Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[SkyArcher]

Here is one I didn't see anywhere.  Does anybody have any model or date information on this AF Hiawatha??

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

 Hi SkyArcher,

Welcome back.  What you have is an example of one of Flyer's uncataloged engines.  It is a Type XXIV (according to Greenberg's designation) sheet metal Hiawatha. It is most likely the #634 engine.  It was cataloged in 1936 and 1937.  It came in both a windup version and the electric version that you have here.  The wind up version and the electric version each pulled freight or passenger sets.  The engine with the rounded back is usually assigned to pull the streamlined passenger cars, while the square back version of the engine pulled a freight consist.  Flyer did not stick strictly to that practice.  The tender that you have is a 3192 Type X tender.

This style of sheet metal Hiawatha was at the lower end of the price range.  It must have been very popular.  It shows up on eBay quite frequently, and most examples indicate that the engine and what ever consist it pulled were well played with.

Thanks for posting.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for the information.  That really helps!!  I just scored the rest of the set consisting of 1223 coaches.  They in the same beautiful shape as the Hiawatha.

[strainst]

"Thanks for the information.  That really helps!!  I just scored the rest of the set consisting of 1223 coaches.  They in the same beautiful shape as the Hiawatha. "

Here is some additional information on the Hiawatha locomotives that are powered by the electric motors.  There are two versions of these locomotives. The most common ones are the ones that just powered by the motor but the second version has a motor and a whistle unit located in the body of the locomotive.  It uses the same whistle unit that is in the Type XX uncataloged locomotive.  American Flyer mounted the whistle unit to the rear of the motor in the Type XX locomotive, but in the Hiawatha locomotive, the unit is mounted to the front of the motor and behind the headlight.  I can’t tell from your picture if there is a whistle unit in your locomotive, but if it does then you have a bonus with your engine.  The whistle unit is a mechanical whistle and while I have had a couple of locomotives with these whistles, I have found that they either work or they don’t.  If they don’t work, I have not found a way to get inside of them as they seem to be sealed unit.  When they do work they have nice soft whistle that is activate by the rotation of the wheels.

Strainst

[SkyArcher]

I have the whistle.  I thought it was a chugger.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Strainst,

Thanks for the additional information on the sheet metal Hiawatha.  So far that little beauty has eluded me.  I have a freight tender and most of the freight cars, but the engine has been a tough item to win on the bay.

American Flyer 3025 Wrecker/Crane Car and Lionel 2810 Crane

When you see these two cars together it hardly seems like you can make a comparison between them.

 

 

Flyer's 3025 was cataloged from 1936 through 1938.  It appeared in the 1939 catalog as the #416 Wrecker/Crane.  This example is Greenberg's variation (C).

 

 

Lionel's 2810 Crane was introduced in 1930 and was cataloged until Lionel stopped production because of the war.  This example is in the later colors and unfortunately it currently lacks its hook.

 

 

The 2810 has a lot of play value with the number of control dials and options that it offers.

 

 

It also has a unique brace on the bottom that helps to stabilize the car when the crane rotates on the platform.

 

 

It clamps nicely to tubular track, but it won't work on Fastrack.

 

 

Both cranes swivel on the car.

 

 

 

Both cars gave their owners an opportunity to pick up and load freight.  But in a side by side comparison I would pick the 2810.  That's saying a lot for a loyal American Flyer fan.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Lionel 2813 Cattle Car

The final entry in the Flyer - Lionel comaprison of large freight cars from the late prewar era is an offering from Lionel. 

 

The 2813 Cattle Car received its automatic box coupler in 1938, as did all of the cars in the 2800 series. Lionel had been offering the cattle car for quite a few years prior to this as the 813.  In 1936 it was offered in this color combination of cream sides with maroon roof and door guides.

Sadly, during this time period Flyer did not offer a cattle car in the large freight cars (9 1/2") , or in the small freight cars (6") in Narrow Gauge.  They did offer a cattle car in the Wide Gauge line.

 

 

I have always thought this was odd considering that during this time frame Chicago was the heart of the meat packing industry with the Chicago stock yards being a very busy place.

