Northwoods,
Great photos. I can add some info on the differing bases that you noted.
Since Northwoods brought up the difference of the banjo signal with and without the operating arm, I thought of the following similar accessory, which was marketed as the 203 Flashing Signal (without operating lever) and 223 Flashing Signal (with operating lever). Like the 202 and 222 Banjo Signal, this item first appeared in the 1930 Flyer catalog.
There are significant differences between the 203 and 223 versions of this accessory. The 203 version does not have the moveable arms inside the top and the rear of the top is not punched out. I have shown closeups of the 203 and 223 versions to show the operating mechanism.
223 on the left and 203 on the right in photo below
Well, since we're talking basic lineside accesories here's a lineup of the stop, look, and listen usual suspects - the #206 Danger Signal which, according to Greenberg had a run from 1920-1932.
Mersenne6,
It is good to see that you are able to post again.
I know that the 206 danger signal was made in later years, but may not have been cataloged for individual sale after 1932. It is certainly a part of the 201 and 210 equipment sets of 1936 and 1937. The green base/post 206 at the right center of your photo is one of the late ones that has the taller and more rounded base, which is similar to the items that I have from the late equipment sets.
I too am unsure of when the variation with no lettering at the center was made, but have one as well. I have seen variations of the 206 with the black post/base and orange post/base as well.
Mersenne 6,
Let me add my back too. It is great to have you posting again! I just read your post on the Marx thread too. You still have some goodies to share.
What is the difference between the two Danger Signs on either end? I don't see a difference, unless it is that there is a slight difference in the shade of red of the bases.
The Mersenne6 Special will be running on the Blueboard Central Division of American Flyer Lines tonight in your honor.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
It is just a color difference. Actually both the red and the green are a different shade.
#206 Danger Signal
Just so that we have these clustered together; this is the orange base, orange post version that Nationwidelines mentions.
This would be the black version of the 206 that was mentioned. This version is the late version c. 1936 or 1937. I believe that I have also seen an early black version of the 206, but do not have one.
The American Flyer "Yeah-But" Factor - Another 1927 Jeffersonian Set
Back on page 22 of this thread Northwoods and I discussed the variations of the 1927 Jeffersonian Set. He posted pictures of his version which had a long frame engine and cars that had green frames and trucks with nickel plated journal boxes. I, in turn, posted pictures of the "first" version of this set which had a shorter frame on the #3015 engine and had cars with black frames and trucks without journal boxes. This version was an almost exact match to the catalog cut for 1927
Gray Cat This car was advertised for sale as a crane car on the wrong tank car base. I took a chance and bought it hoping it was the 514 Wrecker car and as far as I can tell it is! A good find for $10. This has the open frame cast base with four holes (one at each corner for use on other cast cars). The trucks are riveted on with what look like factory steel rivets (lots of original patina). Not sure of the No. 11 decal, I don't know if this came like this from the factory or if it was in the kit (since this is riveted I'm guessing it's a factory car) or a later customer add on?
This car was advertised for sale as a crane car on the wrong tank car base. I took a chance and bought it hoping it was the 514 Wrecker car and as far as I can tell it is! A good find for $10. This has the open frame cast base with four holes (one at each corner for use on other cast cars). The trucks are riveted on with what look like factory steel rivets (lots of original patina). Not sure of the No. 11 decal, I don't know if this came like this from the factory or if it was in the kit (since this is riveted I'm guessing it's a factory car) or a later customer add on?
finally got all my photos restored and had a chance to catch up on some of these postings. congratulations on the 400 series cars you posted. that red 472 unloader is a stunner.
thanks for posting the picture of the #514 wrecker. i had also picked one of these up when i was looking for the #481 wrecker and at first was disappointed thinking i had purchased a home-brew piece, but eventually saw the listing in the prewar Greenberg book. without a picture there i was fairly sure about it, but now seeing another one pretty much confirms it for me.
my model has a black stack and the Flyer decal under the cab which is also mentioned in Schuweiler's description. i have a feeling the "No. 11" decal on yours was a user mod; looks nicely done, though. with the same riveted construction as you describe, i believe i also have a factory (vs. kit) model.
cheers...gary
mersenne6 The cars for this set are the real puzzle. They have black frames and trucks with no journal boxes and they also have air tanks which supposedly disappeared from Flyer cars several years earlier.
