Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

StrainsT,

You have a great looking set there. I always wonder where items in this kind of great condition have spent the last 60-80 years.  Nationwidelines has a great looking engine too.

Just a thought about your set being from Wards.  I discovered something interesting about Wards when I was trying to find their catalog illustrations for the 7010 and 7011 (1929-1930).  While Wards was a national retailer, they still produced catalogs for specific regions.  I got a catalog for Wards from 1929, which upon further investigation is from Albany.  I have seen other scans of the trains offered by Wards the same year from other distribution centers that have different train sets.  So with the information from the Greenberg guide and Nationwideline's information about the type of numbering/identification system that Wards used, I would make an educated guess that your set is from Wards and from one of its regions. It appears to follow the numbering system that they used. Flyer might have provided different sets for different areas. 

One thing that I found interesting is that your set has no transformer, but three cars.  I wonder if someone added the third car in the place where the transformer should be.  Do the cars appear to match as far as wear?

Doing research on the equipment in my collection is one of the things that I enjoy most about this hobby.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

One thing to remember about American Flyer, They often sold sets without transformers and sold the transformer as an extra, separate sale item.  If you look back at the catalogs, the descriptions often have a recommended transformer or say transformer not included. 

Therefore, I would not say that an extra car was inserted in place of the transformer in StrainsT's set.  My 1101 set, which is a beautiful boxed set, does not have a transformer and never did.

I would also guess that Flyer did not package sets based on different regions in the country.  Rather they packed them for what the buyer's wanted or simply packed special sets and then offered them to the buyers as is. 

I know that the Wards catalogs for 1929/1930 differed between the different regions in the country, but that was likely due to what Wards was offering in those areas, rather than specific orders from Flyer for those regions.

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

I guess the worst possible option, which I doubt is the case for StrainsT, is that an unscrupulous dealer found a nice set and put it with a box that had a number on it, not caring if it was correct or not. 

 

I just state this, because I have seen it before.  It is easier to tell when this occurs if the setbox has a regular Flyer cataloged set number and the contents of the box do not match the description.  I have also seen sets like the Bluebird set, which come with a station, tunnel, and signal, in a flat setbox that fits only the engine and cars, with no number, yet the seller is calling an original boxed set.

 

Some of the flat out worst cases I have seen are a train in a setbox, but the train is comprised of a steam engine/tender from the early 1920s, cars from the early 1930s, and a setbox from the middle 1920s.  This "original boxed set" was for sale with a crazy asking price.

 

I guess I am ranting, because I hate to see this practice.  I have fallen for it before and I know that others have as well.  It can be very difficult to tell in some cases and I always try to consult my list of cataloged sets prior to making a questionable purchase.  However, in the heat of the moment, it is easy to make mistakes.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4635

The next number in the sequence that American Flyer cataloged is #4635

 

It was cataloged in 1929-1930 , which means that it was cataloged earlier than than the #4633. The major difference is that this model does not have a ringing bell and it bears the #4635 brass tag on each side.

 

 

It has 2 slots in the top of the cab, one of which isn't needed but on the #4633 had the control for the ringing bell.

 

 

It has a brass door at each end.

 

 

And the Amercian Flyer Lines brass tag above the door.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[strainst]

I would like to thank everyone who replied to my request for information on the American Flyer 4849 Train Set.  In the replies, several questions were asked and I would like to answer them.  1.) Have I run the set?  No, I am in the process of turning my second floor above my garage into my train room, two years running.  Not much was done the first year, but this winter I have made good progress.  I am hoping by the end of the years or by the end of next winter, it will be ready to have the trains un-packed and to start on building a small layout to run my trains on.  Another comment was on the condition of the set.  The set picture I took shows only one side of the set.  The 1120 cars are the same on both side, but the locomotive looks to have been exposed to smoke on the other side.  The stamping and trim paint is faint and black paint finish is dull.  I thought I would try to work with it to see if I could clean and polish it up a bit.  However when I was looking over the locomotive I accidentally scraped my thumb nail across the top of the locomotive and left a scrach on the top of the locomotive, so I think I will leave it as is for now.  2.) Do all three cars match?  Yes, the wear and the age cracking of the lithograph decoration on the 1120 cars are the same on all three.  Also the wear where the cars are stored in the box is the same.  You can see where the couplers have worn and scraped the separators as they where remove and put back into the box.  Thanks again to everyone.

strainst

[AF53]

Over the past half year I've set a goal to complete my goal in acquiring an American Flyer set from each decade. The only decade I was missing was the 1930's. I decided it would also be my first Wide Gauge set.

