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Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

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Posted by wallyworld on Friday, November 4, 2011 4:03 PM

Otis,

The first thing that came to mind with the Flyer Clock images is "Steam punk" that also brings to mind the V&T McKeen car at the Nevada Museum.  The AF Flying steam engine logo is also an unexpected pleasure. In my humble opinion it outflanks all the rest, in getting the "spirit" of toy trains across. Thanks for these unique images..the lithography colors in the postings of late are just..well..simply beautiful.The colors of litho trains make the contemporary look drab and colorless, even if they are more realistic. Who needs realism..lol when you have these unique cars.

Bruce

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Friday, November 4, 2011 5:00 PM

wallyworld

Otis,

The first thing that came to mind with the Flyer Clock images is "Steam punk" that also brings to mind the V&T McKeen car at the Nevada Museum.  The AF Flying steam engine logo is also an unexpected pleasure. In my humble opinion it outflanks all the rest, in getting the "spirit" of toy trains across. Thanks for these unique images..the lithography colors in the postings of late are just..well..simply beautiful.The colors of litho trains make the contemporary look drab and colorless, even if they are more realistic. Who needs realism..lol when you have these unique cars.

Bruce

Bruce,

The V & T McKeen car is quite a car.  I saw it this summer on my way back from the TCA Convention, as I happened to be driving along US Route 50 and there was the museum.  Unfortunately, they had it in the shed, but it was very impressive as was the Inyo. 

The Flyer flying loco is a great logo and it looks great on the cars and in Flyer's advertising.  As for the color of the 1107/1108 cars, I find that the colors of the pre-1920 cars is more varied than some of the later cars. 

The Flyer clock is a great piece.  Although I am not a Lionel collector, I know that Lionel issued a paperweight for their 25th anniversary.  I believe it was a St. Paul type loco on a wood base.  I have seen a picture of one once, but do not have one. 

Otis

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Saturday, November 5, 2011 4:59 PM

This may be of interest to fellow collectors.  I happened to run across some pictures of a 120 battery tender (for a windup engine) with the original battery still in place.  I acquired this a year or two ago and it still had the battery that was dated 1935 in place.  Having never seen an actual battery in the tender, I snapped some photos of it in place and of it removed. 

The battery was labeled  F4, which I assume is the battery size/type.  It appears to be about the same size as two AA batteries if they were placed next to each other.  However, the posts on the battery are different. 

So for all those who wonder what sort of batteries went in a battery tender, here one is.

 

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Posted by billbarman on Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:48 PM

Wow, did not know Batterys in the tender were even used back then...Laugh

I completely My American flyer set. I went back to pick up the 3017 caboose this morning.  

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Posted by wallyworld on Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:06 PM

I just picked up a AF  boxcar with similar trucks that look like a PRR (Long Island ) design or early Fox  traction trucks.. on the prototype roads..The photo is from a vintage "Ping Pong " LI RR coach. Some general similarities..

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Sunday, November 6, 2011 8:36 PM

billbarman

Wow, did not know Batterys in the tender were even used back then...Laugh

I completely My American flyer set. I went back to pick up the 3017 caboose this morning.  

http://i948.photobucket.com/albums/ad330/rickay21/DSC_2500.jpg

 

Flyer began using batteries in some of its windup engines, which featured headlights.  This would have been in the early to mid 1930s.  I believe that all of the windup streamliners (zephyr, hiawatha, and minnehaha engines) had headlights and recall removing a C cell battery from one of my windup streamliners ages ago. 

The battery in this tender was just so unusual in shape and has odd battery posts, soI kept it and placed it beside the tender.  I had never heard of an F cell battery until I found this one.

One of the problems with these old batteries is that sometimes they leaked the battery acid onto the train, which ate through any paint/lithograph and typically caused the item to rust heavily.

 

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:54 PM

Here are a couple of pictures of some of American Flyer's more interesting wind-up trains.  These were made for the British market and were marketed under the brand name British Flyer.  Unfortunately, I do not have any cars, just the engines. 

