Pre War American Flyer Pictures - An Invitation

[Northwoods Flyer]

Greetings ivesboy  ,

 

to the American Flyer O zone.  I'm glad you decided to venture into this area of the forum.

BTW I still enjoy your story of your Presidents Special and its history with your family.

I assume that this is the engine that you have aquired.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The information that I have about the 420 is excerpted from the Greenberg guide.  The 420 is known as the Type X boiler casting.  It was introduced in 1932 as one of two entirely new engines.  It appeared in catalogs in 1932-1933, 1934, 1938-1939.  It was used as the basis for a number of engines. It filled out American Flyer's range of less expensive die-cast steamers.

 

In 1938 when Gilbert aquired American Flyer it included the 420 engine only, without a tender, in some Erector Sets. These engines will show up pretty often without a tender for that reason. American Flyer started using nickel trim on locomotives in 1940.  Prior to that the examples of the 420 that I have use copper and brass accents in handrails,bells, windows, etc.  The 420 locomotive was not cataloged in sets in 1940.  If your engine has nickel trim it is most likely from 1940 and may have actually come from an Erector set or it might have been from one of the uncataloged sets. 

 

The engine that I have has the nickel trim and the accompanying tender also has nickel trim.  In combination like this the Greenberg guide gives the combination the number 422, the engine is 420 and the tender is 421.  I don't have any idea what else might have been included in the uncataloged set.  I could check my catalogs for the cars that came with this engine type other years

 

The Type X   #420 is also part of the double header set produced in 1939 but it does not have nickel trim.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

[mersenne6]

 As Northwoods and I and others have noted - variation is the spice of prewar American Flyer.  I photographed this set several years ago.  It was complete and boxed.  The box had the New Haven address and the boxes were the A.C. Gilbert style.  Unfortunately, I didn't write down the set number.  As you can see the engine is as you described and the couplers are the Gilbert link but the tender and the cars all have brass journal boxes.  The cars were enameled and decaled and the caboose was illuminated.

[ivesboy]

 

     Yep, no tender. Bought at an antique shop, just the loco, but they did have alot of erector sets. I think its a gorgeous engine, very art deco compared to other manufacturers trains of the era. Has a slight ding in the cab roof, but not too shabby. I need some parts though....Do you have email for some other questions? I dont want to cloud up the thread with spam....Thanks again.

[Northwoods Flyer]

ivesboy,

Coincidentally, I just found these pictures of an Erector set with a 420 in it on Ebay.  I borrowed the pictures from there.  I'm not sure if that is a forbidden action or not.  If it is, my apologies to the poster.

From this photo it appears to be a set 10 1/2, and is pre war.

I wouldn't mind having a set like this.

I can certainly send you my email, but I don't consider questions about Flyer as spam on the thread. There have been plenty in the past and I would hope that the thread can be a forum for discussion as well.  Or if you would like to start a seperate thread with your questions, that would be welcome too.  If you have a question about Flyer, my guess is that others would benefit from any information that we find to share; if we can find it.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[ivesboy]

 

     You know i found those too and logged on to post them!

 Anyway i have a few questions.

 First my engine is missing a few parts. I need the lead and trailing trucks, a spring for the auto reverse, and some screws.

 It looks like someone took the engine apart and put it back with some screws moved around. Am i correct to assume the screws which hold the eccentric linkage to the shell should be shouldered?

 Also were is a good source for the parts i need. I usually buy from Jeff but he doesnt have much flyer.

Also could you guys cough up some part numbers to aid me in ordering these. Im gonna go back to the antique shop and hunt for some erector parts. My 420 has very little skid wear so that would explain why.

   I have to admit.....It runs very well, i was quite surprised at how mechanic friendly it was. I had only worked on S gauge before and didnt much care for it. This may start a new page in my collecting!

   Okay....im excited that i finally have an excuse to buy a milk car! Did they make one with link couplers! Those cars look so neat!!!!!