I normally buy the Locomotive first and then look to see what set(s) it belongs to. I found a Locomotive in nice condition, #4694 (Type IV) 1931- 1934 and was rubber stamped "4692XR/C on the underside of the pilot. It was accompanied with a #4963 Vanderbilt tender. 

So, here from 1932, set No. 1492 "Century".

The tender is followed by #4340 Club Car.

Next is the #4341 Pullman Car.

Next is #4343 Dining Car.

Last is the #4342 Observation Car.

My only concern is on the cars #4341 & #4343. Although #4341 is stamped on the bottom, my only reference material is from Standard Catalog of American Flyer Trains by David Doyle. And in his book they should have a different name plate, color trucks and air tanks. My guess here is that somewhere down the road some restoration was done. The only thing I need do is to replace some interior lights, but it still looks great on the tracks.

Here's a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_s_xagr6Ro

[Nationwidelines]

Ray,

 

I browsed through the Doyle book when it first came out and decided not to buy it because it was a very poor quality reference for pre-war items, as far as information quantity and quality.

 

Your passenger cars appear to be mismatched and I am not sure that they would be from the Century set.  The baggage and observation cars are from a Pocahontas set, as evidenced by the green truck frames, air tanks, and Pocahontas brass plates.  The other two cars would be from an early Warrior set, as evidenced by the gray trucks, trusses instead of air tanks, and American Flyer plates above the windows. 

 

I believe that the Century set came with 3 cars that are finished in an aqua blue color with red roofs.

 

NWL

[AF53]

NWL - Thanks for the info. Can I ask what is your source of reference? We all know the Flyer info from the early years has been known to be contradicting at best.

I don't have the Greenberg Wide Gauge book so maybe someone else has more details as all info is helpful. 

I looked through my catalogs and the 1930-31 "Lone Scout" and the 1931 "Stadium" sets both had the aqua blue cars with red roofs.

I agree somewhere along the way there was some restoration with two of my cars. I did think it was interesting that the #4341 Pullman car was stamped on the bottom.

After further review, the stamped #4341 is the only car that has no plates. You have to look close but they are transfers?

All of the bottoms have identical holes and slots making it easy to replace or repair the air tanks/trusses and the grey/green trucks. I'm tempted to leave it alone since they do look good, but someday you never know.

The catalog from 1929-30 had the Warrior set and the cars are shown with air tanks. The first year I can see when the passenger cars have the trusses instead of air tanks is in 1931.

[Gray Cat]

Nationwidelines

Ray,

 I browsed through the Doyle book when it first came out and decided not to buy it because it was a very poor quality reference for pre-war items, as far as information quantity and quality.

NWL

If I could add my 2 cents.. I would agree that Doyle's book is a big disappointment as far as Prewar American Flyer. Especially the Gilbert O. They could have done so much, but ended up offering very little and what's there is sometimes inconsistent with the facts. Prices are not realistic either. I wonder where he got his price references?

[Nationwidelines]

Ray,

 

I base my information as to your cars being a mix of Pocahontas and early Warrior cars on personal observations over the years.  I have a Pocahontas set and the cars have air tanks, green truck frames, and Pocahontas plates above the windows.  I have also had an early Warrior set and that set of cars differed from the Pocahontas set due to the gray truck frames and different style of trucks (look at your cars as they have different truck styles), trusses instead of tanks, and American Flyer plates above the windows.

 

As for the 1932 Century set, I am going to have to check with a friend who is more into standard gauge and get back to you.  In reviewing the 1932 catalog description I see that it describes the 4340 series of cars, but not a color.  I also see that the 1933 catalog description, it states "latest color is light blue and red roof"  but shows the same artwork.   I can tell you that the original flyer catalog artwork was often used for several years and the actual word description can be more accurate than the catalog artwork.  I know I have seen a 1933 century set with the blue cars and red roofs and that is the set I was familiar with.

[Northwoods Flyer]

AF53

Ray,

Thanks for posting the photos of your train.  The pieces are in remarkably good condition.  I enjoyed seeing the video of the train running.  Its always nice to see these 80+ year old toys still operating.

I think that you met your collecting goal quite well.  If you were hoping to have a train from each decade of American Flyer production, you certainly picked a beautiful train as an example from the 1930s.  I think you also found a way to show many of the variations in options that were available in Wide Gauge all in one train.  The styles of car are good representations, you have brass air tanks and truss rods, flex trucks and fixed trucks, brass tags and decals all represented. You covered just about all of it.

Now if you decide to expand your Wide Gauge collection you have the beginnings of a Pocahontas set, a Warrior or American Legion Set, and a Late Warrior set. I look at my collection as a way to educate others about American Flyer production and you have a nice way to illustrate many of the variations.  Just be careful that you don't end up like I have - collecting one of everything.  That isn't how I started out, but it sure seems to be the way I am heading.

I think that you should do a post with all of your examples in chronological order.   And we have to find a new American Flyer collecting goal for you don't we?  I have a few ideas.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4637

The next number in the sequence of St Paul style electrics that American Flyer cataloged is #4637. Unfortunately I don't have an example of this locomotive in the Northwoods Flyer Collection, but here is a photo of page 21 in the 1929 American Flyer Catalog.

The #4637 first appears in the catalog in 1929 and runs through 1933. As the page heading proudly boasts, there are "32 Points of Superiority". 

 

The engine has a ringing bell and a remote control reversing motor.  The color scheme of Green and "Rookie Tan" (as Flyer called it) is very attractive and when the 4637 heads up the Pocahontas set or one of the other sets of matching green and tan cars it is impressive. Notice that the cab has 6 ventilator openings per side where the other St Paul type engines only have 4 per side.

 

The 4637 is one of my collecting goals and as soon as I own one I will edit a photo of it into the thread.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4683

Sadly I can't seem to find my example of the #4683.  Once I find it I will post a photo of it here.  I wanted to do posts of all of the St. Paul style electrics but there won't be a photo of this one yet, unless someone has an example to post.

The #4683 was cataloged in 1930- 1931, and again in 1933 - 1934. It comes equipped with a ringing bell and a remote control reverse motor.  It looks very much like the other St Paul style locomotives aready posted.  There are two versions, which are created by a very minor variation.  Variation (A) has one 4683 brass tag and one "Built by American Flyer Lines" brass tag per side.  Variation (B) has two "Built by American Flyer Lines" brass tags per side and 4683 R/C is rubber stamped in white on the underside. I'm guessing that Flyer ran out of 4683 brass tags by the time they were cataloging it in the later years. The 4683 was cataloged in quite a few sets during its run.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Wide Gauge St. Paul style Electric outline Locomotive #4685

The final entry in the numbering system for St. Paul style locomotives is the #4685. It appeared in the catalog in 1929 and 1930.

 

It looks very similar to other examples in the series.  The main difference externally is the 4685 brass tag appearing on each side of the cab. Internally it has a remote control reversing motor, but no ringing bell.

 

It has a die cast light at each end, a brass bell, and a large brass pantograph on the top. The ends of the engine are ribbed and there is a brass door in each end.  The brass plate "American Flyer Lines" appears above the doors on each end.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

St Paul style Electric Locomotive - Odd Ball

Back in 1971 Russel C. Park published a book entitled American Flyer Wide Gauge.  For many years it was the best reference that you could find about American Flyer's Wide Gauge equipment manufactured in Chicago.

I remember the first time that I saw a copy of the book and I was instantly mesmerized.  Take a look at the front cover:

There you see a blue #4637 and a matching blue #4010 Tank car

 

In the introduction to the book Park says:

"Generally speaking whenever you run into "odd ball" combinations they show up in the Chicago area.  There was much research and model work done at the old Chicago plant. Many small changes or experimantal paint jobs were packaged in special sets and sold at the factory's Christmas retail store.  Many odd lots of surplus inventory were packaged and sold at the same outlet which accounts for the many uncatalogued varieties of trains."

 

On page 28 of the book he has a photo of the entire set which he identifies as a Mountaineer.

The caption reads:

"Blue Shasta...with black frame.  Note the matching color of the tank car.  Ths set was special ordered from the factory by the original owner."

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

A number of Odd Ball pieces have been discovered and posted in this thread, even this many years after production ended of Chicago Flyer.  There are still unique things to be discovered.  Its a part of what keeps me hunting.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods Flyer

 

I haven't done any additional research on this set, but I would love to know where it is now. (I have never been to the TCA Museum, but I wonder if it has ended up there.)  I will have to do some reading in the TCA Quarterlies from the past.  I think it is fascinating that special orders were filled.  I know that NationWideLines has a number of Odd Ball pieces in his collection,  So NWL do you have any additional information about this set?

