the condition of the paint on the base and the condition of the paint on the head of the signal, I would guess the head of the signal is a reproduction.  However, it is hard to determine this without a close up of the head.  There are ways to tell if one compares an original to a reproduction.

NWL

[mersenne6]

Malcom, in the event that you have other questions about accessories , if you go over to page 70 of this thread about half way down the page is a post with a post page index for all of the accessories covered in the first 70 pages.

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6,

Thanks for the reminder that you put together that index on accessories.  I edited that information into my post above, and here is a link to page 70.

http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/116423.aspx?page=70

You have to scroll down almost to the bottom of the page to find it.

Enjoyng the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

RHicks309

Hello, I'm another new member, and just as a test I'm hoping these pictures will show up.   Before and after.

Randall

 

RHicks309,

Randall its good to have you join us here on the thread.  Nice job on the restoration of the Royal Blue cars!  You are obviously a person who has the vision to see what is "not there" and picture "what could be".

Your work is top notch.  I see the tender in the "before" photo.  Have you restored it too? Did you get an engine with it as well?  

I think your work stands up quite well to an original.

Please show us more of your work.

Welcome Aboard

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[RHicks309]

Thank you!  As for the tender, I already had an engine and tender, so it was surplus and went into the parts bin.  Here's what the train looks like:

I'm always looking on eBay for basket cases like this that can be acquired at low cost.  And while we're at it, this is what the mechanism for the whistling baggage car looked like:

It's pretty ugly.  This train must have been stored underwater.  Anyway, from left to right we have the DC relay, the reverser, and the whistle.  I was able to save 2/3 of it.  I gave up on the reverser and replaced it with a spare S gauge reverser, but the irreplaceable DC relay and the whistle itself could be made operational.  So it's a real favorite!

[Malcolm Laughlin]

Thanks.  I took a look at that, copied it to Word and now it's in my AF folder.

[Malcolm Laughlin]

 I ran across this one as I was browsing the collection from page 70 on after looking at the index.  With the help of Greenberg's new O gauge book, we can pin down the year more closely.

The journal boxes on the cars make it 1928 or later.  I’m not sure from the photos, but it looks like your cars have red inserts.  Greenberg shows those for 1928 and 1929 and that the last year for light olive was 1926-26 and 1931. 

The 252 was in light olive with a passenger set until 1929.  Putting that all together, it looks as if you have set 294 from 1928 or 1929.

I notice a missing headlight.  You can get the parts for less than $10.00.  I’m putting one in a restoration job that I’m doing now.  It’s not difficult.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Malcolm,

It sounds like you are describing some Lionel equipment.  Did this get posted to the wrong thread?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Malcolm Laughlin]

Actually I was answering a question about a Lionel set that had a photo on your p. 70.  But that ought to be a separate thread.  I'm about to start that elsewhere following up on a weekend tinplate post.

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

 Thanks for the clarification Malcom.

I decided to bring both of the posts on page 71 dealing with the Lionel set closer to your response. And thanks for the identification.

dougdagrump

Hi Greg.

My BetterHalf surprised me some years back with a prewar Lionel set and those happened to be in the same trunk. Unfortunately time has really taken a toll on the set. The engine wiring insulation is disintegrating as well as other problems with the cars.

 

 

Doug,

Is that at #252?  I have a smattering of pre war Lionel in the collection, but I am by no means an expert.  I justify owning Lionel by telling myself I should have some examples of the products of the other manufacturers for comparison.

 

Greg, You are correct as to that being a 252, believe it was designated as Olive Green model( just had to use the olive green text). If memory is correct these were in production from 1931+/- til 1936. Hopefully one of these years I'll break down and get the whole set refurbished, the loco has seen rough times as well as the passenger cars that make up the set. The outer box is in pretty good shape for it's age but the inner boxes are missing some end flaps but are still legible. It will give me something to do when I get older. 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Accessories - Update

#2009 Arc Light and

#2010 Double Arc Light

As I posted back a page, street lights are my favorite accessory to collect. In the previous post I was on the hunt for an example of the #2009 Arc Light.

Well I found it.

 

In fact I found two; from different sources.

 

The colors are different and I suspect that the one on the left is a repaint, but a very old repaint.

Here are the #2009 and the #2010 together.

I was surprised to see the difference in size.

Their catalog illustration shows a slight difference in size and I guess I never bothered to read the descriptions of each of them which indicates an almost 2" difference in height.

 

A comparison of the filigree on each:

And here is a family photo:

On the new layout I hope to have a Wide Gauge and a Narrow Gauge section.  These will look great with one of the stations.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[LL675]

those are a thing of beauty!

[Nationwidelines]

3110's

The 3110 engines are listed in the Greenberg's guide as being produced in 1928-1929 & 1931.  This engine body is an updated version of the 1201/1218 engine, which features the addition of brass name/number plates.

Greenberg's lists version A as having a dark green body, gold window trim and grills, oval plates with 3110 and American Flyer Lines on each side and red painted pilots.  Pictured below is an example of version A.

Greenbergs listes verion B as the same as version A, but with black body.  Pictured below is an example of version B

One difference in the example I have is that there are no 3110 plates, but instead 4 American Flyer plates.

Version C is listed as Red Body, 2 American Flyer Lines plates on each side (ie 4 American Flyer Lines plates), hole in each door for motor lubrication.  Below is an example of version C.

However, it appears that there are other variations that are not listed in Greenbergs.  

