Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[mersenne6]

 

  I have a small area in the house for displaying some of the trains/accessories.  I change the display every month or so.  Currently I have 6 Flyer sets on display.  Pre-war Flyer makes up a large part of the collection.  My interest in Flyer was the result of a "poorly written" article on toy trains that appeared in the local paper many many years ago.  The piece was illustrated with a picture of some toy trains sitting on 3 rail track.  One of the trains was a 3/16" Flyer Royal Blue which I "knew" didn't run on 3 rail.  A week or so later I mentioned the article to one of the long time collectors and I commented on the "fact" that the writer couldn't even get the trains and their track right.  His response was to tell me, in so many words, that I was wrong and that Flyer had been 3 rail before WWII and that they had originally made their 3/16" for O gauge track.  My first reaction upon learning this was "I've go to see one of these things" and, as luck would have it, at the very next train meet I found a 3/16" Royal Blue for 3 rail which I promply bought....and with that purchase the hunt for pre-war Flyer was on.

  Getting back to the stations - the #97,98,99,105,107 series had the same approach to roof colors as the 96/104.  The thing to remember about 97 and 98 is that these numbers applied to two different stations - a passenger and the freight which you have shown in this series of posts.

  The first 97,98,99 series had

  97 - green roof-no embossing , gray base, litho walls, doors, and windows - Door cut out and bent back, no lights.

  98 - red roof, window panes cut out and frosted plastic inserted - single lamp inside

        - there is a variation of the #98 all of the above except a green roof and instead of an actual lamp it has a large hole with "ears" punched into the center of the base.  The hole will accomodate a small porcelain lamp socket which would have been very common in the 1920's. In short, the station didn't have a lamp but was built so the budding railroad CEO could upgrade the station as finances permitted.  As far as I know Flyer never gave this version a number nor mentioned it in their catalogs.

  #99 - red roof-no embossing, everything else like #98 but with the addition of two external lamps.

  #105 - red roof - no embossing - two external lamps - lithoed walls, doors, and windows.  Windows not cut out, door cut out and bent back.

  Finally in 1928, along with the general upgrade of the accessory/station line the station became the Terminal Station #107 - orange embossed roof with green dormer and brass tag with the station name, side lithography same as all of the above, windows cut out with frosted plastic inserts, a single inside light and two outside lights.  Base embossed to look like flagstone and panted a reddish maroon.  The only variations I've seen on the #107 are the external lamps and the paint color of the base.  The early external lamps were painted green on the outside with white reflectors whereas the later versions were all brass stampings.  The base at some point changed from the reddish maroon to a bright red.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Scott and Jim,

I love the look of lithographed tinplate, which must be the reason that I continue to seek it out.

Scott ,

I love the picture of your nephew. I can remember playing with our family's trains for hours as a child. My favorite memory is of laying on the living room floor watching the trains speed around the track.  Each time the headlight would shine on the metal track as it approached I remember feeling a surge of excitement.  I also remember wishing that I was a person small enough to be standing on the station platform as the train pulled in or rushed past.  I know that one of the reasons I collect is because it puts me back in touch with those memories.  I am happy to share my toys with others Scott, that's why I keep posting pictures of them here.

mersenne6,

Thank you for all of the great information to help with identification.  For a long time I paid more attention to collecting Flyer S, until I started looking at the items that my dad had purchased second hand right after the war. I became interested in them as well and discovered the whole world of O Gauge Flyer.  I have enjoyed learning the history of the company, especially as it relates to the contemporary historical scene.  Many of the articles I have read give insight into the mindset of the people who ran the company as they tried to produce toys that the consumer would purchase.  I also like to see the ways in which Flyer adaptively used the items that they had on hand.  I also have this desire to support the underdog, so seeing how Flyer competed with its larger competitors in the market is a great study in psychology and strategy as well.

Here is a picture of my 102 Central Station. 

 

I believe this is the second of two variations that they produced. Do you have a 110 Station or its reproduction?  While it isn't lithographed, it definitely is a monumental and impressive piece.  I have had a collecting goal of some day setting up a running example of Flyer's Colonial City that they showed in the Wide Gauge sections of their catalogs.  I consider that a lofty goal.

Thanks again everyone for your participation in this thread.  I have looked forward to the posts.

 Greg

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

  As much as I love the tinplate accessories, my real love is the trains that Flyer produced. In the late 20's they introduced several named train sets that were very popular and which sold many sets.  They show up quite frequently, and as with all of Flyer production there are plenty of variations.  I have two versions of the train called "The Oriental Limited".  Its a 4 unit set consisting of the engine, baggage, coach, and observation.  If I have done my research correctly the set on the left was produced in 1927 - the only year that it had red windows in the lithography. I believe the set on the right is from 1929.  All years other than 1927 had a blue color to the windows.  My set also has some nifty opaque windows that I believe were added later.  This is the only set that I have seen like this.  It gives the cars a nice glow as they rattle down the track.

The engine on the left is a 3012, on the right a 3112

 

Baggage cars which had no identifying numbers or name on them.

 

Coaches, which were typically called Paul Revere

 

 

And observatons which were called Lexington.  Its not uncommon to find the names on the observation and coach reversed, or even one side of the car will have Lexington and the other side will have Paul Revere.

 

 

They make very attractive sets, as do the other named sets. I have several other of these to show.

Does anyone have other variations of this set?

As I look at my Wide Gauge sets I see that the Yorktown and Bunker Hill cars come with the orange or blue window colors as well.  I wonder if that was also typical of 1927-1928?

Greg

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

  Allow me to introduce you to The Bluebird.  This is another one of the named trains that Flyer marketed in the late 20's.  I don't have the catalogs yet to verify this but I believe that the set first appeared in the catalog in 1927.  It is another 4 unit set consisting of an electric outline engine, baggage, coach and observation.

 

In the 1927 set I believe that the engine was the 3013

In 1928 - 1929 I believe that it was headed by the 3113.  The set that was passed down through our family had this 3113 with the three cars.

 

Left 3013                              Right 3113

 

 

I have two identical sets of cars, although there are some variations in the cars that are included in the sets.

Baggage

 

Coach

 

 

Observation

 

 

 

This final picture makes me very sad, but it taught me a very valuable lesson.  As I said, the 3113 and its 3 cars were a part of the family trains even before I was born.  I remember laying on the living room floor at Christmas watching it circle the tree.  Even back in the late '50's the engine wheels had begun to deteriorate so it had a distinctive wobble as it rolled down the tracks.  It was known affectionately as the Toonerville Trolley  - obviously it wasn't, but that is the name we all knew it by.  Years later when I came into possession of the set (about 20 years ago) I was very new at collecting.  I decided to display the train I had enjoyed so much as a child.  Unfortunately I put it in a place where direct sunlight beat down on the side facing the window.  I had no idea that the lithography would be affected.  All of the cars have been sun damaged in this way on one side.  I didn't realize it was happening until I moved them to dust them one day and I was horrified.  I have the second set of cars and the 3013 because I wanted to replace the set I had damaged, but being the sentimental guy I am, I ended up keeping the damaged set too.  In any case, let my experience be a lesson and a warning to be careful in the way you display your trains.

 

 

A sadder but wiser,

Greg   Northwoods Flyer

 

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Greg,

Beautiful pre war.  Please keep posting.  It has been busy around here and not much time for trains.

Jim

[Northwoods Flyer]

Here is another Pre-War O gauge set. I believe this was shown in the 1926 or 1927 catalog. I do not have either of those catalogs yet, so I am going by information from the Greenberg guide, where the cars for this set are pictured.  It is another of their typical 4 unit sets.  This set came with some very nice repainting of the roofs, and I believe the frames, and some new wheels.  It at least gives me an idea what it would have been like to own some of these beauties straight out of the box.  It runs like a top.

The engine is a 3011 -  number plate on one side

"American Flyer Lines"  plate on the other

 

 

Ahh now there is a face only an American Flyer enthusiast could love

 

 

Baggage  -  numbered 1205    the set in Greenberg has an unnumbered baggage, and no listing for a maroon 1205 baggage with a black roof.  Perhaps this is a set that is a marriage of several pieces from different origins.   I think these cars are the same color as the Broadway Limited cars.

Coach   numbered 1206

 

Observation   -  also numbered 1206.  I'm guessing they had plenty of 1206 coaches lithographed that they modified to use as observations.

There are several other sets from this era that I would like to have, including the Broadway Limited set and the Prairie State set, and a yellow and green Oriental Limited set.  I have plenty of hunting to do for the next few years.

So the focus has been O gauge Pre-War Flyer for a while.  Perhaps its time to look at some of the Wide Gauge production.

To be continued...............

 

Greg

 

 

[rogruth]

All very nice.If anyone has the prewar NYC hudson and/or the PRR switcher [4 or 6 wheel,I don't remember which]I would like to see them.I think they were well proportioned and nicely detailed for the time,late 1930's.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi rogruth, and ,

Edit 7/2021:  The original link to an ebay listing no longer exists  This is a photo of the Flyer Hudson that I currently have in my collection.  -  Northwoods Flyer

Is this the engine that you were thinking of?  I found this one on eBay, its a repaint.  I don't have one like it myself, but it is a collecting goal of mine for 2008.  I don't have the switcher or a picture at the moment.  Perhaps someone else will post it, or I will when I find it.  I agree the proportions and general "heft" of these Flyer engines just feels right.

Greg

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama,saving for a trainarama,saving for a trainarama, .  .  .  . I'm slipping,    saving for a trainarama,

Jim 

[mersenne6]

   I'm sure this has been asked many times but I can't seem to find anything - how are you getting pictures to accompany your posts?  If there's some simple way I'll add a few more to the thread.

[rogruth]

Greg,

That could be the one.I had an uncle that had those two locos,got then in 1939 and 1940.When he died they were to go to me bu,unfortunately for me,they were stolen about two years before he died.There were also about 30 cars that were taken.We have one train show a year in our area but these never show up.Would like to see them again.Thank you.

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6

   I'm sure this has been asked many times but I can't seem to find anything - how are you getting pictures to accompany your posts?  If there's some simple way I'll add a few more to the thread.

 

mersenne6,

I asked the same question and had great support from other participants.

It is a relatively simple process, and if I can do it, you will be able to as well. 

The first step is to establish an account with an online photo hosting site.  There were several that were suggested to me but I tried Shutterfly and I have stuck with it.  http://www.shutterfly.com/

I take the digital pictures of my items, store them on my computer and then upload them and store them at my shutterfly account.  You can set up a number of "albums" and organize your pictures any way you like on the site.

When I want to add them to my post on the thread I keep the message box open and open a second window with shutterfly.  I  have the picture I want in the viewing window on shutterfly (this will make sense once you see how the site is set up).  I copy the picture from shutterfly and paste it into the message as I am writing it, (or after I have written it).

And like magic there it is.  I was very impressed with myself the first time I did it. When I posted I didn't blackout the whole eastern seaboard.

 

Edit 2/2021  And I can't tell you how many times I have done it since.  Northwoods Flyer

I hope this works for you.  It would be great to see pictures of your collection.

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, .  .  .  . I'm slipping,    saving for a trainarama,

Jim 

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, .  .  .  .   Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.

All Aboard!  

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

Greg,

That could be the one.I had an uncle that had those two locos,got then in 1939 and 1940.When he died they were to go to me bu,unfortunately for me,they were stolen about two years before he died.There were also about 30 cars that were taken.We have one train show a year in our area but these never show up.Would like to see them again.Thank you.

rogruth,

Sorry to hear about your loss.  I know how much I enjoy having the "family trains"  They have far more sentimental value than anything else.  They are all operator quality, but I know that the major operators were my family members.  In some way I feel like I am preserving some small part of the history of other families with my collection.  I have often said, "If this train could talk I wonder what stories it would tell of the day it was opened on Christmas, or how many Christmas trees it has run around, or layouts it has run on."  I hope you have the opportunity to own items like the ones that were stolen, or at least enjoy looking at them.

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

Imagine that it is 1925.  You are looking through one of the magazines that are delivered to your house. Suddenly there in front of you is an advertisement from your favorite toy maker, American Flyer. There are sketches and a description of a new train that they are going to produce, something that they are calling Wide Gauge trains.  The trains look great and you begin to hatch a plan of what to ask Santa for Christmas.  

Its Christmas morning and there is a huge box under the tree, you tear open the wrappings and see the lable  American Flyer.  You open the box, and this is what you find.........

(Of course in 1925 it looked a lot better)  This is the 4019, produced from 1925 - 1927.  It was Flyer's first entry into the large train market.  Lionel had been producing this size train for a while already and now Flyer was set to compete.  This first set included the 4019 and three cars;

Baggage car #4040

 

Coach  -  America

 

And Observation   Pleasant View

 

 

You take them out and compare them to your other train set.  The new train is huge!

 

 

 

You can hardly wait to post the pictures of your new train on the internet, oh wait, you will have to wait 80 years to do that. You will just have to have the guys in to play with them on the living room floor instead.  Push the furniture out of the way, here comes the train!

Greg

[mersenne6]

 

  Ok, Northwoods, thanks for the info now let's see what we shall see.

  You mentioned the American Flyer Prairie State Set

 

  Here's one.

[mersenne6]

 

  The predecessor to the 1929 Prairie State Set was Train Set #16 in 1924.  The set came with a station and a paper mache tunnel (note- the tunnel in the picture is a later version - not one from 1924).  The locomotive was the largest of the AF clockwork trains.  This one has a very strong spring and, as long as the wheels on the passenger cars are well oiled, it will loop several times with the whole consist.

 

  

                             

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6,

I'm glad the information helped. Thanks for posting the photos. I hope this will encourage you to post even more. 

I do not have any clockwork engines in my collection at this time, although I find them very interesting and they are an important part of the history of the items produced by Flyer.  I had to draw the line somewhere...at least for now. Who knows what direction my collecting will take in the future.

You mention that the set came with a station and a paper mache tunnel.  It motivated me to go find some of the tunnels that I have in storage.

 I think these may be from shortly after 1925. They are not labled with names.

I played with several of these when I was a child, and it amazes me that they have held up so well considering the material that they are made of.  I have a Wide Gauge version that I will post later.

Greg

[mersenne6]

 

  American Flyer Tunnels - a listing 

  The tunnel with the set is the short one in your series of pictures. As with their stations, 1928 was the year Flyer gave their tunnels names.  Prior to 1928 they were just tunnels with different catalog numbers.  They are

    O Gauge

    251 - Hudson - 8 inches long

    252 - Hoosac - 11 inches long

    253 - Moffat - 15 inches long

   Standard Gauge

   4254 - Allegheny 19 1/2 inches long

   4257 - Cascade (with two telegraph poles) - 23 inches long 

    American Flyer 6 1/2 inch litho gondolas

While Ives cornered the market as far as litho boxcars are concerned Flyer was the name if you wanted litho variety for your gondola string.  The mid sized gondola litho started with a "generic" litho in either red or green with the simple label "Sand Car" to one side of the car.  The number 1113 was supposed to be reserved for the 4 wheel version and 1116 was supposed to be reserved for 8 wheels but, as with so many other things about Flyer - whatever was ready for use on the assembly line was used. (This same thing occurs with the boxcars - 1112 was supposed to be 4 wheel and 1115 was supposed to be 8 but you can find the numbers on either wheel arrangement).

     

                                  

 The first cars, like the one above, were made in 1919.

  The litho quickly got more interesting:

                                       

PRR - Orange

 

 

                                                  

 PRR - Green

 

                                  

NYC Dark Green

 

 

           

CB&Q Red

 

                             

  The 6 1/2 inch gondolas were made from 1919-1935.  In addition to those above Flyer also made 6 1/2 gondolas for Nation Wide Lines.  I've seen these in both green and red.

[QueensNY]

mersenne6 you can use photobucket to store you pictures and then post them here. Here is my AF 4692. If anybody knows where i can get parts for this please let me know. I know about Olsen but they do not have the lever assembly. Thanks. Been running for 70+ years and still going.

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[Northwoods Flyer]

Here is my Wide Gauge tunnel.  It is another example of variations in Flyer production.  The Greenberg guide lists this as produced in 1928, but the paper label should have a different spelling of Allegheny.

The cars are o gauge, from Flyer's line of 9" enamel cars, for size reference.

Side one

Side two

 

 

 

End with metal identification tab

 

 

 

And the paper label inside giving the name, gauge and length of 19 1/2 inches.

 

 

Who would guess that even simple things like tunnels could have so much variety

mersenne6,

great pictures of the 6 1/2 litho cars.  I will post some of the 6 1/2 enamel cars next.

Northwoods

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, .  .  .  . I'm slipping,    saving for a trainarama,

Jim 

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, .  .  .  .   Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.

All Aboard!  

Greg

Won a 790 Trainaram on ebay, train budget shot for now but now it will recover. 

[mersenne6]

 

   Lithographed Freight Stations - A Comparison

  Northwoods, those tunnel pictures are very interesting.  I guess the two that I have predate 1928 because neither one has an interior label - I didn't realize Flyer had done anything like that to their tunnels.

  Getting back to your freight shed.  The long base Flyer shed with the crane was the largest of the US made freight stations and the most elaborate.  Ives made a nice sized shed but you have to go across the pond to find freight sheds that are on par with the Flyer station.

            

                                             

  This is a right hand version of the long base Flyer station with a green crane base and green chiminey.  The crane base has slots in it - which makes it one of the leftover #90 station bases.  The decal on the crane is the long one.

  Bing's mid sized freight shed is a very close copy of the Ives station.  Given that Ives, not Lionel, was the competitor for Bing at the time Bing was choosing their offerings to the U.S. market this really isn't too surprising.

 

    

  While not lithography, something even more elaborate than the Ives lookalike is the Bing freight station from 1906

 

All hand painted enamel, a functional crane, and an operating door.

 

 

                                                   

 

  Not to be outdone, KBN made a variety of freight stations as well.  This one, while for the European market, was also exported to the U.S.

 

         

  I don't know too much about Hornby's export efforts but I do know they made a series of fantastic freight sheds for the British market.  This one is their "long base" version with two exterior lights and a manually operated crane.

 

   

...and then there was Carette - no litho but hand painted with an operating crane and station doors ca.1910

 

                                                 

 

  As has been noted on this thread - love that litho.

[Northwoods Flyer]

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, saving for a trainarama, .  .  .  . I'm slipping,    saving for a trainarama,

Jim 

Seeing all these beautiful prewar AF is weaking my resolve, saving for a prewar train,saving for a prewar train, saving for a prewar train, .  .  .  .   Jim you know that prewar Flyer would look great with a trainarama.

All Aboard!  

Greg

Won a 790 Trainaram on ebay, train budget shot for now but now it will recover. 

Congratulations Jim!

Now that you have the backdrop, you can begin the collecting phase of putting Prewar lithographed Flyer on display!

I bet it won't be long. 

Greg

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6 you can use photobucket to store you pictures and then post them here. Here is my AF 4692. If anybody knows where i can get parts for this please let me know. I know about Olsen but they do not have the lever assembly. Thanks. Been running for 70+ years and still going.

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QueensNY,

to the thread and thanks for posting the picture

Your steam engine is a beauty.  Are you the original owner?  I am aware of Olsen, and there is another supplier that I have heard of but not contacted yet or dealt with. It is Eric Trickel.  I have an address and phone number for him.  I have an email from him that says he has a catalog, but I have not sent away for it yet.  Perhaps someone else has dealt with him to know what kind of parts he has.

Northwoods

[QueensNY]

Hey Northwood,  

 The engine belong to my grandfather then my dad and now became mine and one day it will become my sons. It's been running every christmas and alot of other times since my grandfather bought it in the 30's. A few years ago it up was upgraded with an e-unit, and i would love to put the level control back in, the way it came  in the 30's, the problem is i cant find the parts nor do i know the part numbers. It's been running almost 80 years and still purs like a kitten. It's Amazing.

[lionelsoni]

Would any of you prewar-Flyer guys like a 478 boxcar, a 480 tank car, and a 484 caboose, all with chipped paint but runnable, for the cost of shipping?  They were given to me by a neighbor and I really don't need them.

[QueensNY]

Just sent you a PM, I'll take them.

[Northwoods Flyer]

mersenne6,

Your pictures of the lithographed stations are great.  I have never seen some of the examples that you show. I have focused on American Flyer production and I had no idea of the variety and detail of the buildings produced by other manufacturers.  Your collection is impressive in its variety and depth.

3016 Sand Cars

Edited 5/31/2008

I enjoyed your pictures of the lithographed 6 1/2 inch cars.  I have only collected the enameled version of freight cars up to this point.  One of my collecting goals has been to have trains to display that all have the same couplers and trucks.  Not all cars were produced in all truck and coupler combinations.  If you throw in color changes and Flyer's practice of using the materials that they had on hand, this can get to be quite a goal. So far I have two examples of the 6 1/2" enameled sand cars.  I am very liberal in what I will accept as far as condition is concerned.  Most of my collection is made up of operator quality pieces.

Edit:  Here is another version of the sand car/gondola.  With the decals I assume it is from the later years of production.  These cars obvioulsy got a lot of play time.

 

Notice the difference in the trucks and the indentification painted on the bodies.

Let me quote the Greenberg guide (published by Kalmbach and now out of print) about these gondolas - also called sand cars.

"From 1919 through 1937 cars were lithographed. Enameled cars debuted in 1930, with either 4 wheels (1930-1935) or eight wheels (1930-1932)  The first 6 1/2" sand cars were catalog numbers 1113 and 1116.  The 1919 catalog illustrated both lithographed "1116", so the only difference was the wheels on the frame.  The catalog number changed in 1930 to 3013 and 3016, signaling the addition of the new enameled cars with brass journals, brass ladders, and brake wheels."

There are other variations including an orange bodied sand car, which I have heard is relatively uncommon.

Northwoods

Edit: For some addtional pictures see the post on page 

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Seeing all the prewar cars, locos, tunnels and stations is like going on a guided muesum tour! 

Please keep sharing the pictures and info. 

Jim