Classic_Wax,
I have tried sending some private messages through this post and am not sure if they made it to you. I would like to learn more about Jay Edmonds and what history you may know.
I can tell you that other than his name being associated with Edmonds-Metzel MFG., it is my understanding that Mr. Edmonds did not contribute to American Flyer trains. However, I am not sure of his association with the company after 1907.
It is my understanding that the design of the first American Flyer trains is attributed to William Hafner and that William Odgen Coleman had gained a controlling interest in the Edmonds-Metzel MFG company in the 1906-1907 era and the Coleman family controlled Edmonds-Metzel and subsequently American Flyer MFG (as the company was known after 1910) until the sale of the company to AC Gilbert in 1938.
As someone seeking knowlege about early American Flyer trains the history of the company intrigued me and I recently searched for information and posted it along with pictures of the bank.
Otis
I want to offer a tip to fellow operators. I purchased this MTH Millenium Mayflower back in 2000 when it was issued and was not able to run it until 3-4 years ago when I finally set up a new layout (as I had moved in 2002 and it took a while to build the train room).
Anyway, the first time I ran the set I was very disappointed as the engine would not pull all 4 cars. I initially thought it was a problem with the engine, until I bought a cast iron steamer and it would not pull the cars without straining either.
I had oiled all of the wheels/axles, but that was not the problem. Someone told me the axles/wheels had to be broken in, which not knowing a lot about the operation of standard gauge, sounded plausible. However, running only three cars and swapping the cars out, never seemed to help.
Last evening I was speaking to a fellow collector/operator on the phone and describing the problems. He thought about the problem and called me this morning. He suggested I check every car for the proper operation of the wheels/axles. Spin every wheel and make sure it spins properly and make sure that none of the axles are bent. I had not really thought of checking the operation of the wheels/axles like this, but sure enough when I checked, I found two different cars that had bent axles and I found several wheels that did not seem to spin properly.
Seems I should have had a bit more common sense to check the little items. I am going to take the set out to a friend who works on standard gauge and we will tweak it and get it to run right.
Happy 4th Anniversary
Its hard to believe that 4 years ago today I posted the very first entry to this thread. Little did I know at that time that the thread would grow to the size that it is, or that it would draw so many contributors. Let me say a sincere "Thank You" to each person who has contributed a photo, comment, or question. This thread has been a collaborative effort, and I am pleased to have so many knowledgeable folks making contributions. I have learned a lot from you. And let me also offer an extra large THANK YOU to all those who have spent time reading the offerings of the many folks who have posted here.
Many, many thanks to CTT and the folks at Kalmbach for providing the forums.
I believe that we have just scratched the surface of information about American Flyer Pre War trains. I'm looking forward to what will show up in the coming year. For one thing, I know that I need to update the Index; Mersenne6 has reminded me of that several times. I'm at least 12 pages behind, but I am working on it. I hope that in the days ahead this thread will inspire some folks to dig out their family pieces and identify them; or post some photos here so we can help. There have been some great entries and stories posted in the last year. I have been amazed at the information that has been uncovered and posted by our contributors.
I have plenty of ideas of things to post, and I think that I can still pull a few surprises out of boxes under the Blueboard Central.
Let me share an example of things that lie ahead.
So folks, lets get started on Year #5.
Enjoying the Worlds Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
Greg
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Set # 1346
The Jeffersonian
Many moons ago I had a conversation with a neighbor about toy train collecting. He mentioned that he had an old American Flyer train that had been in his family a long time and that he remembered playing with as a child. He invited me over to take a look at it. I had been collecting S gauge for a long time, and had only newly started to add to the Narrow Gauge Flyer items that had been passed down in my family. It was a passenger set and it had its original boxes. That set stuck in the back of my mind even though I didn't remember what the actual components of the set were, and not long ago I asked him if I could borrow it and photograph it for the thread. He was happy to let me borrow it.