The red engine pictured below, features a 3103 frame, which has cast iron cow catchers instead of the sheetmetal cow catchers of the 3110.  This engine is rubberstamed on the bottom with 3110 and Sold as Shopworn.

The last variation is assumed to be a 3110, based on the brass trim and sheetmetal frame with sheetmetal cow catchers.  The body appears to have been produced in between versions 2 and 3, as there are no holes in the sides for motor lubrication.

As for the color, it is 100% original, no repaints, has paint filled grilles, gold overspray on the inside of the body.  The motor appeared to have never been taken apart, until I disassembled it for cleaning and wheel replacement.  

Here is a grouping of the color variations.

NWL

 

 

 

 

[strainst]

Northwoods Flyer

Accessories - Update

#2009 Arc Light and

#2010 Double Arc Light

As I posted back a page, street lights are my favorite accessory to collect. In the previous post I was on the hunt for an example of the #2009 Arc Light.

Well I found it.

 

In fact I found two; from different sources.

 

The colors are different and I suspect that the one on the left is a repaint, but a very old repaint.

Here are the #2009 and the #2010 together.

I was surprised to see the difference in size.

Their catalog illustration shows a slight difference in size and I guess I never bothered to read the descriptions of each of them which indicates an almost 2" difference in height.

 

A comparison of the filigree on each:

And here is a family photo:

On the new layout I hope to have a Wide Gauge and a Narrow Gauge section.  These will look great with one of the stations.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

Northwoods Flyer

The American Flyer 2009 Single Arc Light and 2010 Double Arc Light have always been a favorite of mine also.  I first came across of the Single Arc Light on eBay back in 2000.   I was able to find one that I could afford in 2001.  After getting one, I went to Schuweiler’s “Greenberg’s Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge” to find out the history of the light post.  I found that there a three versions of the 2009 Single Arc Light.  The one I had obtained was Version ‘B’, which turned out to be the common one that I have found of the three versions.  The hunt was on.  It took many, many years to find examples of the other two versions.

Here is 2009, Version A with an early bulb.  Notice the filigree; the ends have curved hooks instead of tying into the main curved frame.

  

 

 

Here is Version B.  American Flyer, in this version, removed the hook ends and tied the filigree in the main curved frame. Of all of the ones I have come across and seen on the internet, this version seems to be the most prevalent.

 

The last version, Version ‘C’, American Flyer removed the small casted spur the wire went through after exiting the lamp post and before tying into the lamp socket at the top of the shade.  They also changed how they connected the power wires to this accessory.  Instead of using two screw posts, you now used two clips.

 

My next post will deal with the American Flyer 2010 Double Arc Light.

 

strainst

[Northwoods Flyer]

strainst,

Great job on finding all three variations.  

I tip my hat to you.

You have great determination, and it has paid off.  I haven't seen that many of the 2009 to remember the variations.  I'm looking forward to your post on the 2010.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer 

[Nationwidelines]

I can only guess this was produced late on a Friday or early on a Monday.

 

Here it is side by side with a normal variation.

The obvious difference is that the center piece goes up and down on the odd variation, rather than across.  Less obvious is that the lithograph in its entirety is rotated from the original version, so that the only way to read it correctly is to mount it in the manner that it is mounted.  The face of the sign is also punched with rivet holes to mount it the correct way.  

Interesting that there is no center writing/lithograph.  I wonder if this version was produced before or after the version that has the center American Flyer lettering?

Oh, and I should note that I have seen at least one other of these odd variations.

NWL

[strainst]

While searching for the American Flyer 2009 Single Arc Lights, I was also on the lookout for the 2010 Double Arc Lights.  Most of the 2010 I found were more than I wanted to spend, but eventually I found one and purchased it.  Now I had the three versions of the 2009 Single Arc Lights and the Double Arc Light that was listed in Schuweiler’s “Greenberg’s Guide to American Flyer Wide Gauge.”  Like Northwoods Flyer, I like to have at least two of each of the different versions.  I kept looking at these lights as I would see them at shows and on the internet.  I found the second Double Arc Light at an auction on line.  There was one lot of five Standard Gauge Lamp Posts in this auction.  This lot was the only toy train lot in the whole auction.  I submitted a bid and I was the lucky winner of the lot.  When I received it, I noticed right away, it was different than the one I already had.  I went to Schuweiler’s book and could not find it in the book.

The first 2010 Double Arc Light is the same version Northwoods Flyer posted.  This version is very much like Version (b) of the Single Arc light.

 

 

This version of the Double Arc Light seems closely related to the third version of the Single Arc Light.  The wire that goes to the lamp socket no longer goes through part of the filigree and the uses of clips to connect to power wires has replaced the two screw posts used in the previous version.   Unfortunately this lamp post is packed away, but if I remember correctly, I think this light post is shorter than the previous version.  If I can lay my hands on it soon, I will update this fact.  There is no reference of this version of the 2010 Double Arc Light in Schuweiler’s reference book.

This leads to the question; if there are versions of the Double Arc Light that a line with versions ‘B’ and ‘C’ of the Single Arc Light, is there one that would a line with version ‘A’ of the Single Arc Light? 

strainst

 

[strainst]

I came across this set box several weeks ago.  The set box is stamped 1221.  When I looked it up I found this set list for just one year, 1926.  After I received the box, I saw it also has another set number stamp on the same end as the 1221 stamp.  It is either IF3389 of 1F3389.  Is this a set sold by Montgomery Ward?  Do you think it had the same contents as the 1221 set?

Box Front

Here is the side with the stamps.

Any thought?

 

strainst