overlandflyer well i won't claim this one was a garage sale find, but i suppose everyone has their own idea of value. when i combined the rarity and the condition, i continue to have no post-auction regret. my nemesis has been the Hummer #7 electric outline, clockwork loco. i've seen a few at auction in the past decade or so that have met my condition minimums but have had to throw in the towel each time. is there a 1910 Flyer trolley in the house? cheers...gary
well i won't claim this one was a garage sale find, but i suppose everyone has their own idea of value. when i combined the rarity and the condition, i continue to have no post-auction regret. my nemesis has been the Hummer #7 electric outline, clockwork loco. i've seen a few at auction in the past decade or so that have met my condition minimums but have had to throw in the towel each time.
is there a 1910 Flyer trolley in the house?
cheers...gary
I do not have the #7 Empire Express electric outline locomotive either. The prices on those have been quite high in recent years and I have not wanted to spend the money.
As for the 1910 trolley, I have seen three of them and heard of a 4th, but have never seen one for sale. The last one I heard about selling, went for a crazy amount, but it is a beauty.
I only recently acquired a unpunched Chicago car c. 1907.
I guess I will offer up the following car for discussion. This car is c. 1918 or 1919? and is the earliest form of the lightening bolt car, which seems to have been discontinued shortly after being produced. It is not described in the Greenberg's guide and not shown in the Flyer catalogs of the era. Instead of having the three lightening bolts below the window in a circle, it has a variation similar to the winged loco that features a steam engine with lightening bolts coming out of either side. This logo is more commonly found on the lightening bolt baggage cars. In fact, if you look at the number of this car, 1205, it is the common number for baggage cars and not a passenger coach. There is a matching light brown baggage car for this, but there was not one with the set that this was in.
great car! other clues to its age are the earlier Type VII frame and the "American Flyer" without the "Lines". do the tabs below the roof line support recessed vestibules? i've seen this on a a few early cars, but i don't think i have any with that feature.
i'll take a guess at the ambiguity of the lightning bolts for the graphics change, ...lightning as in fast? or as in electrified? substituting the winged engine left no doubt that speed (after all, they were flyers!) was the implication.
These cars are very rare and I only know of 3 (but am sure there are others to be discovered) and this is the only one I know of with the 4 wheel frame. The others have 8 wheel trucks.
The tabs below the roof line is common on early cars and there is a spreader bar that keeps the sides of the car spread apart and hold the roof in place.
As for the lightening bolts, the thought is that they signified the electric line of American Flyer trains. A theory on why the use of the steam loco with the lightening bolts disappeared from the passenger coaches is that Flyer was developing the boxcab locomotive and the steam engine logo with the lightening bolts would have been out of place with the boxcab engine. It makes sense, but who can say, as this logo was still used on the baggage cars that were produced with the later series of lightening bolt cars.
Overlandflyer, thanks for the interesting posts on clockwork. One thing about the pictures of the Type VIII and Type VII. Instead of the dimensional differences you note I think the easier visual clues for differences would be the extension of the boiler front and the extension and compression of the cowcatcher. The Type VII boiler front and the rivet line are much further away from the end of the running boards and the gap between the steam chest/cylinder and the side of the cowcatcher is also much greater.
huh, i can see that difference now. i'll have to add those guide lines. i usually just pick up on the location of the casting joiner bar. located close to the stack, it's placement is usually visible from many angles.
i just recently joined the DSLR club and finding it an invaluable aid in studying and comparing models. point and shoot cameras are ok for eBay ads, but nothing beats the clarity of a long exposure, near-pinhole aperture photo you can get with a good digital camera.
thanks...gary
overlandflyer i just recently joined the DSLR club and finding it an invaluable aid in studying and comparing models. point and shoot cameras are ok for eBay ads, but nothing beats the clarity of a long exposure, near-pinhole aperture photo you can get with a good digital camera.
I have had an SLR camera for going on 30 years and purchased a digital SLR camera about 5 years ago. I also use a mystudio purchased from procyc.com when taking pictures of trains. Their mystudio unit provides for an uninterrupted background and excellent lighting and works excellent for taking pictures of trains or other small items.
i checked out the MyStudio setup and it looks nice, but i have always had a problem with white backgrounds. US steam locos typically being all black, off-black, or mostly black, i've found the important details get washed out when the camera tries to balance the entire frame. that's why i've been trying the brown cardboard, albeit not very esthetic, backgrounds.
a few weeks ago i got an idea from another forum friend who recently who showed me a photo of his setup. essentially it's nearly identical to the MyStudio product, but with a blue background. he does incorporate the curved vertical transition to eliminate the horizontal seam, though the MyStudio seems a little more flexible with the full corner available for added depth when you need it.
i actually just stopped at a framing store a few days ago and picked up some matte sheets in a few colors to try and spruce up my shots a little.
thanks for the information...gary
Excellent posts folks. The information that you have been providing is really great. You have expanded my knowledge about the wind-up equipment that Flyer produced. Thanks and keep up the good work.
3046 Log Car
Several pages back I posted photos of the #1346 Jeffersonian set that my neighbor owns.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
I do have a variation of the dark blue 3046 that you mention. It appears to have white lettering on the bottom of the car, similar to that of your neighbor's set.
I also have another variation of a blue 3046. It is an earlier car and is not in the greatest of shape. I have seen others similar to this early variation.
Here is a Type V Clockwork Locomotive number 15 variation D, ca. 1919-1920. With a length of 7 3/4" it was American Flyers largest cast iron Clockwork ever.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Does anyone have a good picture of the 1910 American Flyer Trolley? I have a friend who collects trolleys and when I told him about the trolley, of which he was unaware of, he requested a photo of one. I told him I did not have one but I would ask a round.
strainst
Northwoods Flyer 3046 Log Car This variation of the 3046 is not listed by Schuweiler in the Greenberg Guide. He lists 5 variations (A through E) of the 3046 cataloged between 1930 and 1935. The dark blue color is what makes this car unique. I am going to propose that this is actually variation (F). The Type VIII trucks were used from 1933 through 1938 so I would guess that this variation appeared in 1934 or 1935 (the 3046 was not cataloged in 1933). The fact that the box is labeled and is priced individually indicates that it was available as a seperate sale item. And just to be certain that this is a 3046 we can look at the bottom. I have an example of this blue car in my collection, but the color is so dark blue that it appears black. Under very strong light you can see that it is blue and it also has a yellow 3046 rubber stamped on the bottom. In talking with NationWideLines I believe that he has a car similar to this one.
Here is an example of a blue 3046 I picked up a couple of weeks ago. The condition is not as nice as the one from your neighbor, but I was thrilled to get it. This one has Lionel couplers on it and is stamped in black on the underside. I see how the original couplers were mounted on your neighbor's car, so now I know what I need to do to attached the correct couplers.
As you can see, I need to do a little work on the brake wheel stand.
At the same time I was able to pick up a 3017 caboose with a green base. When I first saw it, I thought someone had repainted the base until I turned it over. This car also has its number stamped in black. Has anyone ever seen this variation?
Here is the bottom with the number.
AF53 Here is a Type V Clockwork Locomotive number 15 variation D, ca. 1919-1920. With a length of 7 3/4" it was American Flyers largest cast iron Clockwork ever. Ray
=============
along with defining Types, Schuweiler also classified four groups of Types and for nearly two decades, a top-of-the-line, large cast iron class of clockwork locomotive was always listed starting with Type V (1914 -20), Type X (1920 -22) and finally Type XI (1922 -26 & 1929 -32).
(l to r) Clockwork Types V, X & XI
and the largest locos also held the largest c/w motors.
the brake lever rod also had a slightly different function on these motors.
the front of the motor contained a track trip lever which could be used with a special track piece to 'put on the brakes'. after activated, pulling back the cab lever arm resets the track trip which sends the train on its way again. this mechanism changed in design with the last Type XI, but functionally remained the same.
getting the most bang for their buck, Flyer also used these three basic large shell types (with some mods, especially to the Type XI) as their first three electric motored, cast iron, steam locomotives.
Here is a Type XII Clockwork Locomotive number 2 (or number 12). At times American Flyer used two catalog numbers for the same locomotive and this is one of them. Besides having some slight different lettering/numbering under the cab window, it is identical to the numbers 1, 10 and 11 of the Type XII loco's with the main difference being the die-cast wheels, side rods and brake.
The number 2 was cataloged from 1922-1924 and number 12 from 1925-1930.
Ray, a nice example of a "premier" Type XII loco. Type XII's are much more common with stamped drive wheels and no side rods or brake. i've never been able to definitively calculate the years that straight drive rods were used, but my feeling is that it was after 1922 since the only examples i have are on Types XII, XIV and XV motors, but later Type XV's (the bell and headlamp versions) went back to offset rods. straight rods were longer on the Type XIV and slightly different on the Type XV, so it's also hard to fake this type by swapping the motor without it being noticed.
always handle cast iron driver locos carefully. i can attest to the fact that it doesn't take much of a fall to shatter the spokes out of a wheel. luckily it was only a one-time occurrence.
Well Gary, since I don't have any Type XV's yet (because you have them all), I thought I might go with....
Here is a Type IX Clockwork Locomotive number 2 (ca. 1920-1922). Number 2 came in 3 variations, however none mentioned "ten-spoke red die-cast drivers with side rods and "A.F. 10" below cab window. Making me believe it's a number 2(a) shell with a number 2(b) motor. Or, we just may have stumbled across a new variation, 2(d)?
Type IX came in two versions, 1 and 2. The only difference being that number 2 has a brake. This one is missing it's side rods. Notice the "A.F.10" below the cab window. Alan Schuweiler gives R. Trickel credit noticing that "it appears as the number is an afterthought because it is not always centered."
Ray, thanks again for the post. it's really nice getting some other opinions on CI clockworks. other places i've posted strings, i've been averaging ~0% feedback. ok, so let's go with Type IX, then...
it was nice to see your cast iron wheel version, for i now feel this is legitimate.
here is the left side of a mate to yours, with one odd addition. the front wheel looks original, but it also looks like it is aluminum(??) very hard to tell except for the color and texture without removing (and it's only on the left). i can't seem to find the reference, but i thought i had also read somewhere that Flyer at one point made cast iron drive rods which turned out to be very fragile and the reason some are missing.
Type IX's also seem to have had the most cab embossing variations.
and one that isn't mentioned in the text...
the "A.F.10" variation definitely looks like an addition to the plain "A.F." embossing, but the "A.F. 1" is centered differently which i feel makes it unique rather than a mistake with a casting void.
the short-lived Type IX (1920-22), replacing the 2nd generation Type VI and subsequently being replaced by Type XII as the "small, better quality" class, is much more commonly found with the 8-spoke, stamped drive wheels w/ no brake or side rods as shown.
3046 (f) blue variation - continued
strainst,
You snagged a very nice example of the 3046. From the number of examples of the blue 3046 that have been posted it appears that it is not as uncommon as I thought it was.
I received an email from Mersenne6 a few days ago. He is having difficulty posting photos to the thread. He sent the following photo and commentary to me so that I could post it.
You will notice that the set pictured has a blue 3046.
Northwoods/Mersenne,
I suspect Mersenne's 1317 Railroader set would have to be a very late 1931 or early 1932 set, as 1931 was the only year that the 1317 Railroader set appeared in the Flyer catalogs.
I would also suspect that the blue log car was added to his set at some point, maybe added by the original owner during the year following their initial purchase of the set. I conclude to this because the catalog description for the 1317 Railroader set does not list a log car as a component of the set. An additional factor that lends some support to the log car being added to Mersenne's set after it being sold, is that his log car has decals on it and the other cars in his set have the heat stamping / rubber stamping lettering.
NWL
Here is a scan of the 1931 catalog showing the Railroader set
occasionally i'll join that group who, sadly, require a 3rd rail.
likely in the 3192 class (electric Type III loco + 3196 tender), here's a curious one...
left side view, "American Flyer" plate on the loco, "American Flyer" Plate on the tender.
right side view, "3195" plate on the loco, "West Point" tender.
now, in Greenberg there is a 3196 tender shown with "Hancock" plates which up until now, i would have thought might have something to do with John Hancock, but interestingly there just happens to be a town in western Illinois by the name of West Point, which is in Hancock county. coincidence? it was rumored that Louis Marx had big buyers in Bogota and Montclair, NJ. i wonder is William Coleman made some similar pieces for his local business contacts.
for comparison, two pictures of my other 3195 (slightly different motor, Flyer plates on both sides) in contrast to its parent, clockwork Type XI casting.
though it went through a major redesign to incorporate the electric motor and working headlight, its clockwork heritage is still clearly evident in the electric Type III casting.
Thanks for putting the pictures up Northwoods. For whatever reason the only way I can now get to this forum is through Firefox and it will only allow me to post messages. I sent an e-mail to CTT so I'm hoping they will be able to tell me about some kind of workaround otherwise my contributions to this thread are going to be severely curtailed.
The version of the Railroader I have was in a flat box and all that was left of the box when I got it was the remains of the bottom half and a piece of the top with the set ID. The bottom part had places for each of the cars, a space for what I'm sure was the station and some of the track side accessories (missing) but no room for a tunnel.
As for the issue of decals it isn't just the flat car that has them. The engine and tender both have decals instead of brass plates. As I detailed in the series of posts I did on the #3190/3180 I think the engine itself is the last of the leftover parts type #3190's and given that it has the 1932 motor I think it is a 1932 product even though it was only cataloged in 1931.
This wouldn't be the only set carryover from 1931 with no listing in 1932. I have another set which exhibits similar characteristics.
Overland Flyer wrote
"now, in Greenberg there is a 3196 tender shown with "Hancock" plates which up until now, i would have thought might have something to do with John Hancock, but interestingly there just happens to be a town in western Illinois by the name of West Point, which is in Hancock county. coincidence? it was rumored that Louis Marx had big buyers in Bogota and Montclair, NJ. i wonder is William Coleman made some similar pieces for his local business contacts."
This is interesting as I did not know about the West Point and Hancock county coincidences. Obviously the Hancock, West Point, Madison, Academy, Annapolis, Army-Navy, and Adams plates that may or may not be found on these 3196 tenders result from their being extra plates produced for the standard gauge President's Special, Legionaires, and Flying Colonel sets and not likely from these towns in western Illinois. The entire grouping of plates seem to be more in the American History/Military theme than being related to small towns in Illinois. Obvious references include West Point (army academy), Annapolis (navy academy), Army-Navy, Academy, Hancock, Adams, Madison (Revolutionary War figures (John Hancock, James Madison, John Adams) / US President's (Adams and Madison).
However, the initial question by Overland Flyer does bring up the references to where some of the names that Flyer and other manufacturers used. I have always wondered about Bing, with some of its named cars including Kenosha, Waukegan, Rockford, Rochelle, which are cities/towns in the overall larger Midwest/Chicago area. Bing's Pinehurst and Lakewood cars have been mysteries to me, but I believe that Pinehurst may be a NJ reference.
I know that Flyer used Glyn Ellen, which is a suburb of Chicago. I have also heard that there was a Terminal Station in Chicago somewhere. The Central and Union Stations are common enough names, with Chicago still having a Union Station. Kennilworth is also a suburb of Chicago, which was near where WO Coleman lived, so that makes some sense also.
Not sure about any other references by Flyer, but there are likely more of them.
mersenne6 This wouldn't be the only set carryover from 1931 with no listing in 1932. I have another set which exhibits similar characteristics.
In hindsight, I guess it should be noted that the catalogs typically came out late in the year, so it would make sense that the sets would have been sold/produced well into 1932.
I also have some late production sets from the 1930-1931 era that have unusual engine/motor configurations in them.
Mersenne, I find your description of the set box most interesting in that it was flat with no room for a tunnel and that it had space for the log car. Obviously, your set must be some sort of uncataloged Railroader set that featured the Railroader set tag. Too bad the whole box did not survive. I know from reading various wholesaler catalogs showing flyer sets, that some of the wholesalers were selling sets 1 to 2 years after the sets being discontinued from the Flyer catalogs. Specifically, I recall a Clipper set in a 1933 wholesaler's catalog, but the set last appearing in the Flyer 1931 catalog.
I also did not note the decals on the engine/tender until you mentioned it.
Nationwidelines This is interesting as I did not know about the West Point and Hancock county coincidences. Obviously the Hancock, West Point, Madison, Academy, Annapolis, Army-Navy, and Adams plates that may or may not be found on these 3196 tenders result from their being extra plates produced for the standard gauge President's Special, Legionaires, and Flying Colonel sets and not likely from these towns in western Illinois. ...
This is interesting as I did not know about the West Point and Hancock county coincidences. Obviously the Hancock, West Point, Madison, Academy, Annapolis, Army-Navy, and Adams plates that may or may not be found on these 3196 tenders result from their being extra plates produced for the standard gauge President's Special, Legionaires, and Flying Colonel sets and not likely from these towns in western Illinois. ...
well, there's a fact that isn't really mentioned in the PrewarO text. i have seen some Wide Gauge President's Specials up for sale in the past, but have never been curious (or rich) enough to look that closely and notice the name plates.
are other tender examples known? are they typically on one or both sides when found?
though sometimes you just have to make due with what you have on hand...
As for the tenders, I have tenders with Hancock on both sides, Madison on both sides, and one with West Point on one side and American Flyer on the other side. I think it is just a matter of what the people assembling the tenders had for plates to put on the tenders.
I believe I have also seen tenders with Adams on them and do not recall about the other names. I suspect there could be variations with all of the nameplates on them.
As for the re-used metal on the small NWL car, I have seen examples of the smaller cars both NWL and American Flyer cars, with re-used litho flooring. Most of the time the re-used metal is facing up into the car and is not visible. I suspect when it is visible that possibly someone saw it inside the car and turned it out so that it was visible.
NWL - Pinehurst is in Atlantic County and Lakewood is in Ocean County. Both are in southern New Jersey.
Nationwidelines As for the re-used metal on the small NWL car, I have seen examples of the smaller cars both NWL and American Flyer cars, with re-used litho flooring. Most of the time the re-used metal is facing up into the car and is not visible. I suspect when it is visible that possibly someone saw it inside the car and turned it out so that it was visible.
it was on the inside of the coach, i just popped it out for a proper portrait.
Hafner and Marx were also big users of recycled tin.
btw, Kenilworth is also a northern NJ town.
thanks again for the updated tender info. cheers...gary
strainst At the same time I was able to pick up a 3017 caboose with a green base. When i first saw it, i thought someone had repainted the base until I turned it over. This car also has its number stamped in black. Has anyone ever seen this variation? Here is the bottom with the number. strainst
At the same time I was able to pick up a 3017 caboose with a green base. When i first saw it, i thought someone had repainted the base until I turned it over. This car also has its number stamped in black. Has anyone ever seen this variation?
3017 (I)
Along with your blue 3046 you also snagged an interesting 3017 caboose. I have never seen this variation and Schuweiler doesn't mention it in his book either. He does list 8 different variations of this 8 wheel caboose. I think we might just be able to add this to the list as variation (I). It would be interested in seeing if anyone else has this variation. I don't have it in my collection.
Here are the 3017s that I have for comparison.
trying to sort my severely disorganized photo/scan collection, i came across this one...
years ago i picked up a Flyer cash register that seemed like a bargain and later discovered the fun money inside was the less common version of the two styles.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month