 

The 2813 has doors that open.

 

 

It also has plated tags.

 

 

 

I have always liked Lionel's offering.  Its one of my collecting fantasies to discover a factory sample or prototype of a cattle car that American Flyer designed but never put into production in the Narrow Gauge line.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[ADCX Rob]

Anyone know what set this is?

Rob

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi Rob,

I'll take a crack at identifying the set.  The four blue-green cars in the set: 3 - 3171 Pullmans and 1 - 3172 Observation were cataloged in that color in 1937 and 1938. The Type VIII trucks on your cars and the tender were used from 1933 to 1938.  Its hard to make out too much about the engine in the set, but the blue cars were not shown with your tender in the catalog either year.

 

 

The 1936 catalog shows the same four cars, and your tender in set 1720-R BALTIMORE & OHIO  Passenger.  The catalog illustration shows the cars as being a silver color.  However the catalog text says "The lighted passenger cars and the observation are finished in full enamel with brass trim. (Color subject to change)."  I think the silver color is really supposed to be blank, so that any color passenger car could be used in the set.

 I am going to guess that you have what Flyer called their B&O locomotive.  If you can provide a better picture I might be able to tell you a bit more.  Does the engine have a red firebox light?

Do you know anything about the history of your set?

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby  

Northwoods Flyer

[ADCX Rob]

Another pic(4th car not in pic):

The correct consists for the engine, and cars, if they are not now matched up, are in my basement somewhere.  They all came from the original owners, my cousins, who got them new in the 1930's.

Rob

[Northwoods Flyer]

Rob,

Thanks for posting the additional photo of the engine.  I did a little more research and I am not sure that I have identified your engine correctly.  It appears to be a Type X engine casting. The only time that the Type X engine was paired up with the the tender you have (Type IV) was in 1939 with the Double Header set.

The engine that you have was not cataloged in 1936.  So there are a couple of options here. 1) You have the correct consist and tender for a 1936 set, but the engine isn't the one normally catalolged with the set.   2) You might have a different tender stored away somewhere that actually belongs with your set, and then this is a set from a different year.  In any case, the set was cataloged sometime between 1936 and 1938 when the blue-green cars with silver roofs were cataloged.

What other Flyer equipment did you inherit from your cousins? Inquiring minds want to know. 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

Christmas - the day after - 1918

  You had been pouring over the American Flyer catalog since late October and by early November you had made you train wishes known to all and sundry.  The train on the cover of the catalog had captured your imagination and you had had numerous dinner table discussions about it.  Christmas day resulted in your instant promotion from railfan to rail magnate.  Santa had delivered American Flyer's top of the line #16 clockwork set with a huge steam engine and a fantastic green and gold Union Pacific passenger consist.  You spent all Christmas day on the floor winding up the engine and letting it roll.  The next day your next door neighbor, who happened to work for the railroad, had dropped over, admired your empire and had shown you some tricks of the trade to get even more mileage out of your crack passenger consist - thoroughly oiled wheel axles, a touch of grease on the inside (but not on the top!!) of the curved track to reduce rail/wheel friction, tight track connections, and carefully leveled roadbed had all resulted in a train that ran and ran. 

Set #16 from 1918/1919

 

You were extremely happy and Dad mentioned this to Mom and said he was glad you were because if the catalog had been any indicator he thought the chances were that you wouldn't be so happy.  He smiled when he said this and both he and Mom got a good laugh.  This went right over your head and you just chalked it up to the peculiar ways of adults.  It was only 10 years later when you found your thoroughly thumbed copy of the 1918 catalog at the bottom of a dresser drawer you were cleaning that you finally understood Dad's comment - the boy on that cover does indeed look to be the most disappointed kid in the world!

 

[mersenne6]

Christmas - the day after - 1930

  You received your first American Flyer set in 1928.  It was a passenger set headed by a box cab electric locomotive.  It was a great set and you spent endless hours running it and building stations and signals to make it look more like the real thing.  The only problem, as far as you were concerned, was the engine.  You lived in Ohio and you had never seen a box cab electric.  Your Uncle Frank, who lived in New York City and came to visit a couple of times a year, assured you that such things did exist and he had even taken a picture of one for you.  Still, your world was dominated by the big steam engines that you could see on your daily walk to school.