[mersenne6]

 

  For parts

  Eric Trickel

 541 North Charlotte Street

 Pottstown, Pa. 19464

[e-mail]

    It sounds like the parts you are looking for are

    AO38 Lead truck, swivel style

    AO35B trailing truck

    AO30 - Wheel lead truck

    AO32 Wheel, trailing truck

    AO41 Weight over axle lead or trailing truck

   AO44 Axle lead or trailing truck

   AO420-2 Screws and spacer (one side) for the valve gear assembly

     He has a picture ot the #420 on pp. 17 of his most recent catalog and these numbers are from that page.

    The only thing I don't know about - you could ask him - is the spring for the auto reverse.

[Northwoods Flyer]

ivesboy,

It sounds as if you really have been bitten by the Flyer bug.

ivesboy

Okay....im excited that i finally have an excuse to buy a milk car! Did they make one with link couplers! Those cars look so neat!!!!!

Flyer did make a link coupler Borden's Milk Car in 1939-1940.  It is numbered 412.

Enjoy the hunt.

I will post some close ups of the valve linkages on my #420 later.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[Northwoods Flyer]

ivesboy,

Here are some detail photos of the valve linkages on the 420. Perhaps they will help.

 

 

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

Switching Topics I  ....Electric Switch #405

  Through the pre-war years American Flyer made an unusual number of switches for the O gauge market.  The #405 switches were introduced sometime between 1918 and 1925 - this is the gap in my collection of reproduction Flyer catalogs.  In 1925 the catalog listed the pair of switches but indicated that only the right hand switch (the one with the switch stand) was illustrated. The same switches were offered as #408 - the difference being a single light fixture on the right hand switch stand.

  What makes the #405 switch interesting is the fact that the left hand switch of the pair is a trailing point spring switch. Just like the prototype the switch is spring loaded so that a train approaching from the facing point direction (from the bottom of the picture) cannot "pick the points" and go left. Whereas a train entering on the curve from the left switch does not need to stop and wait for the switch to be thrown.  For this train, as its wheels hit the points the force of the wheels pushes the spring loaded points open and let the train pass.

   The center rail pickups on the engine and any illuminated car coming in from the left would have to touch the section of rail (identified with the red arrow) that, for straight ahead running, would be a grounded outer rail. To keep everything running this section of track is actually a supported piece of hard rubber.  The hard rubber piece is asymmetrical - there is more rubber face on the left hand side than on the right hand side and this, for roller equipped trains, can result in some rather spectacular sparks.  The fix is simple - put a piece of electricians tape on the lower right side of the supported rubber - this covers up the grounded metal that supports the hard rubber.

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Eljay

Could you post a couple of shots of the cupola on the roof. This loco is close to being complete. Much appreciated.

Thanks,

Eljay

Eljay,

I didn't forget about you.  It just takes a while to get around to getting the photos taken and posted.  Here are a few detail shots of the roof of the 3107. 

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck in finding the missing parts.  Keep us posted on your progress with lots of photos.

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

[Eljay]

Thanks again. It looks as if I'll might have to try to make this part from scratch. My metal shop teacher from my old jr high school days must be up there somewhere laughing.

Eljay 

[mersenne6]

  New Index pp. 38

  Index obsolete - deleted

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Mersenne6,

Thank you so much for updating the index.  Now I can find where we have posted things.  I also edited the header so that it gives the new location of the Index.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

   Out with the Old and In with the New

     The early 1930’s saw many changes in the world of toy train manufacture.  One of the big changes, particularly for toy steam outline engines was the change from cast iron to high pressure diecast superstructures.  One of the train sets in the American Flyer lineup that mirrored these changes was the Paul Revere.

  Set #1343, The Paul Revere, was introduced in the 1931 Catalog. It was an assembly of then current Flyer production – 3182 series passenger cars and the then new #3191 2-4-0 cast iron locomotive.

 Catalog cut

 

 

Set #1343

 

In 1932 everything changed.  The Paul Revere became set #3150 The NEW Paul Revere. The passenger cars were the new, low profile series 3171 passenger cars and the locomotive was the new, die cast, # 3316. 

 

Catalog cut

 

 

 

 

Set #1350

 

 The set survived as The New Paul Revere in 1933 and then, with the addition of another Pullman passenger car the set morphed into Set #1374 The Yellowstone in 1934 and then vanished in 1935.

 

[Cubster]

I have a nice little green 3110 that was repaired by a previous owner.  The paint appears original on both the frame and the body, though the cab roof has been epoxied in place.  The wheels have been replaced, and the motor runs great.  I have no idea if the frame, motor and cab body were originally together, or if this 3110 was assembled from parts.

The frame has four slots that could accept tabs from the body - but there's no evidence tabs ever existed on the body.  Instead, it is attached to the frame by one small bolt/nut at each end.

Coupler placement is puzzling.  The previous owner sandwiched the coupler between the cab body sheet metal and the frame.  There are indentations that appear designed to allow a coupler to swivel on the top of the frame at each end.  But there are also slots in the cowcatchers that could accept a coupler underneath the frame.  The couplers are held by the same single bolt/nut at each end that hold the body in place.  The couplers on it now are not designed to fit in the indentations at the top (wrong shape where they are secured between the body and frame).

How were the 3110 cab bodies originally attached to the frames?  Were tabs used?  Were bolts used to hold the couplers/cab body to the frame originally, or were rivets used?  Were the couplers mounted above or below the frame?

If any one has information to share on how the steeple cabs were put together at the factory, I'd love to learn more about that.  Thank you for your kind help.

[mersenne6]

 

  I see you got an answer over on the OGR forum.  However, just to provide some additional confirmation all of the #3110's I've seen had just the two screws which also held the coupler in the notched section of the frame front and back.  Northwood's pictures of the series (including #3110) on page 12 show the same thing.  If you look closely at the pictures of the front and the sides there are no additional pin or tabs in any of the steeple cab shells.

[Cubster]

Thank you, mersenne6:  I will go study the photos from Northwoods Flyer.  I'm still surprised that AF didn't use rivets there - pleasantly surprised!

[Northwoods Flyer]

Chris,

I have a number of steeple cabs from the 1201 types to the 3110 types.  Flyer made a number of changes during the years of production and gave them different numbers.  I have looked at all of them, and not one has tabs on the sides of the body to go with the slots in the frames. Some of the frames have a coupler pocket, some have two and some have none.  My guess is that the coupler fit into the slot at the end of the frame.  On one example I have the steeple cab only has one coupler, at the rear (opposite the head light) of the engine, and the coupler passes through that small slot in the frame (what I am calling the coupler pocket).

Here are some photos from earlier in the thread that show the fronts and backs of several of the steeple cabs.

 

 

 I am not convinced that Flyer originally used bolts and nuts to hold the bodies to the frame.  In the years that these toys have been around I am sure they have been assembled and disassembled a number of times.  Most of my steeple cabs are indeed held together by bolts and nuts but on at least three of them there is a different fastening device.  It looks like a split rivet that passes through the body and the frame and then a washer, it is then spread apart and flattened.  I think that may have been the original way Flyer fastened them together, but they don't appear as if they would hold up very well if removed more than once. It is more convenient to use the bolt and nut but they are also prone to losening and falling off.  I will take some pictures later on when I have some time.  My green 3110 has one of these split rivets and a bolt and nut. I have an almost pristine 1217 that has two of the split rivets and garter loop couplers. 

 

 The 1217 does not run and I have a suspicion that it was packed away early in its life and not used again or tampered with.  I also have a yellow 1218 that uses the same kind of split rivet. but only has one coupler.

 

These are all pictures that I have posted before.  I will post some more detailed photos of the rivets when I have some time to take them.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

 

[mersenne6]

 Northwoods' comments concerning rivets vs. screws certainly makes sense and the possible explanation of why screws on even mint or at least near mint locomotives also makes sense.  As I mentioned everything I have in this line (not a lot) is held together with screws.  Two of the three that I own show very little run wear on the wheels and pickups and the third doesn't exhibit much more.  All are in like new condition.

   If Flyer shipped these trains with rivets and washers and they started their service around the Christmas tree back when it wouldn't have been very long before someone wanted to lube them and if they did they would have to remove the rivet and probably wound up chewing it up enough that they substituted a screw and a nut (and in all of mine - a lock washer).  If this happened when the train was new it would have made sense to put a shiney new screw on a shiney new train which is what mine look like.

[Cubster]

Thank you both again!  I'm familiar with the split rivet, and that's what I originally intended to use when I put it back together.  For practicality, I'm now inclined to use the bolt/washer/lock washer/nut combo.  I plan to run it, so it will need lubrication regularly.

I'd also like to share that I've been having a blast running AF 425 & 429 locomotives on my layout the past couple weekends.  It's a real treat to see these in full action again.  They are navigating my K-Line and K-Line by Lionel SuperSnap switches without issues (O31, O42 and O72), along with the 3.4% grades.  FWIW, the more use the SuperSnap switches get, the better they work with wider varieties of tinplate (wearing-in seems to benefit use of tinplate wheels with larger flange sizes).

[IMCPL]

 I have a Pre-War flyer engine # 3190.  Does anyone know what goes in the two small round "holders" on each side in the front?  I think it may be for flags, but I have not been able to find any pictures of one.

 

Thanks,

 

[mersenne6]

 

  They are flag holders but Flyer never sold those engines with flags. However it wouldn't surprise me to learn that some kids back in 1930-31 got the flags as an add-on and put them in the holders. Flyers version of the flags did come with some of the standard gauge electrics - it is sheet metal and is in the form of a pennant.  Reproductions of the flags are available so you could add them to your engine if you wanted to.

[Northwoods Flyer]

 

Hi IMCPL ,

 

           to the forum and to this thread.

Just to add to Mersenne6's confirmation of the function of those brass flag holders, here are some pictures of a 3190

 

 

And some  close ups of the flag holders

 

 

 

And here is what they look like with flags

 

 

These are actually reproduction flags.

 

 

They make a nice addition to the 3190 as it cruises down the track.

 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

[mersenne6]

  Northwoods - a question or two about your #3190 - I see it doesn't have the sheet metal stamping on the side to cover the brush plate and I also notice it has a headlight cover with a bell and bracket.  From the looks of the picture the plates look like they couldn't be covered with the sheet metal stamping - are the screw holes for the plate paint filled?  Also is the screw hole behind the smokestack either absent or paint filled?  This is where the bell was normally mounted - you can see both of these items in the pictures of #3190 on pp. 11.

                                        Mersenne6

[Northwoods Flyer]

Hi Mersenne6,

I think we have the beginings of our own police drama 

 AFI  -  American Flyer Investigations  

Here are a few detail shots of my 3190.   In answer to your questions. There is no brush plate cover  and with the way the motor sits there would be no room for it.   The holes are there, but not paint filled and the hole for the bell is there but not paint filled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would be interested in your opinion on this engine.  I have had some questions about it since I bought it.  There are certain things that "feel" right :  the presence of the green running board stripe and accents, the gold accents on the steps and the smoke stack.  The feel of the paint is as if it is fresh from the box on Christmas morning new.  The not quite right feel is the great condition of the paint - although it is thick and heavy like old paint, and that chipping around the bell support, although you would think that if this was a repaint or "marriage" of parts the person would have taken the time to touch it up.

 

So Mersenne6 what do the clues lead you to conlude?   

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

 

 

 

 

 

[Northwoods Flyer]

Cubster/Chris,

Here are a few pictures of the split rivet fasteners on the steeple cabs.

 

 

 

 

I am fairly certain that not many of them survived repeated bending and rebending. 

 

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

 

Northwoods Flyer

[mersenne6]

 

  American Flyer Investigations it is !

   The earliest version of the #3190 which would probably have been January 1931 looked like picture #1  A  2-4-0 wheel arrangement, Remote Control capability, headlight hood, brass bell screw mounted to boiler, die cast main and connecting rods and sheet metal piston rods, blue green stripe, gold painted boiler front steps, gold paint on smoke stack top, and heavy japanned black enamel - very thick and very shiney.

 

Picture 1 - #3190 early version - note the screw mounted sheet metal cover for the brushes

 

 

  Sometime, probably a few months into the 1931 production, the weakness of the die cast main rod became apparent (or maybe they just decided it was too expensive or who knows).   In any event same set up as before except for the stamped sheet metal main rod.  The diecast connecting rod has been dropped to allow a better view of the sheet metal rod.

 

 

Picture 2 - #3190 version with mix of sheet metal and die cast side rods

 

 

    Sometime - perhaps at the very beginning of 1931 - Flyer dropped the #3198 and replaced it with an 0-4-0 version of #3190.  This was rubber stamped #3180 on the underside and came in three different versions #3180, #3180 M/C, and #3180 R/C.  M/C = manual reverse and R/C = remote control reverse.  It should be noted that #3190 can be found with similar markings - most are rubber stamped #3190 R/C since it was supposed to have a remote control reverse.  With the #3180 they dropped the main rod and just provided valve gear that consisted of the connecting rod and the piston rods - all stamped sheet metal.  The side paint trim and brass details were identical to the #3190, however, the boiler front steps were not painted gold - Picture 3.

 

 

Picture 3 - #3180 - no reverse unit simplified all sheet metal side rods

 

 

  The typical motor for some portion of 1931 is as illustrated in Picture 4 - note it is not the same motor as you have - I don't think this is a big deal and you will see why in a moment.

 

 

 Picture 4 - underside of #3190 R/C

 

   At some point in 1931 - probably towards the end of the year - Flyer seems to have gone into salvage mode as far as the #3190 is concerned because the number of variations of fittings, motors, trim and tenders is out of all proportion to the time the engine was cataloged.  I would guess the nightmare economic conditions (the Great Depression had been underway since 1929 and 1932 was rock bottom) were the reason.  As a result, you can find the #3190 with more than one type of electric motor.  I've never seen one with the type you have but the way it is mounted and the way the sheet metal cover for the brushes has obviously never been put on the engine suggests it is correct.

 

  The engine in Picture 5 is one of four of its type I've seen over the years.  The valve gear and the motor are those that were used in the 1932 die cast steamer.  In order to accomodate the manual reverse lever on the side the #3190 casting was milled out for clearance and because of this it too does not have a sheet metal cover for the brushes.  This particular version has a gold strip on the side and the smokestack rim and the steam dome are painted gold.  No other trim or markings.  This one has a paint filled, tapped hole in the boiler front for the headlight hood but none was ever installed. 

 

  I'd say your engine was made slightly earlier than the one in picture 5.  You have a different motor, your valve gear is all sheet metal - it looks like they ran out of single brass bells but still had headlight hoods with the bell bracket from the #3195 so they screwed it in place, shipped it, and umpteen years later it found a place in your collection.

 

 

 

Picture 5 - last of the line

 

 

[bsm699]

This has to be one of the best toy train threads going.  It has even prompted me to register so I can share my American Flyer pics and post.  I'll be posting some pic when I get them on a photo sharing site.  Thanks again for the informative post and wonderful photos.

[Northwoods Flyer]

bsm699,

to the forum and to this thread.  Thanks for the kind words.  Its nice to know that people are still enjoying our postings   I look forward to contributions by others as well.  As you have probably read folks have raised some interesting questions and contributed some wonderful stories about their trains as well as pictures of their Pre War Flyer trains.  Its good to have you aboard.  I hope you enjoy the ride.

Mersenne6,

Thank you for the great post on the 3190. Your knowleged and scholarship always amazes me.  

 But do you think you could narrow it down to the week that it might have been produced?    I feel pretty comfortable now that the engine is original and direct from the factory.  Its a good thing I like variations since Flyer provides plenty of them.  My suspicion is that there are still more to be discovered.

Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby

Northwoods Flyer

[bsm699]

 

 

Here are some photos of my Christmas garden (recently dismantled).  It's a mixture of equipment, but mostly flyer.  Hope you enjoy.