The set that he has is the #1346. That set number was used in the 1928 catalog for a set called The New Jeffersonian. It also appears in the 1929 and the 1930 catalog for a set called "The Jeffersonian". The copy describing the sets is almost identical and the same artwork is used in all three years.
These are photos of the 1929 catalog page.
Northwoods - a BIG congratulations on the anniversary of this "Classic Toy Train" thread!
Thank you and great job!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
I, like so many others who have commented, am really enjoying this thread. So far I am only about half-way through, but already have gone back through pages I have read for reference.
I have had O-gauge trains for years with on-and-off interest. This past Christmas I revived a modest (45"X50") dining room table train/tree layout that I had built many years ago. It originally was set up for Lionel trains with several operating accessories. I took it apart and re-assembled a simpler two separate loop layout with older tinplate trains in my mind. Growing up in a not-so-affluent family, a tin Marx streamline train was what I had, and played with for hours on end. So this past month I bought several Marx tin steam engines and freight cars. The Marx passenger cars, however, did not really appeal to me. So I have picked up a mixed consist of 6 1/2" American Flyer passenger cars. Just recently I have purchased a couple American Flyer box cab engines for the passenger cars. With the funds I have available, I can't afford the "good stuff" so I often find myself repairing what I can afford. I am not really into restoring anything - rather just getting things in operating condition. I kinda like the dents and scratches and such.
I also have been buying some tin-style accessories and the layout is filling up fast. I really appreciate the creative and elegant simplicity of engineering of these older toy trains and accessories.
This thread has been a true inspiration. Great photographs and useful information. I'll likely have questions when I start working with the Flyer equipment that is coming my way.
I'll also post pictures when I have some and am allowed to do so.
Oh, I have a question right now. I looked up "Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Prewar 0 Gauge" and was amazed at how expensive it is. Maybe this question has been asked before - doesn't it seem like the publisher re-printing it would be a good idea. Maybe I am just naive about the realities of such an undertaking.
Thanks again to Northwoods Flyer and everyone on this thread.
Craig
Craig - Welcome to Trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer
Welcome to the Forum and to this thread Craig ,
I'm glad you found your way here and that you are enjoying the reading, and finding some helpful information. It sounds like you have dabbled with the hobby before and are returning to it as many of us have. There are so many aspects to this hobby and a variety of ways to pursue it. The main thing is that you enjoy your involvement with it. Beware though, I think the train bug has bitten you.
As I have said before, I started this thread because I wanted it to be a place where other Flyer enthusiasts or those with questions could come and interact with each other. As it has grown it has become a resource for folks who don't have the opportunity to do first hand research, or who don't have access to some of the printed resources about Flyer. I'm pleased that those who have knowledge and access to resources have participated as well as those who are just starting their interest in gaining information. Part of the enjoyment of this hobby for me is to be able to share information with others, and to do the research to help answer questions. I have certainly learned a great deal by the posts of other knowledgeable collectors.
Craig, if you are looking for information about any aspect of toy trains or collecting them you will be able to locate it here on the forum. There are so many folks who are williing to share their knowledge and experiences. The Greenberg Guide is one of the best printed resources about PreWar O Gauge American Flyer Trains in my opinion. If you do decide to save up your hobby money and buy a copy I would recommend that you get the Revised Edition. There were many changes, corrections and additions made to the first edition. There are even additional examples of variations that have been found since its printing, a few of which you will find here on the thread. Since it is out of print it is fairly expensive on the secondary market.
A second goal I have developed for this thread is to make the information about PreWar Flyer trains more available to all levels of collectors. I can post information here for free (Thank You Kalmbach), and you and others can get it for free with a little searching and effort (Thank You Again Kalmbach). Again this is one of the things I enjoy about the hobby, and being able to connect with others in the hobby. I think that it is unlikey that we will see a reprinting of the Greenberg guides. The PreWar guide is really of interest to a very small niche group of collectors. As I understand it, it took a long time for the initial printing to be sold, and it is only on the secondary market that is seeing an increase in price. While I would love to see a reprint of the Greenberg Guides and I'd love to participate in some way, it really comes down to a matter of economics.
This is getting long, but I want to say its good to have you here and the sooner that you can post some photos the better. And by the way, to paraphrase an old advertising campaign; When it comes to collecting old trains "No one can stop at just one." Welcome Aboard
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Southern Colorado Marx Flyer This thread has been a true inspiration. Great photographs and useful information. I'll likely have questions when I start working with the Flyer equipment that is coming my way. Thanks again to Northwoods Flyer and everyone on this thread. Craig
Northwoods,
Dido on Craig's comment.
If it were not for you and the help you gave my when I wanted to ID my Flyer's I would of nevre known of this thread.
I got a new to me ZW today and it was an inspiration to pull the Flyer set off of the wall and give her a good run
Just tooo much fun.
Tks for all you and others like you do for this forum
Kev.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I'm definitely "bitten" and well past stopping at one. Now if my house were just a little larger . . . .
Thank you.
I already have another question, and I apologize if I missed this in an earlier post.
Do any of you have suggestions about a basic repair reference(s) for prewar trains? I'm thinking of something that might have some diagrams but more importantly general information on disassembling, repairing and installing motors, drive wheels, e-units, wiring, etc.
I have run across some that might be useful - specifically the "Complete Service Manual for American Flyer Trains" but I am not sure how much it may address prewar trains. The other repair publications I have seen focus mainly or exclusively on more modern or specifically DC motor trains. An internet resource - American Flyer Repair Clinics - has some good information, but again looks to be more oriented toward postwar trains.
Thanks for any guidance you can offer.
I found a table of contents for the Complete service manual and see that there is little if anything on prewar trains. So I will keep up my search, but with dwindling hope. I spent several hours yesterday looking for a simple wiring diagram for a prewar AF AC motor. Not much.
This looked useful (minus the jumper):
So here are the two motors I am needing to rewire. First a 3011 motor:
Then a 3107 motor:
I don't know if either is functional, but won't until I wire them properly. Hopefully I am on the right track with the diagram above. Any information you might add will be appreciated.
I am also wondering about replacing the insulation on the wires. The 3011 has a beaded-type arrangement and the 3107 some very hardened material. Would shrinktube - maybe several layers - be a suitable replacement, or should I look for something more substantial?
Finally one of the drive wheels on the 3107 is bad (actually two of them). I'm hoping to find a source for a replacement. I think a possibility is George Tebolt train parts, but I didn't see any illustrations to confirm, and it looks at first glance like the way to communicate with him is with a SASE letter.
Here's the bad wheel.
Thanks for any help you can offer.
For a replacement wheel, go to Toy Train Restoration Products. There web address is ttrponline.com. They sell the wheels in complete sets for $36.00. The part number for the wheels is AO1000.
strainst
Thank you for your VERY helpful reply strainst. What a great resource for parts. I'm not sure why I hadn't run across them in my Internet searching. A great feature of that site is the part pictures.
For instance, while I can turn the 3107 wheels by hand, they do not turn freely. The way it is now would put a lot of strain on the motor. So I'm thinking the (remaining) wheels are too snug, the axle is bent, or there is some other source of binding. I will need to get some form of wheel puller (auto parts store) to see if the problem is too snug wheels. I checked out the TTRP site and saw that they had three types of axles (slip fit, press fit, and "regular') for "O" gauge AF - none of which look like the axles on my motor. So I checked the picture of the AF Wide Gauge axles and sure enough there they were.
Now I don't know if there is a difference in diameter between Wide Gauge and "O" gauge axles, that would make them too snug in the bearings, but that may be the problem. Also you can see that the drive gears appear to be epoxied to the axles. Again looking at the TTRP part photos, it looks like that may be how the gears are attached as the center "hole" is triangulated. The epoxy job on my gears is a little rough and may need smoothing if indeed the Wide Gauge axles are not the problem.
I didn't see which of the three "O" gauge axles were appropriate for the new wheel set, but I can email them to find out.
In any event I believe I will no doubt become a regular customer.
With regard to my previous post, I rewired the 3011 engine using different diameters of heat shrink tubing and ran a jumper from one brush to the motor frame and that engine is running well. So the simple wiring diagram looks to be accurate.
A further note on the 3107 motot. Even with the drive wheels not engaged (idler gear removed) the motor would barely turn when I applied current. This engine and accompanying cars had a lot of rust. I bought a gallon of Evapo-rust for the cars and I'll post on the rust removal of the cars later. So I decided to just soak the motor in the Evapo-rust, which I did for about an hour. After rinsing and thorough drying, I applied current and the motor spun beautifully. I don't know if this will become a regular treatment for gunky engines, but it sure produced amazing result with this one. If I can figure out the drive binding issue, I'll get a new wheel set, rewire the motor and be good to go (I hope).
You may want to check out Evapo-rust. It is non-toxic and biodegradable it does remove rust. I bought mine locally at O'Reilly Auto Parts. They didn't stock it but had it in the next day.
Thanks again for your help.
Craig,
I do all of my own engine repairs and will attempt to answer your questions. First of all, the axles that you found (press fit, slip fit, etc.) sound like they are axles for leading/trailing trucks for steam engines and not the axles that you need.
I rarely find that the axles are bad on Flyer O gauge motors and would not recommend that you replace them.
There is a difference in the diameter of O gauge and standard gauge axles and they are not interchangeable.
Based on my experience, I would guess that the old wheels on your engine have expanded enough at the hub around the axle so that they are rubbing against the motor frame and that is causing your wheels/motor to turn hard.
To check this, I recommend using a hammer and punch to pound on the axle, with the motor on your thigh. You need to do this on a soft surface as the wheel/axle has to be able to break free and move, which will be difficult if you are doing this on a workbench. You may need to turn the engine over a few times and pound the other side of the axle as well. You should be able to break the wheels free from rubbing on the motor frame if you take your time. In some cases I have been able to free up a motor and avoid re-wheeling it just by doing this.
The drive gears on your engine are likiely not epoxied to the axles and they will be ok. What typically happens is that the gear hub that holds the gears on the wheel have separated from the rest of the wheel. You will just need to pull the gear off, like you would pull a wheel off. Then you will need to pound the remains of the wheel out of the center of the axle. Tap lightly with a punch to clean this stuff out.
As for soaking your engine in whatever fluid, I have never had to soak an engine in anything and am not sure I would recommend it. Although it may take some of the gunk off, I am not sure that it is good for the electrical components of the engine.
The electrical / wiring aspect of the Flyer engines is fairly simple. There is either 1 or 2 wires coming from the track power pickup. One wire goes to the bottom of the main motor winding. The other wire, if present, is for the headlight (since not all engines have headlights, this wire may or may not be present). At the top of the motor windings, there will be a wire coming out that will either go to one of the brushes or to the reverse mechanism (again not all engines had reverse, so it could go either place). If the engine has reverse, then there will be two wires coming from the reverse mechanism, one to each of the brushes. If there is not a reverse mechanism, there is likely only the single wire coming from the motor windings to one of the brushes. The other brush is likely to have some sort of contact to the motor frame for its source of power. I have seen larger springs that fit over the brush tubes, held in place with a small cotter pin, that provide for the electrical contact if there is no reverse mechanism.
Another important thought for you. I always recommend that the springs and brushes should be replaced when servicing a prewar engine. The reason I recommend this is that the prewar brushes are made of copper wires that have been meshed together to form the brush. These types of brushes create a tremendous amount of friction and will wear into the armature plate over time. The new brushes are made of graphite/carbon and do not wear into the armature plate. One may need to trim the length of the new springs.
As for the wiring itself. I typically install new wiring for the individual pieces that can be removed and put shrink fit insulation over the wires that cannot (such as the wire coming out of the motor windings). I get my shrink fit insulation at Radio Shack, because that is where I have found it.
You will need a solding iron and some good solder for this. I recommend avoiding solder with a resin/flux core, because I was an electronics technician in the US Navy and learned that one should not use flux when soldering electronic components. You may have to clean the old wires / contacts with sandpaper to make the job easier, but that is not too difficult.
As for wheel/gear pullers, you will not find anything in the market that you can use off the shelf. The closest size item you are going to find is a battery terminal puller, but you will find that the center point that presses on the axle will need to be modified and that the jaws that pull the wheel off, will not fit between the wheels and frame.
I use a custom made wheel puller that is home made and not pretty looking, but with a little work, I can get it behind the wheels and pull them off. Prior to getting this I used to pound the axles out of the wheels, using the method I suggested above to get the wheels free from the motor frame.
Tips on rewheeling your motor.
Tools needed, Drill Press, Arbor Press, drill bits
1) You need to find a drill bit that is the correct / same size as the axle. The new wheels are press on and I have found that the axle hole diameter is too small. Therefore, I drill approximately half way through the wheel (from the back side of the wheel) with a drill bit that is the same size as the axle. This allows the wheel to be mounted more quickly and straighter than if you are trying to press it on entirely without drilling the hole out.
2)I first press the axles on to the wheels that have the gear hub. Afther the gears are pressed on, I recommend pounding a chisel against the backside of the wheel at the hub/axle hole. This should tighten the wheel up to the gear and prevent it from coming loose later.
3) Press on the wheels using the arbor press. I recommend checking the wheel as it is going on, because you need the wheel to go on straight. I often end up pulling the wheels off halfway through the process and trying again, because they are not going on straight.
Nationwidelines - Welcome to Trains.com!
I guess I should clarify two items relating to the repairs / rewheeling I described. I do not recommend buying a wheel press from a train parts source, unless you want to spend 5 to 10 times what you should be paying. I purchased a brand new bench top arbor press for around $30 on ebay. Kind of the same thing on the drill press. I have a small used bench top drill press. It is big enough for the job and although I got mine used, I know that new ones are cheap.
I typically do not use wheel cups when pressing on new wheels. One reason is that I am not sure what size would be correct and most of the train parts places are advertising Lionel wheel cups. I just hold the engine and eyeball it.
I like to run my engines and I have probably rewheeled 30 engines this way. Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult.
NWL
One last clarification and opinion.
I did look at TTRP's website and saw the axles they are listing. There is one that is labeled "drive axle" that appears as if it is meant to replace the drive axles on these engines. One thing I noted about these axles is that they are not knurled like the original axles and I am not sure how good they would work.
I know that the bearings in the original motors, if they have them (in some early motors the frame is the bearing) do wear and the axles can have play in them. I have had one engine that the bearings were worn through and I had someone else install new bearings and axles in that engine. Although the engine with the new bearings and axles runs good, I am overall not pleased with the repairs to this engine.
The reason for my displeasure is that these O gauge motors do not come apart easy and do not go back together well. This engine now has screws holding the frame together and one of them rubs on the wheels. I am not sure that any other method could be done to put one of these engines back together, so I have avoided installing new axles and bearings on other engines.
I have a friend who says that when he finds worn bearings on O gauge engines, he reems the bearing out so that it will take a larger size axle. Then once the larger axle is installed, there is no play in the axle. I have not tried this method and would be afraid that I would not center the new axle properly and would somehow screw up the operation of the engine.
By just leaving the axles with some play, the wheels/axles might flop around a bit, but providing you keep the engine oiled, there should be no problem in its operation.
Another tip, rewheeling steam engines is more difficult as the wheels typically need to be quartered correctly to re-install the drive rods. Additionally, I do not care for the steam engines that have the cast gear on the backs of the drive wheels. I have found that the gears on new wheels do not always work well and have stripped a pair during operation.
Just some thoughts.
Nationwidelines Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult. NWL
Prior to getting the arbor press, I used a bench press to push on the new wheels. It is a little bit harder this way, as one is working sideways and the balancing of the engine is more difficult.
I meant to say I used a bench mounted vise to press the wheels on.
Thank you to both of you for the detailed and excellent ideas and instructions. I am so grateful for your responses as this is all new stuff to me.
I did the recommended hammer/punch on the thigh technique which did indeed free up the drive wheels. So I now know it is not an axle/bearing problem. The reason I thought it might be the wrong axle (wide gauge) is because none of the O gauge axles pictures on the Restoration Parts site had splined ends, whereas the picture of the wide gauge axle did (which mine do). I'm thinking now that they are the correct O gauge axles because of the knurled comment.
I will need to re-wheel it as two of the wheels are split and the other two are on the verge of crumbling.
I'll check on getting an arbor press.
Great information guys - I really appreciate it.
Harbor Freight has 1/2 ton arbor presses for $28 on their website. That is the size I have.
I also use two shims when pressing the wheels on, because the axle generally needs to stick out beyond the wheels in order to have the correct spacing of the wheels to fit between the rails.
NationWideLines,
Welcome to the forums and to this thread. Thanks for providing the great information and help to Craig. I am not particularly knowledgeable about the inner workings of the engines nor about repair. Your responses not only helped him, they have also given me some valuable information about addressing some of the repairs that I need to do on pieces of my equipment.
Its good to have you here and offering your expertise.
strainst,
Thanks for you help too. Its good to know that there are people reading and posting that can help with questions or resources and suggestions.
Yes I also give my Thanx for the information posted!
The Jeffersonian . . . . continued.
I'm finally back to continue the description of my neighbor's set which I started one page back.
The set comes with its original set box, and all of the individual boxes.
I noted a few pages back that someone had posted pictures of 1107-1108 variations. Here are a few more.
First is a B& O passenger car from 1917. It features Type III frame and type IV couplers. I also noted that the lettering is thicker than the lettering on the c. 1918 and later cars.
The Jeffersonian . . . . continued,
The next box out of the set box also has a version of the American Flyer tape used to seal boxes.
Beautiful set! I can't imagine that many of these are still around in this condition.
This is a set I recently purchased and am not sure what it is. Actually I now have two of them.
The cars and engine are green. The engine is a 3107 and has a manual reverse. The baggage car is marked 3150, the passenger car is marked 3161 and the observation car is marked 3162. I believe the markings in silver are stamped rather than decals. The passenger and observation cars are lighted.
I have just gone back over this thread from the beginning and did not see this exact set pictured. Maybe I missed it. I believe the Highlander set had these three cars, but the engine was a steam engine. I also think this might be the Frontenac set, but am not sure about that. From thread comments here and there, and a site which lists all AF engines, I'm guessing the set is from 1930, maybe a year or two later.
Both engines need re-wheeling, and I have re-wired one. I've ordered the wheels and will have a wheel puller and arbor press soon and will follow the very helpful suggestions and step-by-step y'all provided earlier.
Is it the Frontenac? Also what is a Frontenac? Near I can figure it is a town in either Canada, Minnesota, Kansas, or Missouri.
Thanks,
What you have is indeed a "Frontenac" set. Way back on the second page of this thread I have a picture of my set which appears to be a deeper green in color and I am also missing the #3150 baggage.
Those photos were posted almost 4 years ago before I posted much information about items. The Frontenac appeared in Flyer Catalogs from 1930-1932. I'll post some additional information and a photo of the catalog page a bit later when I have some time.
Nice set.
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