There is actually a set of those late Illini cars with air tanks on ebay now. They are in poor condition as compared to yours, but they do have the late frames/couplers and air tanks.
208 Semaphores
In speaking with Northwoods Flyer recently, he indicated that he was going to post photos of the 208 semaphores next. I thought I would pre-empt his post as I have a number of very early versions of the 208 semaphores.
First is the 208 semaphore c. 1915-1916.
This semaphore has some very unique characteristics that are found on only the earliest Flyer semaphores that date to the 1915-1917 ? era. First and foremost, the base is very heavy and made of cast iron. Second, the lower semaphore arm features a fish tail cut. This item can be matched to the artwork in the 1915-1916 Flyer catalog. This version features a black base and lower portion of the mast, with white upper portion of mast.
I believe this to be one of the first accessories that was produced by American Flyer, as their 1914 catalog shows only foreign made items and their 1915-1916 era catalog shows mainly foreign buildings and accessories, with the exception of the 107 and 208 semaphores. I also belive that this item was heavily copied from the Ives 107 semaphore of the era, down to the fact that in the 1915-1916 Flyer catalog, the single arm semaphore features the same number (107) as the Ives single arm semaphore. Items that are identical to the Ives piece are the cast iron base and the semaphore arm. Flyer changed the number of their single arm semaphore to 207 in their next catalog.
Next in the line is the 208 semaphore c. 1918-1919 This item features a stamped steel base and does not have the fish tail cut to the lower semaphore arm. The semaphores of this era feature a dark colored base and lower portion of the mast and then a white upper portion of the mast. Of the two versions shown below, the first features a dark blue base and lower portion of the mast and the second features a dark greenish colored base and lower portion of mast. The greenish colored base appears original and does not appear to be the result of fading.
I am not sure how long the dark colored lower portion of mast and dark base semaphores were produced. I know that these features were shown in the 1919 era and 1922 era catalogs and that a single color mast and base are shown in the 1925 catalog. There are at least 2 variations of early (c. 1925?) single color base and mast 208 semaphores. There is a gray variation and a brown variation.
overlandflyer finally got all my photos restored and had a chance to catch up on some of these postings.
finally got all my photos restored and had a chance to catch up on some of these postings.
I don't know what you had to do to get your photos back, but I am grateful that you did. This thread is fascinating: I look forward to seeing it any time it updates. I'm grateful to all who contribute!
Help! I have just spent a goodly amount of time looking for a post here on the thread and I can't find it. At some point one of the contributors posted some information about the 2218/4218 Block Signal that illustrated a variation that had the light on the left side rather than the right.
The common Block signal looks like this
Sorry I don't know where the thread is.. but.. I read what you are saying about a different head being manufactured. Could they have just flipped that head over and moved it to the left? Can't see the back but from the front it looks like it's the same whether upside down or right side up? Sure doesn't seem like Chicago Flyer would go to all the trouble to "manufacture" a different head. Flip it, put the decal on then put the bulbs in to fit the application! Might work.
Lover of all things Gilbert, truly a man ahead of his time.
Northwoods Flyer Help! I have just spent a goodly amount of time looking for a post here on the thread and I can't find it. At some point one of the contributors posted some information about the 2218/4218 Block Signal that illustrated a variation that had the light on the left side rather than the right. The common Block signal looks like this The post discussed that there was a variation that had the lights on the left side and that meant a completely different head to the signal was manufactured. I was sure that it had been posted here, but I have not been able to find it. Does anyone know where it is on the thread? (Boy do I need to update the index) I am begining to believe that I might have read about it on another thread.
Son of a gun, I have one!
1916 Set #2
Back on page 60 of this thread Overlandflyer posted a picture of a set box and made some reference to its contents. I have a similar set and the set box not only has the external label but it also has pictures of other train sets for sale printed on the inside.
Set Box Top
Inside of Set Box Top
My box too does not have external markings but the contents, with one exception, exactly match the 1916 catalog description for Set #2 - engine, tender, #1107 passenger car, #1108 baggage, and the oval of track.
There are cardboard spaces for the engine and two cars and someone added a cut out cardboard buffer to protect a second #1107 passenger car which was most likely a post-Christmas or post-birthday addition.