It is my understanding that at least the GNR locomotive bodies were first marketed as black painted engines, but that they did not sell well because the real engines were green.  In fact my GNR locomotive is a factory repainted green over black engine.

There is a 3rd engine that is not shown.  It is reportedly a smaller casting than the George V locomotive and is numbered 4000. 

These engines are somewhat difficult to find.  I managed to find both of my engines on ebay and they both came to me from England.
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Posted by strainst on Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:23 AM

That's amazing.  I have a couple of tenders of this style in my collection, but I could not figure out how to attach the wire that goes to the light socket.  It also shows that a three volt bulb was originally used for locomotive that pulled this style tender instead of a one and a half volt bulb that you would use with the locomotives that pulled the  "Limited"  style tenders.  They look like they use a "C" size battery.

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:22 PM

strainst

That's amazing.  I have a couple of this style tender in my collection, but I could not figure out how to attach the wire that goes to the light socket.  It also show that a three volt bulb was originally used foe locomotive that pulled this style tender instead of a one and a half volt bulb that you would use with the locomotive taht pulled the  "Limited"  style tender.  they look like a "C" size battery were in those.

Yes I think the limited tenders are a bit smaller and this battery would not fit in them.  I know my limited tender did not come with a battery and I have never looked closely to see what type of battery it would take.  As I mentioned, the only other engine I have found with a battery in place, was one of the wind-up streamliners and that was a C cell battery.

The post that the wire connects to on this F cell battery is very unique and now the wire connection from the engine makes more sense.

 

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:23 PM

I just want to say that it was nice to visit with Northwoods Flyer at Trainfest in Milwaukee this morning. 

 

Otis

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Posted by strainst on Saturday, November 12, 2011 8:29 PM

Below is a picture of an American Flyer 3216 lumber car that I have just added to my collection.  This version of the 3216 lumber car is not listed in any of my American Flyer reference books nor do I see it in any of their catalogs.  Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Below is a picture on one that sold at Stout Auction back in 2010.

Here is a second picture showing the end of the box the car came in.

Thanks,

strainst

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Sunday, November 13, 2011 2:42 PM

Your car dates to around 1930-1931 and I am basing that on the style of trucks that are mounted on the car.  I have a similar car in my collection.  Your car is definitely an earlier car as it has two brake wheels on it and I know that the late cars only had one brake wheel.

My experience with flyer is that often times the catalog artwork showing the sets remained the same for a number of years, with the actual colors of cars possibly changing.  The log and machinery cars are one of the freight cars that had multiple color variations over the years.  Another freight car that comes to mind are the tank cars, which also had multiple color variations over the years.

It looks like the box that was sold with the car on the Stout auction was an incorrect box for the car as it appears to be labeled 3206 instead of 3216. 

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Sunday, November 13, 2011 6:35 PM

I think photos of similar cars have been posted previously, but I wanted to post them anyway.  These photos represent American Flyer's top-of-the-line freight cars for the period 1925-1927.  I think that although Flyer's cars rival the Ives freight cars of the era, that Ives did a better job on their litho freight cars.  I do not have any of the Ives freight cars in my collection, but attaining their 9 inch litho freight cars is one of my goals.

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:23 PM

Otis B. Drinkwater

I just want to say that it was nice to visit with Northwoods Flyer at Trainfest in Milwaukee this morning. 

 

Otis

Otis,

It was great getting together with you at Trainfest.  Its amazing how quickly time flies when you get two Flyer guys together and they start talking trains and swaping stories.  I'll bet we spent several hours together in total, and we could have probably spent even more time.  The only disappointment was that you didn't wear your American Flyer hat!   Laugh

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:39 PM

strainst,

Its nice to see you here again.  Its been a while.  I agree with the information that Otis has posted, including that the Stout auction seems to have put a car and box together that don't belong together.  Its always fun to come across a variation that hasn't appeared in a book yet.  Congratulations!  I have the same variation in my collection.  I had to go back to the postings about log/machine cars on page 24 just to see if there had been any photos posted of a 3216 variation like yours, and there haven't been. 

Here is my 3216:

 

 

 
I'm missing one of the wire tie downs for my car.  I notice that you are missing the tie downs and several journal boxes.  These are fairly easy to come by and if you watch eBay there are reproductions available.
So now we know that there are at least two examples of this car; both of ours with the two brake wheels, and Otis's example with just one brake wheel.  As I have said before, variations are the spice of life.
 
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:46 PM

I wanted to take an opportunity to thank all of the folks who have been posting lately.  Its great to have so many of you sharing photos of the very unique items in your collections.  I look forward to checking in on the forum and seeing the unusual items that folks have been posting, and to see who is newly posting to the thread, and how many of our regular posters have found new items to post.

That is what this thread was intended to be at its beginning.

Thanks again folks for your time and effort, and keep those photos coming.

 

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Posted by strainst on Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:47 PM

Here are a couple of additional 1107 cars with road names.

  

 

 

Here are a couple of 1107 passenger cars with matching 1108 baggage cars.

 

 

Strainst

 

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:39 AM

Shifting gears to some smaller freight cars. 

The above car dates to approximately 1910, as evidenced by the type II couplers and 3 step frame.  This car appears to have originally been all red with a gold or yellow stripe along the top edge of the car.  Unfortunately, the paint is not in great condition.  The frame of the car is also punched for attaching the 1910 era crane.
This car, although similar to the first car shown, is a 1912 era car, as evidenced by the type III butterfly coupler and the black 2 step frame. 
This tank car is c. 1914 as it has the same frame as the early 1107/1108 cars.  The tank is a 2-piece wooden tank, with the main body comprising a single piece and the dome comprising a dowel inserted into the main body.  The main body of the tank is held to the frame via 2 nails with the 2 red bands being more decorative than functional.   The frame is punched with 6 circular holes, with 4 of the holes (2 on each side) being for the red bands and the other two holes (centered between holes for red bands) being for the nails that attach the body of the tank.  Oddly, I have acquired one of these punched frames that was used on an 1108 baggage car from around 1915.
This is an 1109 gondola from c. 1915 or 1916.  The body features a brown litho with rivet detail and 1109 on the sides.  There is also a green variation of this car.
This car dates to approximately 1917-1918.
Two Illinois Central cars from around 1916 or 1917.  Note that one car has doors and one car does not.  American Flyer sold cars with and without doors in the early days.  I believe the addition/deletion of doors was either a $0.05 or $0.10 difference in price.
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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:26 AM

Empire Express Strikes Back!

My guess is that the above item dates to 1928, based on the two pantographs on the roof.  I believe it to be a very limited production item that was produced for JC Penneys, prior to their settling on the Nation Wide Lines brand line.  I base this on its apparent very limited production and the presence of the Standard Guage Empire Express set, which was produced for JC Penney and sold under the Nation Wide LInes brand, per TCA E-train article. 
The Empire Express branding of Flyer trains appears to have happened in the 1928 era, as evidenced by the following set labels, which are both pasted over Flyer set labels.
The above set box contains a wind-up freight set with 5.5 inch freight cars.
The above set box contains a special variation of the Little American set, in that instead of coming with 1120 passenger and observation cars, it came with aFlyer 1096 engine and  two matching red 1107 passenger cars.  Oddly, I have also seen the above set with slightly different set components, so it could be that this special set could have been packaged with mismatched components at the factory, as they were trying to use old inventory?
I have heard of the above label being used on other Flyer sets, including a Blue Bird set from this era.
Lastly, the following Empire Express engine dates to around 1931 and is much more common than the 1196 engine shown previously. 
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Posted by AF53 on Monday, November 21, 2011 10:29 PM

Nice pics Otis and Strainst! Here are some 1116 sand cars!

 

Ca. 1919 - 1928.

 

Ca. 1932 - 1935.

Ray

 

 

Ray

Bayville, NJ

 

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While you're busy making other plans - John Lennon

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Thursday, November 24, 2011 7:58 AM

What is your oldest Train?

Early American Flyer

I saw a recent posting on the Yahoo Groups TCA site and thought the post was interesting it was "What is your oldest Train?"

If asked a month ago, I would have pointed at this set

 

c. 1910 set box, which shows the cover art from the 1910 catalog on the box top.  The cardboard has a greenish tint.  Sets from later years, up to 1914, which used similar boxes do not have the greenish tint to the cardboard
Set Number 9 c. 1910.  Set 9 is only shown in the 1910 American Flyer catalog.  The catalog shows the set having a single 4 window car, engine, and tender with an unusual triangular shaped set of track, which was comprised of 6 curves and 3 straights.  Early track used 3 curved sections to make a complete curve or 6 to make a circle, unlike later track, which required 8 sections to make a circle.
c. 1910 era Flyer engine with early casting and pre clip-in motor
c. 1910 328 tender with green lithograph.
c. 1910 4 window Chicago car in white with red details.
As I said, if asked a month ago, I would have pointed to this as being my oldest train, as it is 101 years old.
However, now ..........?
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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Friday, November 25, 2011 12:14 PM

6.5 inch enameled passenger cars

These late enameled cars appeared in the catalog in 1933-1935 and again in 1938-1939.  There were three body types produced.  A posting on the baggage cars appears back on page 48.

These are the passenger cars.

I have three versions in my collection.

 

 
This is the 1213 variation (D)
 
 
This is 1213 variation (C)
 
 
This is the #235R Pullman - variation (E) - which is the version that appeared in 1939 when Gilbert had taken over the company and changed the numbering system. It also has the curly que coupler.
 
 
Variation (F) is not a part of my collection, but illustrates another color variation that Gilbert produced. This is #235B.
 
 
The cars vary in the type of truck, coupler, lighting, and also in the placement of decals. Observe the variety of decals used on the cars. The very last versions in 1939 235R and 235B have the recessed areas for the door decals, but no decals, and they have a punched window.
 
 
Types of Couplers
 
 
Lighting methods.  The later 1939 cars - 235R and 235B - are not lighted.  Notice too that only the green version is rubberstamped with a number.
 
 
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Posted by wallyworld on Friday, November 25, 2011 12:26 PM

Otis

That 1090 Engine is so representative of the 1920 era in it's aesthetics. I collect art from that period as well and the color combinations of those with the 1090 say as much about the 20's as does art deco from the 30's. One fellow whose works appeal to me is named Willard Elmes who did a lot of commercial work for the Insull Lines.

I have somewhere a B&O "tour guide" from that era that just oozes that 20's stylistic sensibility. If I find it, Ill post it though it is a bit OT. The oranges and greens were for some reason, a real focus. This is one poster I found for the collection.

Another way to put is the emphasis on primary colors as opposed to the last few decades of pastels and even more subtle shades..I think thats why the 1090 and it's family are so appealing but it is seldom remarked on.Like, who would think to put orange as the central focus as in this poster?

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Friday, November 25, 2011 1:54 PM

 

 

As I said, a month ago I would have pointed to my 4 window Chicago car as the oldest in my collection.  However, I now point to this car as the oldest in my collection.

This 3 Window Unpunched Chicago car represents the 1st American Flyer production from 1907.  I suppose that really this pre-dates American Flyer as it's production in 1907 was by a company named Edmonds-Metzel, which in 1908 would start calling their trains American Flyer and in 1910 would change the company name to American Flyer Manufacturing Company.   Since all the experts point to this as being American Flyer, I will agree with them.

 

 

I will say that I never expected to own one of these unpunched 3 window cars and it is in great condition for being 104 years old.

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 8:00 AM

Enough of the early stuff, now for some late steam.  Although the following engines are from the Gilbert era, they were sold with Chicago era cars, so I like them.  I have to say that I have persued the nicest of these engines that I can find. 

 

Some issues for fellow collectors to be aware of, the marker light brackets at the front of the engines break easily and in my opinion affects the value if they are missing.  Also, the steps on the late tenders break easily and again, in my opinion, affect the value.  Although the ladder tops on the tender also go missing, these do not affect the value as much if all of the steps are present on the tender.

 

So to begin, I offer up a 43224 of 1938.  This engine and tender are correct for the set that includes 3 green streamline cars.  I have been told by a long-term TCA member that Gilbert was using up leftover Chicago inventory for this set and that the tender and cars should come in Chicago era boxes, which they did.

Next up is the 43226 engine of 1938.  This engine/tender came to me with 4 blue streamline cars.
In 1939 these engines were re-numbered with a 3 digit numbering system.  Additionally, the engines were generally changed to being all black, with there being no white stripe or red windows.  However, I have seen some engines that have odd features with the 3 digit numbers.  The following 435 engine has a white stripe with black window frames and is 100% original.  I have also seen but not examined closely, these late engines that had red windows.
Next up is the more common variation of the 435.  This engine/tender came to me with 3 red streamline cars and likely dates to 1940.
Note that the American Flyer Lines lettering on this tender is of a smaller size than the previous tender.  I am not sure of the reasons for this difference, whether it was due to passenger versus freight tenders or if it changed due to differing years of production. 
Lastly, the 432, which again has the tender with larger lettering and a freight coupler.
Anyway, hope everyone enjoys these photos.
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Posted by wallyworld on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 10:14 AM

Otis,

The polished details of the reciprocating gear on the 435 really makes this an engine I would covet, the "something" that makes Flyer steam stand out. What was the last year that Flyer made ( not sold) O Gauge?

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 7:13 AM

As for the last year that Flyer made O gauge?  I believe that issue is clouded by WWII.  Flyer is reported to have sold O gauge in 1946, with those items likely assembled from parts made prior to the onset of the war, but who knows.  I believe that some of the early S guage was 3/16th and used the same bodies from the prewar 3/16 O gauge, but with different motors.  I could see some of the parts from the early postwar O gauge items being from parts made both before and after the war, in order to use up some of the prewar parts that may have already been made. 

I guess the last defined years of O gauge would be 1941/1942, with the last items being assembled before the onset of WWII and the order to change production over for the war effort.

 

 

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Posted by Northwoods Flyer on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:05 PM

Otis,

Great post on the steamers. It certainly shows the direction that Flyer was taking before WWII.  They look very powerful and watching them pull a consist of streamlined cars gives you a sense of the fascination that the country had with speed.

Thanks.

6.5 inch enameled passenger cars

This is the third post on these late enamled cars.  Installment #3 looks at the observation cars.

 

The observation cars follow the same changes as we observed in the passenger cars.
 
This is #1217 variation (D).  Type VIII trucks
 

 
#1217 Variation (C) Type XII trucks
 
 
When the changes occured in 1939 the Observation received the number 236.  This is Variation (E) - 236R. Type XII trucks, Type X coupler
 
 
Variation (F)  236B
 
 
Comparison of couplers
 
 
Once again the number of the car does not appear on the body of the car. Only the green variation has the #1217 rubberstamped on the bottom.
 
 
Placement of decals
 
 
Here are the observation decks.  Notice that the decorative valance is white on the green variation and red to match the body of the car on the other two versions.  The valance on the blue 236B also matches the blue color of the body of the car.
 
 
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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Thursday, December 1, 2011 12:55 PM

Northwoods,

Not sure if you mentioned it, but some of these early 6.5 inch enamel cars came on 4-wheel frames.  I have a set that dates to around 1933/34 that has red enamel 6.5 inch cars on 4-wheel frames. 

Not sure if they made the cars in green on 4-wheel frames or not. 

O.

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Posted by Otis B. Drinkwater on Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:07 PM

Here are pictures of the 4-wheel 6.5 inch enamel cars.  My set has two coaches and an observation.  I know that a 4-wheel baggage was made, but it was not part of the set I have.   I have seen these cars as both lighted and unlighted with 4-wheel frames.  My cars are numbered 1211 and 1212 and according to greenberg's would date to post 1933.

 

 

 

 

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