  There hadn't been much in the 1929 American Flyer catalog that had piqued your interest - you had mentioned the new Flyer train stations and made a comment or two about illuminated signals but you didn't press the issue and Christmas 1929 found other items under the Christmas tree.  In the late fall of 1930 when Dad brought home the catalog for 1930, things changed - American Flyer was offering STEAM ENGINES!  For a couple of months that was all you could think and talk about - a steam engine for your empire to make it look like the world you lived in.  

  Christmas morning found four wrapped presents under the tree - one from Santa, one from Mom and Dad, and two from Uncle Frank.  Santa's gift - A Steam Engine - a jet black #3195 and a #3189 tender!  Mom and Dad had provided a station that looked a lot like the one down on Depot Street...and Uncle Frank had sent a clock "like the big one in Grand Central" and an illuminated semaphore...Christmas day saw your empire grow and the day after you renamed and relocated your home made station.  It was now "Grand Central" and just to make sure Uncle Frank would not mistake it for anything else you put the clock and the semaphore next to it.

[mersenne6]

Christmas - the day after - 1940

  You received your first American Flyer set in 1938 - the #1 Passenger set with a crackle gray engine and tender and bright red enameled passenger cars (pp.25).  That same year your friend from down the street had received the #2 Freight set (pp.24).  At the time you were more interested in passenger trains and he had a big interest in freight trains so both of you were thrilled with the trains you had received. As time passed and you and he continued your ongoing discussions about trains you began to appreciate his point of view with respect to freight so when the 1940 catalog appeared you started thinking about the possibility of a freight train.  In 1939 Santa had added a pair of switches to the layout and for your birthday you had been given an additional switch for a siding as well as a #104 station.

 

  Looking over the catalog you noticed the freight cars had changed and the catalog, while not printed in color, indicated that the engine that looked like your passenger engine was now offered in a matte black and nickel finish which made it look a lot more like the real steam engines you saw running all the time.  Christmas morning found American Flyer set #4002 under your tree. You were able to run the freight set on Christmas day but it wasn't until the day after Christmas that Dad helped you wire your empire for two train operation.  You spent all of December 26 switching freight cars in and out of the siding and running saw-by patterns with your passenger and freight consists.

 

Set #4002  - 1940

[ivesboy]

Northwoods,

   I dont want to jack your thread so i figured id ask first. I am an Ives collector and thought readers might find an article on FLyer-Ives transition wide gauge interesting. WOuld it be ok to do a write up and post it?

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hello ivesboy,

Its nice to hear from you.  Thanks for asking about a post.  I think it would be a welcome addition to the thread.  There hasn't been anything posted about those transition cars from what I can remember.  I personally don't have any in my collection, but I think that part of the history of the three companies involved is fascinating.  I look forward to reading your post.  Please feel free to post anything about American Flyer from the Pre War era.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[ivesboy]

 

In 1928 the Ives Manufacturing corporation of Bridgeport Ct. was sued by creditors and filed for bankruptcy. Ives management wished for a private sale to another local firm however the courts turned it down. At auction the Ives Co, all its assets and factory were sold to a representative of Lionel for $73,250 dollars. 

Lionel had purchased the firm jointly with American Flyer of Chicago. It is even speculated that A.C. Gilbert also fronted some of American Flyer’s contribution. The two firms quickly sent staff to Ives, who in cooperation with Ives management, reorganized the line to lower production costs. Ives rolling stock had been laboriously constructed. Mostly made up of small pieces of tin, soldered together and often hand detailed. These cars were probably sold at a loss. The new management team quickly stopped production of the old car bodies and replaced them with their own products. 

American Flyer gave Ives their new 19” passenger cars as well as their new line of freight cars. Why Coleman agreed to this has been a long debate among collectors. Most agree with “Doc” Robbie who once said it was in return for the Ives 1134 casting which became the 4694 and 4660. These while modified became Flyer’s first wide gauge steamers. 