Here is an odd one, that is what it appears to be, a product of low quality control. One has to wonder how this got by at least two people at the factory? (Assuming that the person operating the press was not the one assembling the product)
after suffering through a camera glitch, a computer problem, another camera catastrophe and a final computer crash, at least i've challenged the adage that bad things happen in 3's. ...it's really 4's. (although i won't even mention the number of glasses i broke this month) anyway, now back in play-form, it's time for more Flyer (and Marx when i get another few minutes).
here is my favorite factory flub, ...and you'll just have to take my word for this one.
Another Leftover
Back on page 62 and further back on page 12 or so I made note of the "leftover" aspect of #3190 and #3180 engines that would suggest a 1932-1933 build timeframe. As I've mentioned previously, the leftover nature of these engines seems to have evolved based on what was left in the parts inventory.
Recently I was able to photograph this leftover variation. Unlike most of the "leftover" engines I've seen this one actually has an engine identification rubber stamped on the underside (3180) and I believe it might have had a headlight visor which is now missing, however the other tapped holes on the superstructure are paint filled. What makes the engine interesting is the tender. It has no brass details and the intact nature of the paint around the attachment holes indicates it never had any. The only adornment are decals both on the sides and the top and, as you can see, on the sides they were applied right over the slots which would have been used to hold brass plates with "American Flyer" identification. The engine, on the other hand, still has brass plates under the cab window.
excellent tip on checking the paint around what might at first appear to be missing parts. with close examination it's not that difficult to spot places where pieces were never assembled. i have a great example where a "missing" boiler band slot is completely painted over, though that was a later known variation.
of course, vs a design change, in this case as you mention, it was basically a matter of what was on hand... or not. wonder if some depression era suppliers weren't delivering(?) i'm guessing even the companies who successfully weathered these years may have been affected by the many who did not.
#208 Semaphore
Back on page 71 Nationwidelines posted photos of some early versions of the #208 semaphore. I am finally getting around to posting some additional variations.
The #208 Double Arm Semaphore was cataloged from approximately 1916 to 1931. I don't have any of the very early black and white versions that Nationwidelines has documented, but I do have some of the variations with colored posts. I'll follow NWL's assumptions that these are from 1925 and later.
This is my example of the brown version
Great to see you found your camera! I find the blue mast variation of your 208 semaphore to be quite interesting as I was not aware of that variation.
Here is another variation of the 208 semaphore. This one is shown in the artwork for the 240 Equipment Set, but did not come with my 240 Equipment set. A standard variation with the lithographed arms came with my equipment set.
This one is unique in that the arms come from the earlier and more deluxe 2011, 2012, 2015 semaphores. My guess is they were using up extra semaphore arms on this version after they had discontinued the previous mentioned semaphores, but who knows.
NationWideLines,
I was not aware of that variation of the #208 Semaphore. It does indeed seem as if Flyer was using up parts that they had on hand.
As I was going through items that I had stored I came across another variation. It turns out there are two variations of this variation.
I realized that the latest variation that you posted was missing. I believe this variation represents the point at which the double post mast was changed to a single post mast. Your variation with the two arms on the same rivet is interesting. I have also see a Flyer clock with two faces riveted to the same post. Likely the two blades stuck together and the assembler did not catch it.
I have a variation with two red arms, no green arms.
In addition to the semaphore arm being used on the 235 water tank set, it was also used on the 237 station set.
NWL
You are correct in your belief that this variation marks the change to a single post mast.
#2218 - #4218 Block Signal
It has taken awhile but I wanted to follow up on NationWideLines observations about the variations in the Block Signal. The more common signal has the light head on the right side.
I'd agree with Nationwidelines and with you concerning the signal differences and punch press feed. The same problem with hole punched base blanks being incorrectly fed into the base bending tool is the easiest way to account for the left and right crane locations on the long base #97 freight station.
While my sample size is small, the impression I have is that it is far easier to find left handed freight stations that it is to find left handed signals. It may be just the sample or perhaps it was more difficult to make a mistake when feeding the signal head punch press.
The Dixie Queen
1930-1931 Set # 1314
The Dixie Queen is a set cataloged with an illustration in 1930 and mentioned as an available set in 1931 without any illustration.
This is great thread.I have a 202 that my grandfather gave me years ago. Did not know what is was until you posted the pics.Thank you.
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