 

 

 

Northwoods,

 

The blue shasta set is not in the TCA museum.  However, this unusual red shasta is in the TCA Museum.  Note that it is not the shorter st. paul engine.

 

 

As for the Blue Shasta, I have heard rumors that at least the engine is in a collection in the NYC area.  I am not sure that the set remains a set as pictured in the Russell Parks guide. 

 

NWL

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

NWL,

Thanks for the information on the blue #4637.  At least Flyer  was keeping the number tags true to the body style.  The blue and red #4637 follow the pattern of 4637's having six venilator openings per side.

The Greenberg guide says that the Park book shows a brown 4683.  The photo is very small and would be hard to reproduce here.  Have you seen that variation or photos of it?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

I have seen a brown short shasta.  I am not sure it had number plates on it, I just don't recall.  It was sold as a special set through Speigel's and came with the brown litho president special type cars.  I have not been able to get the owner to sell me the set.

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

Northwoods,

 

Another special color engine I have seen is a short shasta in green.  I do not recall the color of the frame on that one.  However, I do recall it being an original piece.

 

NWL

[Northwoods Flyer]

More Odd Ball St Paul style engines

 

NWL,

Thanks for mentioning the Spiegel set.  It jogged my memory.  Schuweilier has a photo of one of the uncataloged Spiegel sets in The Greenberg Guide.  The engine isn't in very good condition but it does show that it is in a brown color that matches the early Presidents Special cars.

I don't have a scanner so this is the best I could do to get a copy of that photo.

     I also took some photos of the examples in the Park book.

 

Here is the brown St Paul engine in a Pathfinder  freight set.

 

 

It doesn't look like either example of the engine has number tags.

 

And since that one turned out pretty well, here is the blue shasta in the photo from the Park book.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

The second style of engines that American Flyer had in its Wide Gauge Line was known as the New Haven Style. This style of engine was frequently used in the lower priced sets and it shows up with quite a few different numbers and colors. Lets start with the numerically lowest number, the

 4643

 

The 4643 is an 0-4-0 Box cab as are all of the New Haven Electrics.  It was introduced in 1927 catalog.

The identifying tags on the engine are brass with black lettering, as are most of the tags that year.

 

 

 

 

The 4643 has very little extra trim,  It does not have any brass air tanks and the journal boxes on the engine are an integral part of the frame.  They are painted black like the frame. One of the most distinctive feartures is that it does not have a brass overlay on the cowcatcher.

 

 

The headlight is a removable shroud made of nickel. It has red and green inserts in the headlight, which are missing from my example.

 

 

The 4643 was only cataloged in 1927 in a set called The Eagle.

It included a 4141 Pullman and a 4142 Observation.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4644

This number of the New Haven style appeared in the catalog from 1928 through 1932.  I would call it the workhorse of the Wide Gauge Line because it was used in many sets. The Greenberg guide lists seven variations. Most of the variations are relatively minor.  I have three of them in my collection.

Variation A

This variation has a black frame and a green cab.

The primary differences from the 4643 are: (1) brass flag holders on each end of the frame, where the 4643 has black sand barrels that are integral to the frame; (2) a brass overlay on each pilot, where the 4643 is just black, and (3) the 4644 has gold painted windows and doors. This example is a part of a set that has been passed down through our family.  You will also notice that it has solid brass replacement wheels.  I wish I knew the story behind those, but it hasn't been passed down.

 

 

Variation B

 

Schuweiler states that this variation has a black frame and a red cab

 

Variation C

 

Gray frame and green cab

 

The 4644s have two brass tags per side.  They have now changed to a black background (most likely starting in 1928) with brass numbers and letters.

 

Variation D

Gray frame and red cab

 

One of the things that I discovered as I have produced this thread is that the items in my collection are not always as I remember them being.  Upon inspection I realized that this 4644 is a very good repaint - purchased early in my collecting career. It will give you an idea of what this variation looks like but it isn't exactly right.  It has two diecast healights (both reproductions) where 4644s commonly have only one.  This could be an upgrade by a previous owner, or an unusual factory addition.  For now it is a placeholder in the collection.

 

 

 

Variation E

 

Gray frame and green cab.  This variation has two brass plates per side that read "Built by American Flyer Lines"

 

Variation F

 

Gray frame and red cab. This one also has two brass plates per side reading "Built by American Flyer Lines."

 

Variation G

 

Now this one gets interesting.  It has a gray frame and a red cab.  It has two 4644 brass plates per side and one brass plate that reads "Nation Wide Lines" in three lines. I bet NationWideLines might have one of these.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[AF53]

These are some items I picked up recently.