When the 1928 Catalog rolled out it was filled with hybrid pieces. The subject of this segment is the American Flyer bodied freight cars. Ives offered 9 freight cars in 1928-29. These consisted of the 20-190 tank car, 191 Coke car, 20-192 boxcar, 20-193 stock car, 20-195 caboose, 194 hopper, 20-194 and 20-198 gravel cars, 196 flatcar, and the 197 lumber car. Of these 5 used flyer bodies with Ives trucks. The rest remained all Ives. 

We can assume Ives received the raw product. Plain unpainted car bodies with their required trim. Ives then painted them in their own colors. And assembled them onto Ives trucks with special brackets. It was in these years Ives touted the presence of their “color lab.” In the 29’ catalog it is described that these engineers laboriously worked to provide the most striking color schemes for their products. One can hardly disagree. They are some of the most beautiful trains ever made.

 

A new feature released in 1928 by Ives was the snake pull coupler. It pulled from the truck pivot point instead of the end of the car body. It was intended to allow rolling stock to track better and it worked wonderfully. However the Flyer freights were not equipped with snake pull. Below is a detail of the snake pull arrangement on a Flyer bodied Black Diamond Express pullman. 

The Flyer bodied freights remained in the catalog through 1929. Sometime late that year or early in 1930, Lionel bought out Flyer’s shares and replaced the FLyer cars with their own bodies again modified with Ives trucks and couplers. The Lionel cars featured Snake pull. After the 1930 production had ceased, Cohen closed the factory and moved the operations to Irvington. Thus ended the glorious history of “Americas greatest toymakers.” 

These transition pieces, from both manufacturers, are scarce and desirable. A combination of small production runs, and the short amount of time in which they were produced have made them some of the most prized trains ever manufactured. Over the next few evenings i will describe each car and it’s variations in detail.

Most images from my personal collection or courtesy Dave McEntarfer and the Ives Train Society. The greatest collector organization on Earth! www.ivestrains.org.

[ivesboy]

The first of these cars in the series was the 20-192 tank car. The previous Ives version is shown below. 

The first of the FLyer bodied cars was enameled orange and came with black highlights. This car was offered through mid-1929. 

This car is also known to come with C&O decals. It is not known by me if these were promotional or regular production items. I would have to go with promotional.

Although all of these cars are rare, yes rare applies here. The scarcest of all is the one with Flying Colonel Blue highlights.

The last version of this car catalogued was a real Frankenstein. It used a Lionel 215 body on a FLyer frame with Ives trucks. It was made from mid 1929-30. 

[ivesboy]

The next car in the series was the 191 Coke car. I will include it for completeness, even though it was all Ives. The 1928-30 variation is shown below. 

This car is a perfect example of the costly construction techniques employed by Ives. Each slat is an individual piece of tin, hand soldered in place and detailed by hand! Over 80 solder joints on this car!!!

[ivesboy]

Next comes the 20-192 Merchandise car. It is all Flyer except for the trucks and came in 3 variations. 

The first is the rarest. Green with a red roof. It was never catalogued and was only sold as a separate sale item. I just got one of these out of a house with a New Yorker passenger set and a rabble of freights which proves the separate sale idea. 

The second version, and in my opinion the most attractive of all the 28-29 freights is shown below. It was enameled yellow with a cadet blue roof. 

The final version was also Yellow, but with a red roof. It was included in the Circus sets and can be found with or without rubber stamped markings. 

[ivesboy]

Three versions of the Flyer bodied 20-193 Livestock Transportation car exist. The first was painted in the same colors as the scarce merchandise car. Green with a red roof. It is believed to have been available in 1928 only and was uncatalogued in these colors. 

Next we have the car in orange with a maroon roof. 1928-29.

And lastly in the circus colors, agin with or without rubber stamped circus decoration.

[Northwoods Flyer]

ivesboy,

 

  great information and photos.  I am looking forward to more posts on these transition cars.  I had no idea there were this many variations, but given the parts available and the goals of Lionel and Flyer it makes sense.

After Christmas 1927

I was intrigued by Mersenne6's posts about the days after Christmas, so I thought I would go back and look at some of my favorite sets and items that I would have enjoyed playing with after Christmas, or playing with the things my buddies got.

One of my favorite catalogs is the one from 1927

 

 

It has some fascintating sets that were offered. I am focusing on the Wide Gauge set called The Commander

 

 

While I have had the cars for quite a while, I finally got the matching engine shortly before Christmas this year.

 

 

 

The 4653 was only cataloged in1927

 

 

Its number obviously distinguishes it, but it is also the only year that red windows appear.

 

 

The identifying tabs are brass colored with black writing, again a distinguishing feature from 1927.

 

 

 

 

The Commander set comes with two 4141 Pullmans - Bunker Hill, in orange with red windows - only available in 1927.

 

 

 

And the 4142 Observation - Yorktown in orange with red windows, again only available in 1927.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I were a child receiving this in 1927 I would have felt like a king.  In fact I still feel like a king owning it 83 years later.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[mersenne6]

ivesboy, I second Northwoods Flyer's comment - your posts are a great addition to this thread -I'm looking forward to the next installment.

[ivesboy]

Thanks for the kind words gentlemen! Im in the process of selling off most of my Lionel to focus more on Ives and Flyer wide gauge. I steered away from Flyer due to the difficulty in obtaining parts there for awhile. I've since became much more crafty and have a father in law who is a hobby machinist! That kinda makes things easier. I'm working on paying off an Ives Chief set now and next ill be hunting for a Flying Colonel. Any leads would be appreciated!

[ivesboy]

Ok back to business!

    The next car in the series was the 20-194/20-198 gravel or sand car. This car was again all Flyer except for the trucks and couplers. 

    The first was numbered 20-194 and was enameled flat black. It was only available in 1928 and is very elusive. 

     For 1929 production Ives changed the number to 20-198. They probably realized that the 194 number was already taken by the hopper. It must have caused some confusion on order forms!

    The 1929 car was enameled in a semi-gloss black and besides the color and plates was the same as the 20-194.

   Here is a close-up of the plates.

[ivesboy]

   Next comes the 20-195 caboose. It again is all Flyer except for the trucks and couplers. It came with a Cardinal red body and frame, dark red/maroon roof, and a cadet blue cupola roof. I know of no variations. It was produced through 1929. 

[ivesboy]

 

   For the sake of completeness i will show the Ives bodied cars from the period as well to show the entire line.

   Here is the 196 flatcar. It was all Ives. Enameled yellow orange It had true snake pull couplers.

   Detail of the truck mounting and couplers.

[ivesboy]

 

   Here is the beautiful black and Cardinal red 194 hopper. It was all Ives and featured operating hopper doors which were opened by the scissor clips seen at the end. This car can be found with silver or gold rubber stamped lettering. A rare 1930 version has decal lettering. It also has true snake track pull. 

[balidas]

I also appreciate the pix and info, being myself interested in standard and wide gauge trains.

[Northwoods Flyer]

ivesboy,

  Thanks for posting the photos and for providing all of the information.  This a great addition to the thread.  What would you recommend as a good book on Ives for someone who knows very little about their train production (meaning me ).  Is the Greenberg guide a good book to start with?

I have known about these transition cars, and I know that they are Wide gauge.  It made me wonder why it is that during this transition period Flyer and Lionel did not do the same type of thing with the Narrow Gauge (O gauge) line.  Do you have any insight into this?  Was the the o gauge line of Ives even produced at this time?

I have mentioned before that I have been disappointed that Flyer didn't produce a stock car in the Narrow Gauge line during this time. Inspired by your posts of transition cars I decided to take a bit of creative license and create a Narrow Gauge transition car - the only known example of an Ives stock car and Flyer Type VIII trucks. (Yes I know that the type VIII trucks weren't used until 1933, after the transition era).

  

   

Thanks for the inspiration.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer