Southern Colorado Marx,
To answer your question, the wide low cars feature a wide body and low profile, hence their name. These cars came in two lengths and multiple colors. The shorter cars like the frontenac cars came in orange, red, green, aqua, and blue and there were 4 and 8 wheel cars. The 3171-3172, 3176-3177, 3178-3179, and 404-405 cars are the longer cars and they were sold between approximately 1930-1939. These cars came in tan and green, red/red, blue with silver roofs, and cadmium plated. There were no baggage cars to go with the longer cars. Here are some of the longer cars.In order, the cars are 3171-3172 in tan and gree, 3176-3177 in red, and 3178-3179 with cadmium plated finish.
Nationwidelines I am sorry, I wrote a nice post to your question and it did not post NWL
I am sorry, I wrote a nice post to your question and it did not post
NWL
No problem. I thought it was funny. Something a zen master would do - answering a question with the same question the student asked.
Thanks for the detailed response and pictures NWL. It looks like there are quite a few - more than I thought. I really like the looks of the cadmium ones, but I'll bet they are not easy to find.
I'm curious if a car that was stripped of paint and clear coated would look like the cadmium cars, or is the plating obvious.
And yet another question. Is there a way to go directly to a specific page on this thread, or do you have to move through two pages at a time using the page bar?
Craig
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer I'm curious if a car that was stripped of paint and clear coated would look like the cadmium cars, or is the plating obvious. Craig
Craig,
If you look closely at the cadmium plated 3178 and 3179 cars, they have extra vestibules attached to the ends of the cars. These vestibules are unique to the cadmium plated cars. Therefore, stripping a common car and clearcoating it would not get you the same car. I have seen cars that were painted silver in an attempt to recreate these cars.
Another thing of note, is that the cadmium plated cars is really more of a dull finish. My cars showed well with the flash.
I thought that I would expand on the post that NationWideLines did on the Wide/Low Profile cars. As he pointed out these cars come in two lengths: 6 1/2" cars that come with either four or eight wheels, and the 8 1/4" cars that come with eight wheels. I posted these photos back a few pages but they illustrate why they are called wide/low profile in comparison to other passenger cars produced at the time.
The 6 1/2" 4 wheel cars are the 3140 Baggage, 3141 Pullman, and the 3142 Observation.
The 6 1/2" 8 wheel cars are the 3150 Baggage, 3151 Pullman, 3152 Observation, 3161 Pullman, and the 3162 Observation.
The 8 1/4" 8 wheel cars are the 3171 Pullman, 3172 Observation, 3176 Pullman, 3177 Observation, 3178 Pullman (this is the cadmium finish car), 3179 Observation (also a cadmium finish) - all of which are from the Chicago Flyer era. The 404 Pullman and 405 Observation are from the Gilbert era when production was moved from Chicago to New Haven. As NWL noted, there never was a baggage car produced for these larger 8 wheel cars.
Within these car numbers there are a vast array of variations which include obviously the color (as NWL listed above), the type of truck used, the type of coupler, decals - which also vary vs brass plates, types of door and there may be other variations that I am not remembering. These wide/low passenger cars are a collection all by themselves.
I will be working on a post that lists the sets that contained these cars but it will take me a while to go through my catalogs and identify the sets that came with wide/low profile cars. But here is a tease. This is the Iron Horse set cataloged in 1931 and 1932.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Thanks Northwoods Flyer. I look forward to you presenting the sets.
I really like these cars. I am not, however, sufficiently funded to be a collector. There are several nice car sets on eBay that are just a bit too rich for my blood. Also there is a steam loco (423) passenger set that has drifted past the reach of my modest means. It looks similar to the Iron Horse set except that the cars are a teal color.
Still I have picked up some cars and sets here and there and will continue to do that. I recently acquired the Torpedo set you listed in an earlier post.
There is indeed a lot of variation. For instance the beige and green cars I have do not have the Golden State logo that NWL's pictures show. Instead there is the American Flyer Lines banner.
By the way, I successfully re-wheeled the 3107 from the Frontenac set. I followed the clear and detailed directions given by NWL and you and that worked well. Thank you again for that.
Glad to be of help with the re-wheeling instructions. It is not too difficult to do, but is somewhat daunting the first time. Now that I have re-wheeled at least 20 engines, it becomes a much easier task, especially when having the proper equipment.
Set # 1346
The Jeffersonian . . . .the conclusion
Back on page 55 and page 56 I posted some entries on the # 1346 Jeffersonian set. I thought I would finish off with some photos of the entire set.
That two-tone blue looks really nice.
I am curious about the car connectors on both ends of the engine. Your pictures alternately show both ends of the engine leading. The box cabs I own have connectors on one side only. I never really paid attention to this before.
Also, as you mention, the only thing missing on that set are the cast lights. I just replaced the cast light on my 3107 and it was pretty straightforward. I'll show pictures in my next post.
Here are the pictures of replacing the cast light on my 3107.
First of all, this is the cab as I received it.
There is a slot with a grommet in the center and a screw mounting hole for attaching the light. I think the hot wire must have been threaded through the grommet.
The part I found (on eBay) is a different design. I believe it may be for Lionel cabs. Instead or an insulated wire, there is an insulated tab that fits inside the cast housing.
So I needed to modify the openings on the cab. First removing the grommet.
Then filing the rectangular opening smooth and enlarging the screw hole to match the slightly smaller distance between the screw hole and hot wire opening of the cast part.
The cab under the cast light was slightly flattened to fit snugly. I'm not sure this is the best bulb, but it is what I have on hand at the moment.
The light tested fine with the hot wire to the connection and ground to the body. I'm not sure this will be the same with the body mounted to the frame. I may need a ground jumper, but maybe not.
Also, I realize this is not "original." There may be more authentic AF cast lights available. This works well, however, for my purposes as the engine and set are nowhere near collector quality to start with.
Re-wired, re-wheeled, lighted, and ready to rumble.
I have what I believe is the 1710-RT Pennsylvania passenger set based on pictures posted several times in this thread. I believe my engine is missing the headlight lens.
I'm not sure what the engine is called - "torpedo" or "0-4-2?" I have looked some at AF parts sources, but have been unable to figure put what part might serve as a replacement from the text descriptions. I have linked to some Olsen picture pages, but they are for S gauge, and I have been unable to decipher how to use the search function from their home page. Whatever I type in the search box produces no responses.
I would definitely appreciate any information on what this part is called (or numbered) or where it might be available.
Thanks,
I do not believe that there is a headlight lense on the torpedo locomotives. I have a super example of an original black torpedo from 1936 and I just looked and there is no headlight lense on the front of it.
Thanks NWL. Maybe there is not one.
When I compare the one I have
to a picture posted on this thread
it looks like mine is missing a trim ring/bezel and lens. But it is definitely not conclusive. It may be just an artifact of the photographic lighting or something.
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer:
You have a nice example of the Type XXI Pennsylvania locomotive cataloged from 1936 to 1939. I have all three variations of this locomotive and none of them have a lense in the headlight. The two earliest versions have a ring around the headlight as a part of the casting, but no seperate trim ring or bezel. My black engine that you have pictured above has the ring painted white so it looks as if it is a seperate ring. What looks like a lense in the headlight is actually light reflecting off of the bulb inside the engine. The third variation has an entirely redesigned nose piece and the headlight is also a part of that casting.
A few posts back you asked about the difference between engines that have couplers at one end vs those that have a coupler at each end. I'm not sure that there is any pattern to why that is. I'll bet that some have lost their couplers over the years. I think that it makes sense that engines that could reverse would have a coupler at both ends so that cars could be pulled with the engine in either position. Those that only went in one direction would technically only need one coupler, but I have some steeple cabs and medium sized box cabs that only go in one direction and still have a coupler at each end.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
Thanks for the explanations Northwoods Flyer. I didn't think about variations, but I should have, given that seems to be quite common with model trains. I can see how the gleam that I took to be a lens is actually a reflection from the bulb.
Thanks also for the coupler explanation. The pattern seems to be that there is no pattern. Missing parts aside, someone in the design/manufacturing areas had to be making these decisions. Maybe it was simply based on inventory - lots of couplers then put on both ends - short on couplers then put on one end.
Couplers by themselves are interesting. I don't suppose there was any motivation for manufacturers to make their products link up with others. Tab and slot couplers come close - except, for instance, AF tab and slots are higher off the rail than Marx ones. But AF, Ives, Marx, and Lionel prewar couplers seem to run the gamut in design. I realize that this not a collector issue other than historically documenting the changes.
Thanks again. Y'all are very helpful.
wow, nice string, though it took me about 3 hours to get through the 60 pages even noting a few that i will read more closely sometime later.
i hope to add some pictures, but thought i'd start with just one (never posted to this site before and just want to make sure i have the method down). it was noted in the catalog cover photos that the 1914 shot also appeared on a box cover. this cover must have been post-1915, however, with the Halsted St. address v. W. Kinzie.
cheers...gary
overlandflyer,
to the forums and welcome to the thread. Its good to have you here. Wow, three hours! You must be a die hard Pre War fan.
Thanks for posting the photo of the box cover. It looks like you didn't have any problems with figuring out the process. Do you have any idea what the contents of the box were? That small price tag on the end of the box is intriguing. Any idea the store it came from or the price?
Does your name indicate an interest in Hafner trains?
We'll be looking forward to more photos and contributions. Thanks again for joining us.
overlandflyer i hope to add some pictures, but thought i'd start with just one (never posted to this site before and just want to make sure i have the method down). it was noted in the catalog cover photos that the 1914 shot also appeared on a box cover. this cover must have been post-1915, however, with the Halsted St. address v. W. Kinzie. cheers...gary
I have seen the 1914 variation, which is a full color paper label with the Kinzie Street address. The black and white version, as you showed, was printed directly on the box, as opposed to being a paper label like the 1914 variation.
appreciate the welcome, and though you're right that i am a prewar fan, i'm also retired so have the time to kill most days. and yes, i am a Hafner collector preferring 4wh cars and clockwork motors, but i also range to Marx and Am Flyer.
i'll have to check my records to verify the contents of the set box, but i believe it was a Type I loco small freight set. the tag is too faded to see any of the original printing, but there is a handwritten "$1.50" still visible.
i found the Type VIII shell (i notice you don't always use the Schuweiler "types" for the cast iron locomotives shown) with the electric motor (pg 49 in this string) to be the most interesting piece shown and surprised nobody seemed to comment on it. all the early electric motors i have are too large to fit in any shell but the large Type V and X (No.'s 15), though one of them does have the larger version of the 'inside sealed armatures" motor you picture in that note.
at first i didn't think this was a Flyer motor, but the pickups eventually led me to believe it was having the same hardware as another motor i have with the more common open-side design.
actually the upload process i have to re-learn is getting the images up to my webspace. Cox deleted their web service recently and i'm now having to poach one of my aunt's Comcast accounts which has a similar confusing process (which i believe they do on purpose).
i've actually been constructing a similar string in the Yahoo group - prewarOgauge, though limited to mostly AF steam from ~1911-1935 including most cast iron and sheet metal types. i suppose there are benefits from both inline photos v. a separate photo section, but i'll eventually likely have 200+ photos there and find when it gets to that size, a photo gallery presentation is a little easier to navigate.
here is one of my most interesting pieces:
a type XIII shell with "A.F. 9" embossed under the cab. it is mentioned in the Greenberg text, but only as hearsay. i actually found it in an live online auction with a picture too small to see the embossing, but as it was oddly described as a "#9" locomotive i took a chance that it was indeed marked and wound up (from at least my prospective) stealing it.
i also found a slight difference in the Type XIII casting that isn't mentioned in the Greenberg text.
both Type XIII, the lower shell includes 4 mounting posts in the casting used to center the smaller econo-motor. the smaller motor also required a second screw with a spacer to secure the rear of the motor which is missing the rear slots that normally butt into the casting as the standard motor was secured. by the way, the large econo-motor has the same form-fit as the standard Flyer clockwork motor, but i doubt if any ever left the factory that way.
since the small econo-motor went on to populate the next generation Type XV shell-type (though the key was redesigned to be a screw-in type), i have to imagine that the earliest casting version was the large motor version.
the Greenberg text shows a standard Flyer clockwork motor (right hand key) in a Type XIII shell, but my feeling is that all Type XIII's left the factory with the cheap clockwork (large or small) and when those may have failed (i believe the economy motors were not lifetime guaranteed), the user found a spare standard clockwork drive to substitute.
Gary,
Thanks for another great post. I have to admit that my collection does not have representatives from this area of American Flyer production. I have tried to avoid reading Chapter 3 (Clockwork-Powered Steam Locomotives) of the Greenberg Guide by Schuweiler simply because I don't want to be tempted to start collecting these locomotives as well. The display area in the train room is already full and too many of my pieces are spending time in boxes under the layout. I have to admit that the clockwork and cast iron engines are very interesting, and I hope you can provide some additional photos of this segment of equipment. I know that Mersenne6, Otis B.Drinkwater, AF53 and NationWideLines have all made contributions. This is an area I look forward to leaning more about.
"i found the Type VIII shell (i notice you don't always use the Schuweiler "types" for the cast iron locomotives shown) with the electric motor (pg 49 in this string) to be the most interesting piece shown and surprised nobody seemed to comment on it."
In my opinion the work done by Schuweiler is excellent and gives structure to what could otherwise be a bewildering array of equipment. Even with his work it can still be a challenge. I learned most of what I know about PreWar Flyer Narrow and Wide Gauge from his books, and from The Collector, the publication of the now disbanded American Flyer Collectors Club shepherded by Frank Hare. As this thread grew I realized it would be a good idea to try to keep the identification of pieces consistent and in line with the system that Schuweiler developed. Sadly, the books are out of print and expensive to own for most folks. Some folks who have posted here don't have access to these resources so I think you will find folks trying to identify pieces as best they can. I am definitely in favor of using his "Types" as a method of identification. You will have noticed that we have even identified some examples of equipment that weren't mentioned in the books. Ahhh the fun of collecting American Flyer PreWar trains! Even after this many years there are new things to discover.
Thanks for the heads-up on your group on Yahoo. It looks like I am going to have to join just so that I can take a look at the photos posted there. Somehow I sense another black hole of time is about to be explored.
N.Fly'r, well it's nice to know we probably don't butt heads in auctions very often. my collection only contains a couple examples of diecast or later and i tend to favor 4wh rolling stock.
here's some research i did recently i thought might be of interest...
i discovered a c/w drive in a Type VI shell with a patent date stamped on the side of November 1915.
i thought about the fact that Hafner left Flyer in 1914/15 and that the Flyer clockwork motor radically changed at about the same time and started searching patents. it took a while (notice there is no reference to Coleman or American Flyer), but i finally found this patent filed by the Parker Clock Co. of Meriden, Conn (interestingly ~20 miles from New Haven):
http://www.google.com/patents/US1159437
so apparently the original left-side keyed, clip-in motor, ...
clearly a Hafner design, ...
was replaced by the Wachtelhausen design in 1915, ...
which was modified in shape (for all but the large Types) sometime in the early 1920's, ...
pretty much keeping that standard shape until the end of the cast iron clockworks in the early 1930's.
overlandflyer i found the Type VIII shell (i notice you don't always use the Schuweiler "types" for the cast iron locomotives shown) with the electric motor (pg 49 in this string) to be the most interesting piece shown and surprised nobody seemed to comment on it. all the early electric motors i have are too large to fit in any shell but the large Type V and X (No.'s 15), though one of them does have the larger version of the 'inside sealed armatures" motor you picture in that note. at first i didn't think this was a Flyer motor, but the pickups eventually led me to believe it was having the same hardware as another motor i have with the more common open-side design.
I want to thank you for posting pictures of your steam engine with the unusual motor. As for the post on Page 49 not gathering more attention, it is probably because it is such a difficult to find item, as is your motor, that few people know about these engines. They appear to be a short-lived variation that must have been made around 1922. Your picture gives me something else to look for.
Since we are on "Clockwork" I thought I might share some of mine with you fans.
Type XII, #2 or 12, 1922-1932
More to follow.
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
hosting the 1933 World's Fair had to have helped out local Chicago businesses...
#570 Trolley Car
retailing at 30¢, tens of thousands of these unpowered trolleys were sold in 1933, yet few apparently survived. though advertised as a floor toy, it does have tinplate, O gauge, flanged wheels and a bell that rings off a cam bend in the axle, but unfortunately it seems to take a minor disassembly to access the headlamp battery, ...perhaps a reason many were eventually discarded? cheers...gary
That is a great piece. I have been looking for one for several years and just have not come across one in reasonable condition at a reasonable price.
well i won't claim this one was a garage sale find, but i suppose everyone has their own idea of value. when i combined the rarity and the condition, i continue to have no post-auction regret. my nemesis has been the Hummer #7 electric outline, clockwork loco. i've seen a few at auction in the past decade or so that have met my condition minimums but have had to throw in the towel each time.
is there a 1910 Flyer trolley in the house?
Here is a Type VI Clockwork Locomotive number 0 variation A, ca. 1916-1918.
clockwork Types VII & VIII have got to be the two hardest to distinguish. so much so that one of the very few Greenberg errors is the comparison photo on page 40 where the captions claim you are looking at a Type VII and a Type VIII when, in fact, the pictures are both Type VII locomotives.
Type VIII is only ¼" shorter than Type VII. pictured are the two clues that can help you distinguish one from the other when a measurement is not given or merely estimated. of course if the cab is embossed with the "A.F.12" it is definitely a Type VII, but Type VII's also came, perhaps even more commonly, with the plain red stripe, too. cheers...gary
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