I will describe them to the best of my ability, but of course, please make any corrections that are needed. As we all know American Flyer made many uncatalogued sets in the 1930's and so far this looks like one of those.

3309 Locomotive-Tender Combination.

Type X Locomotive 7715 (1934).

Tender Type V Tender (1931-1935)

3150 (c) Baggage Car (1930-1933)

3161 (c) Pullman (1930-1933)

3162 (c) Observation (1930-1933)

I just can't put my finger on a set from the catalogs, maybe someone can help with this? Front and trailing trucks will be replaced soon.

[Nationwidelines]

I picked up a similar set in its original box about a year ago.  I believe that it is a special set that was sold through JC Penney's about 1933-1934.  I am not sure that it matches up to a cataloged set.

I date the set based on it having decals instead of the heat stamped numbers as on the earlier sets. 

 

NWL

[Nationwidelines]

I guess I should clarify that the setbox that came with my set is marked with a set number that is consistent with several JC Penney sets I have, which is why I believe it is a special set sold through Penney's.

[Northwoods Flyer]

AF53,

You have a nice looking set. The pieces are in great condtion.  I was looking through the 1933 catalog and your set looks similar to The Highlander set.  The illustration is different but the description is very similar.  I don't question NWL's identification of a J.C. Penney set since it comes in its original boxes, which are always helpful in identification. Flyer was always willing to package equipment for big accounts that differed from their cataloged sets. How great to be able to identify a store special.  Nice work guys.

New Haven Box Cab Electrics

4644 R/C

The next number in the lineup was cataloged from 1931 through 1933. Its very similar to the 4644 with the addition of a remote control reverse motor.

It must look like the red version of the 4644 above. I don't have an example in my collection

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4653

This number of the New Haven Style appeared only in the 1927 catalog.

 

 

Its a bright orange color with redish orange windows. It has one brass plate per side with black lettering which is common for equipment from1927.

 

Schuweiler describes the 4653 as having black sand barrels which are integral to the frame.  Mine has brass flag holders, which makes me question if this is a marriage of frame and body.  Anyone else have a 4653 with brass flag holders?

 

 

The 4653 is matched up in the catalog with two Bunkerhill pullmans and a Yorktown Observation, which also have red frames around the windows, in The Commander set.  The catalog shows the black sand barrels on the frame

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4654

The next engine in the numerical sequence was cataloged from 1928 through 1931.

 

It has an orange cab, gray frame and the accent color of the windows and cab doors has changed to a light blue.  It also has brass flag holders and there are two identifying brass tags on each side; one "4654" and one "Built by American Flyer Lines"

 

 

One of the sets that the 4654 headed up was the "Frontier Town".  It came with quite a few accessories.  I have an entry about that set back on page 74.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4684

The next number in the sequence of New Haven Electrics is the #4684.  It appeared in Flyer catalogs from 1928 through 1931. It is very similar to the 4644 and the 4654 except that it has a remote control reversing motor. Schuweiler lists 5 variations.

This is variation A

Green cab with black frame

Notice that one end has a rod with protruding from it which activates the remote control mechanism.  It should have a knurled nut on it, but that is missing.

 

Variation B

Red cab, black frame

 

Variation C

Green cab, gray frame

 

Variation D

Red cab, gray frame

 

Variation E

Orange cab, bluegreen window frames and doors

 

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics

4743 and 4753

As I was doing some research on the New Haven Style Box Cab Electrics in the Wide Gauge line I came across two numbers of engine that I had forgotten about.  Both of these engines were in uncataloged sets according to Schuweiler. I believe that they each came with two passenger cars. I have seen them referred to as "Knickerbocker" or "Empire Express" sets.  

I did some sleuthing on the internet and came up with some photos of a set that was sold at auction.  I'll include them here just for reference.  They are not a part of my collection, but I wish there were. 

This is the 4753. It has a numbered tag on one side

And a tag with Empire Express on the other.

 

The set came with a 4141 Pullman with "Empire Express" in the top letter board and "Knickerbocker" below the windows, and a 4142 Observation with the same "Empire Express" in the top letter board and "Henry Hudson" below the windows. Schuweiler lists the two passenger cars as being from 1927.

 

These are the only photos I have seen of this engine and cars.  If anyone knows anything more about this set please post the information here. The Greenberg guide suggests that the set is reported to have been sold by J.C.Penney.  With all of the references to New York I wonder if it was marketed through Macy's?

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer