Chris,
First of all let me say Thank You for your very generous offer, and for being a willing participant in the thread. When I started the thread way back in January I was hoping to encourage and perhaps entice people just like yourself into participating and posting pictures. One of the reasons being that I found so little information on line about PreWar Flyer. I agree with Mersenne6 that those of us who collect and research these toys are very much in the minority (ok, maybe we are even on the fringe). I have enjoyed posting and researching and communicating with others who do find their way here while looking for information on Flyer. Even among Flyer collectors I think it is the S gauge line that draws far more attention and pursuit. In fact my S gauge collection is much larger than my PreWar collection. I know that when I first started learning and researching and gathering resources it was a real hunt. I wish that there had been a site like this available. I gathered anecdotal information from dealers and a few collectors. I had files of information. Once some of the reference books came out it was much easier, but I still value the contacts that I made in gaining information.
I think I am in the same gondola with Mersenne6 when it comes to the information that we post here. For now at least I would like to keep the thread going as it is. Besides, I'm old enough to still think that some of the best things in life are free. Do you really think someone would pay to have a guided tour around the tracks in Wausau? The widget factory is still producing around the clock in three shifts.
By the way, I think that the blue passenger coach that you have posted may be from one of the un-numbered passenger sets - The Blue Bird.
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Happy to join the discussion, and happy to post pictures! Here's some of an AF 561 I restored. It was an eBay purchase that the Post Office played with (roughly).
Before
I'm still working on the 494/495 baggage and passenger cars:
Would someone with the Greenberg's Guide to AF Wide Guage kindly comment on the years of manufacture of the President's Special and Flying Colonel Wide Guage sets? I think the first President's Special was 1926, with tan litho cars, then in 1928 the cars were blue litho, then in 1929-193X the set was painted Rolls Royce Blue. Is that right? What year(s) was the Flying Colonel catalogued? It's frustrating to be temporarily away from my reference material
Thanks,
Jim Kelly
I'll see if I can check my references this evening and post something about your trains Jim- In the meantime the issue of the shrinking picture has returned. I'll try to replace these this weekend. I have to wonder if we aren't bumping up against some kind of pictures/thread limit - if so it doesn't bode well for the future...oh well, we'll see what we'll see.
First Presidential Special - 1926 0-4-0 Tan Boxcab with Tan litho cars
1927 -4-4-4 Dark Blue with Dark Blue litho cars
1928 - 1934 4-4-4 Two Tone Blue with Two Tone Blue Enamel Cars
1929 Flying Colonel Set - 4-4-4 only year it shows up in the catalogs
Thanks for the helpful reply. As we know, AF prewar is sometimes difficult to pin down due to factory practices of using what is in hand and making up trains as they went along. In the picture I posted earlier, the blue 0-4-0 is part of a President's Special blue litho set. This wheel configuration is consistent with that of tan 4039 that pulled the 1926 President's special set. Perhaps in 1927 AF sold the set both ways - with an 0-4-0 and a 4-4-4 ? The blue loco has four American Flyer plates and a remote reverse, but no bell ringer.
That is very true. After looking at your post (somehow I missed the connection between the two engines you had pictured) I went back and re-read the section on the NYC style. It turns out that the Flying Colonel was a 1928 intro but it wasn't shown in the catalog. As for the blue 0-4-0 the Wide Gauge book doesn't offer a thing, but, as noted before, variation was the norm with Flyer.
Chris/Cubster,
Your restoration of the 561 is indeed impressive. I would never have guessed what it had looked like without that "before" picture. I look forward to seeing the final product on those cars too. I recently bought a lot of those cars on eBay, I think there were 9 in all, in various conditions. There is a decent set of red cars, basically operator quality, and the thing that really attracted me was that someone had fashioned an observation for the set to make it look like a streamlined car. It's not the best workmanship but it fits in with the operator quality of the other cars. Some day I may get around to trying my hand at restoring the other cars.
As you probably know your 561 was available in 1940 and 1941 and is a fine example of Gilbert's moving into the 3/16 O gauge line. The 561 had the number rubberstamped under the cab window in 1941. It was this 3/16 casting the Gilbert used for the S-gauge line after the war. If you concentrate on the 3/16 production you will really be concentrating on a "fringe" aspect of Flyer.
Northwoods Flyer
Welcome back skeptic49,
Thanks for posting the pictures of the two blue engines. I did a little poking around in my library and came up with some more information on your 0-4-0. The first thing that I noticed was that the 4 name plates are brass with black lettering on them. According to the Greenberg book on Wide Gauge Flyer in 1927 the Number and Data plates have black lettering on brass, and the 1928 and later plates have brass lettering on black backgrounds. So the mystery engine is consistent with the 1927 production.
I then went and dug out an older reference from 1971. You are probably familiar with Russel Park's book American Flyer Wide Gauge. I went poking through there and on page 28 he describes your set. The pictures in the book are incredibly small otherwise I would try to post a picture of the set, but this is his description of it:
"4677 President's Special Loco is 0-4-0 model. The engine was factory repainted to match the 1927 President's Special cars. This set was generally packed with the 4687 4-4-4 (the top engine in your picture) locomotive. Other locos of this color known are 4667(a NYC type)and 4687(I wonder if he means that this was a 4687 without the pony trucks). In T.C.A. circles this set is affectionately called: "The Poor Mans President Special" "
Thanks for the intriguing photos. Are these part of your collection? I only have a lithographed baggage car from the 1927 set.
WOW! Thanks for the info Mersenne6 and Northwoods Flyer.
Yes, these blue locos (and the cars) are recent acquisitions. The quote from the Russell Parks book appears to be dead on in regard to the 0-4-0 loco. The inside of the cab is tan and I can see evidence of tan under the blue, which confirms Park's assertion that these blue 0-4-0s were 1927 factory repaints of tan locos to match the 1927 blue litho PS cars. Maybe the 4-4-4 design was not ready in time and was added to later 1927 blue litho sets? Fascinating!
The 4-4-4 loco in the picture is a 4686, "The Ace," which is the loco that goes with the Flying Colonel cars. There are three different shades of blue on these two locos. The lightest shade is on the 0-4-0 cab and roof and matches the blue litho cars. The cab of the 4-4-4 is a darker shade of blue (that matches the color of the Flying Colonel cars) and the roof is a still darker almost blue-purple shade.
I'll try to take and post some pictures of the cars that go with these two locos.
Jim
Here are the passenger cars that go with the two blue locos. First, the Flying Colonel set:
Here is the 1927 blue litho President's Special set:
Jim,
Thanks for the pictures of these great sets. I am always amazed when I think of the work and detail that went into Flyer's Wide Gauge Line. Its hard to imagine that these trains were intended to be playthings for children. Talk about lucky kids
1200 Series Passenger Cars - Addendum
I have an addition to make to the 1200 series of O gauge passenger cars. It is the number 1306. Obviously the numbering doesn't fall into the 1200 range, but the lithography used on the car matches that used on the 1200 series.
The 1306 is a passenger car
It was made from 1922 to 1926. The lettering on the car is white. It came in blue, a dark blue, green and a dark green, brown and red. This is the brown version with type II trucks. It came with a variety of trucks and in either 4 or 8 wheel versions.
Here are a few more views of the 1306. This is the only version in the collection at this point.
3016 Sand Car - Addendum II
I am a firm believer in the old addage that "all good things come to those who wait". I waited long enough and I have recently aquired the orange version of the 6 1/2" sand car. I have heard that it only appeared for one year and only in one set, the 1931 set called The Railroader. It is relatively difficult to find, but not nearly as difficult as its big brother, the 9 1/2" #3207 orange sand car. I posted other versions of the 3016 on page 5 and on page 12 of this thread.
As with most of the items in my collection it is operator quality, and that is exactly what I do with all of my pieces.
The sand car has the same gold rubber stamped "A.F.L.", type VIII trucks and type VIIc couplers as the more common green version.
And a comparison view with its more common green siblings.
How did such an excellent thread get back to third page?! Some photos of my favorites. These run very smoothly at lower voltages than Lionel locomotives, and they are beasts! It's unfortunate AF couldn't hang in there (pre-Gilbert): the later Chicago locomotives run great, looked more prototypical each year, were very well built and were strong pullers. I'm still looking for a 436 Pacific, 434 Atlantic and the 1681 Hudson (a year prior to Lionel's famous 700); the open-spoke drivers on the last two make them especially handsome, IMHO.
Here's a picture of my 425 2-6-4. I love this locomotive: it runs very smoothly, and it's a beast!
And my Dad's 431 0-6-0 (now mine). This was my absolute favorite when I was a kid, I guess because it looked more realistic than Dad's other trains from the 1930s. Dad's trains only came out for a couple months around Christmas, but I have many fond memories attached to this one!
Thanks for lookin' - post some of yours!
4615-4 Locomotive
Thanks for posting the great pictures of your engines. I appreciate that you have kept family pieces. My family pieces are the ones that I treasure the most. I agree that Flyer was doing a great job of producing more realistic castings of engines towards the end of Chicago production, before the sale to Gilbert.
Here are some pictures of a 4615-4 that I have in my collection. I don't have either of the examples that you have. It uses the same casting (designated as Type XVI in Greenberg's book) as your 425.
It uses the open spoke wheels that you mention in your post.
It was only produced in 1938, where your two engines were produced in 1939 and 1940 - Which technically make them Gilbert production.
I am missing the appropriate semi-Vanderbilt tender that came with the engine, but then that gives me something to look for in my hunting.
Thanks again for posting, you have some great pieces in your collection. Good luck in your hunting.
Hi Northwoods.....you noted that you have a number of inherited pieces. You may have answered this before, so bear with me. It appears from your pictures over the course of this thread that you maintain the original (acquired) condition of your pieces, though I think you have also dabbled in repainting some of those that were deteriorating and could only be saved by restoration.
Since there is so much back and forth discussion on the CTT Forum about leave alone vs. touch up vs. complete restoration, I think your opinion might help a lot of folks struggling with this issue.
Thanks again to you and mersenne for this thread. I may have no AF/AC Gilbert, but I find this historical pictorial fascinating. The number of views of this thread confirm I am not alone.
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Northwoods Flyer wrote:Which technically make them Gilbert production.
Which technically make them Gilbert production.
I did not realize that - thank you, Northwoods Flyer. What year did Gilbert move production out of Chicago? Your 4615-4 is handsome, and the open spoke drivers look great! I'm waiting to see which of the ones I mentioned "drops into my lap" first.
Cubster,
All of the references that I have read indicate that Coleman sold American Flyer to (or worked out some kind of a deal with) Gilbert in 1938. Its unlikely that Gilbert had the time to change the product line that year, but by 1939 the production had been moved to New Haven, bringing the Chicago Flyer era to an end. The catalogs indicate that all of the old models of Flyer were gone by 1941. There is a nice concise and I think relatively accurate history of American Flyer trains on Wikipedia. This link should get you there, or just type in American Flyer at the site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flyer
The Greenberg Guide by Alan Schuweiler and published by Kalmach (no I didn't get paid for the plug) is also an excellent source for historical information. Both editions are great, but the Second edition has more photos and updated information. It is out of print now, but there are copies available on the secondary market usually going for more than the original selling price.
Edit: The original asking price is $49.95, and I just saw one go on eBay for almost $120.00.
You will have to let me know when those engines that you mention start dropping into your lap; I want to be sitting right next to you for some of the overflow.
RockIsland52 wrote: Hi Northwoods.....you noted that you have a number of inherited pieces. You may have answered this before, so bear with me. It appears from your pictures over the course of this thread that you maintain the original (acquired) condition of your pieces, though I think you have also dabbled in repainting some of those that were deteriorating and could only be saved by restoration.Since there is so much back and forth discussion on the CTT Forum about leave alone vs. touch up vs. complete restoration, I think your opinion might help a lot of folks struggling with this issue.Thanks again to you and mersenne for this thread. I may have no AF/AC Gilbert, but I find this historical pictorial fascinating. The number of views of this thread confirm I am not alone.Jack
Jack,
I hope you don't mind but I decided to answer your questions in a seperate thread. Its entitled
Personal Guidelines for Collecting - an Opinion
Thanks for the giving me an opportunity to wax eloquent.
1621 and 1622 Deluxe Streamlined Passenger Cars
Flyer cataloged streamlined passenger cars from 1936 through 1940. I posted some pictures of my green set a while ago in a Sunday Photo Fun thread. I will post them here again.
They are sheet metal and came in only two types: coaches
and observation cars.
The observations in all sets have what is called the conventional "boat tail" design.
The observation car in the Hiawatha set has a special design. Those of us who follow the Milwaukee Road know it as a "beaver tail" - one of these days I may be able to edit in a picture of it here.
These were the top of the line O gauge passenger cars. Flyer used the streamlined cars for the first time in 1936 for the Union Pacific streamliner and the Hiawatha set. Over the years of production the cars were pulled by Hudsons, Pacifics and Atlantics. The cars come in yellow(the Union Pacific set), orange (the Hiawatha set), blue, red, green and chrome.
My green three car set is from 1938.
In my photos I show the cars pulled behind a Type XI tender, which is streamined and appeared in 1936-1937. It was used to pulled the Hiawatha cars and painted in appropriate Milwaukee Road colors. I am not sure that it ever pulled any other color sets, but it looks great with them.
American Flyer Passenger Cars IV
Large Passenger Cars: lithoed 9 ½ inch, enameled 9 ½, 8 ½ inch and enameled 11 inch.
Lithographed Passenger 1922-1934
The first of these cars appeared as part of Flyer's 20th Century set in 1922. The cars came with and without lights. The baggage was lithoed with the number 3000 and the passenger cars with the number 3001. The litho treatment was either dark green or a sort of reddish-brown. The dark green passenger cars had the name "Illini" under the windows while the reddish-brown cars were labeled "Columbia"
The first versions were pulled by the No. 3020 and they could only be pulled by this engine because they, and the engine, had an odd harpoon style coupler (interestingly enough the coupler was a close match for the coupler that appeared on KBN trains from the same period). The lights in the early cars were actually a removable wiring kit and the wire was threaded from car to car via notches in the car roof and from the baggage car the wire plugged into a special socket on the top of the No. 3020. Later versions of the cars came equipped with roller pickups.
Illustration of harpoon coupler and electric light connection
The first train sets consisted of #3020, a baggage and either one or two passenger cars. In 1925 Flyer added an observation car. In 1926 the litho changed to a lighter green and the couplers became the familiar hook style which allowed interchange with the rest of the Flyer car fleet.
#3020
Baggage
Passenger
Observation
The set above was purchased from the family of the original owner. The set is curious in that the baggage and the passenger car have through the roof wiring whereas the observation has roller pickups in addition to the later style of trucks. The observation could be a later add on or the set could just be another example of Flyer's using up existing stock. The family did have an early picture of the train on the floor and it is obvious that the cars above are in the picture the problem is there wasn't any date and so I don't know if it was a "first Christmas" picture or one taken at a later date. Either way, the train set is an interesting one and it is a lot of fun to run.
Changes in car construction:
Early version (Left) - roof latched to car with a wire loop release, air tanks on underside, black frame, litho either dark green or reddish brown.
Later version (Right) - roof snaps on over a ridge on the top of the car, no air tanks, frame painted green, litho lighter green only.
Enameled Cars 1928-1935
3180 series - 8 ¼ inch
Car types - 3180 Club Car, 3181 Pullman, 3182 Observation
Common colors - green roof, tan body, brass plate "The Potomac" over window
Less common - blue green body with darker blue green roof, brass plate "Golden State"
over window.
Brass plates under windows were either "Club Car", "Pullman" or "Observation"
3280 series - 9 ½ inch
Car Types - 3280 Club Car, 3281 Pullman, 3282 Observation
Color - Blue green with darker blue green roof - colors in darker and lighter hues
Brass labels of either "Golden State" or "Jeffersonian". Later decal "American Flyer" over windows.
3380 Series 1928-1935 - 11 inch
The 11 inch series 3380, 3381, 3382 is the Ambassador series. The illustrated car is an Ambsssador series car, however, instead of a brass plate with the word "Ambassador" over the windows this car has a brass plate with the word "Jeffersonian" and the brass plates under the windows indicate it is #3281 - this car is just another instance of the vagaries of the American Flyer production line.
American Flyer Passenger Cars V
Wide-Low Profile Cars 6 ½ and 8 ½ inch cars
These cars were introduced in the 1930 Flyer catalog. While cars of this length were already part of the Flyer offerings the height and side stampings were completely different.
6 ½ Inch Cars
The 6 ½ inch cars were offered in both 4 and 8 wheel configurations. The cars have brass window and door inserts and in the case of the observation brass railing and canopy. The first versions were offered with what looks like rubber stamping but is actually an embossing. According to Greenberg this was probably by means of a silver coated tape transfer. The marking consist of "American Flyer Lines" on the letterboard above the windows and either the car number or the letters "A.F.L" in panels below the windows. Often when only "A.F.L" is present the actual car number can be found rubber stamped on the underside of the car. Later versions of these cars were offered with decals in place of the rubber stamps.
4 wheel: Numbering 3140 - Baggage (1932-1933), 3141- Pullman, 3142 - Observation (1930-1932)
Colors - Red, Orange, Green
8 Wheel: Numbering 3150 - Baggage, 3151 - Pullman, 3161 - Observation (1930-1933)
Colors - Green, Violet-Blue, Orange
Violet-blue with stamping
Green with decals
8 ½ Inch cars
Offered from 1930-34, 1936-38 These cars came with a variety of side labels both brass plates and decals.
3171 Pullman
Colors tan and a green roof came with brass plates with either "American Flyer Lines", "The Potomac", or "Golden State" on the letterboard above the windows and brass plates "American Flyer" and "Pullman 3171" on the left and right of the car below the windows.
When the switch was made to decals, a decal with "American Flyer Lines" was on the letterboard above the windows and either two small "American Flyer" or one "American Flyer" one "Pullman" decal below the windows.
The switch also saw new colors - a blue green body and a silver roof - or a red body and roof. When Gilbert took over the line these two paint styles were cataloged as 404 (Pullman) and 405 (Observation).
3172 Observation - similar markings and paint styles as the 3171 Pullman except that in place of plates the word "Pullman" this car had the word "Observation". With the change to decals the car could be found with "Pullman" or "American Flyer" in place of the word "Observation".
3176 -Pullman and 3177 Observation - tan sides with green roof or red sides with darker red roofs - unlighted 1931 and 1937.
Tan and green - brass plates all with "American Flyer"
3178 - Pullman and 3179 Observation - Cadmium plated cars as part of the set pulled by #9915. Plated cars offered in 1935 only. Cars had sheet metal simulated vestibules on the ends. Carts were lighted and observation came with or without a huge red tail light mounted under the canopy.
This style and number can also be found with a body with blue-green paint and a silver roof.
#9915
Cadmium plated Pullman
Cadmium plated Observation with rear light under canopy
I'm looking for information on this set I just found in my Father in laws attic. (Google got me here) If any additional photos would help, please let me know what they should include. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Ken
Ken,
Wish I'd found that in my attic! Set is #1730 from 1937. If one of the coaches
has a whistle it would be #1730RW, 1936. The '38 & '39 offerings were 4 car sets.
Dixie RR AF - Absolute Finest
Thanks for the quick response! Didn't see a whistle on (in) any of the cars, just lights. Any idea on what this is? Thanks again for the help!
to the thread 950 and Dixie RR. Its always great to have new folks find their way to the forums and to this American Flyer Thread.
950 - Ken,
I agree with Dixie RR, I'd love to find a set like that in anyone's attic. You have one of the Union Pacific Deluxe Streamlined sets. As Dixie RR pointed out it is most likely the 1730 set from 1937 because it has no whistle. If it had a whistle it would have run on the special 4-rail track that Flyer designed. Union Pacific Sets were marketed by Flyer from 1936-1939 with some variations each year.
Here are a few photos of the 1936 catalog page and information.
Here is a bit more information about the Union Pacific set from Greenberg's Guide to American Flyer Pre-War trains by Alan Schuweiler:
"The Union Pacific Railroad was a pioneer in the development of streamlined trains, and toy train manufacturers were quick to copy these colorful new trains that attracted much of that era's media attention. In 1934 Lionel introduced a scale Union Pacific, the No. 751 set. Two years later both Lionel and American Flyer offered models of the City of Denver trains. Both manufacturers's sets featured zinc alloy die-cast power cars and sheet metal cars.
Train units were interconnected with the same system of semi-vestibules used on the Bulington Zephyr. (Just as your picture shows) ....
The 1936 set included a whistle in the leading coach, but it was deleted in later years....
The sides of the cars are finished in vivid Union Pacific yellow, with Union Pacific brown roofs in the early years of production. After 1938 the yellow became more subdued...."
Its a great looking set and it looks to be in nice condition. So are there any other goodies hiding up there in the attic?
The button that you posted a picture of is from the era of Gilbert production; after 1938. It is an accessory activating button, and usually has two Fahnstock clips on the bottom to attach wires. With the decal missing my guess it is just a generic accessory button, and from the look of it I would say it is early Gilbert Flyer production. Many of them in the following years have the name of the accessory on the decal.
What a great way to start a collection. I hope you have other great finds ahead of you.
In reading thru previous post I've noted that there are a number of operators.
Is anyone using any of the newer type of track- Fastrack, Atlas, MTH? Switches?
Most problems seem to be the switches. Your input would be greatly appreciated.
(waitin' on the Hurricanes in the Sunny South)
Dixie RR
Northwoods and Dixie -
Thank you both! I shared the information with my wife and she was just fascinated as well. No other goodies of the model train variety were found - but this was a welcomed gift. Her and her family decided that I should have it as I still have HO as well as a few Lionel trains around the house. These sets are from my youth and while I really don't have time for the hobby at least one Lionel makes it around the tree each year.
This set, after I clean it, and find a few pieces of the correct track for it, will be displayed in my home office. I am just amazed by the construction and will enjoy it for years to come.
Thanks again.
Dixie RR,
There are several threads on the forum that discuss the relative merits and short comings of each of the types of track systems, so I think if you do a search you will come up with them.
On occasion I have been invited to display my trains at local train shows or other venues. I had been using some very old, and as I found out, damaged tubular track. I had more frustration than fun with it because of electrical problems. I looked at the systems available and decided to invest in Fastrack because of the ease of putting it together, the nice tight connections that the design affords and the good and reliable electrical connections, and I personally liked the way it looked. It fit what I needed for a temporay and easily assembled and disassembled display layout. My home layout is still very much a temporary layout intended to give me a place to watch the trains in action. Since I had started with Fastrack I purchased more of it to use at home as well. I have no switches yet, the layout is just two independent loops so I can't comment on their performance, although I am thinking of adding a passing siding. My Flyer trains run well on it and have no problems to date. So for my purposes Fastrack fit the bill.
Here are some pictures of my Fastrack
You can see how temporary the track really is and why I call my layout the BlueBoard Central Division of American Flyer Lines.
950 wrote: Northwoods and Dixie - Thank you both! I shared the information with my wife and she was just fascinated as well. No other goodies of the model train variety were found - but this was a welcomed gift. Her and her family decided that I should have it as I still have HO as well as a few Lionel trains around the house. These sets are from my youth and while I really don't have time for the hobby at least one Lionel makes it around the tree each year.This set, after I clean it, and find a few pieces of the correct track for it, will be displayed in my home office. I am just amazed by the construction and will enjoy it for years to come.Thanks again. Ken
I am glad that the information helped. Its nice that the Union Pacific set will find an honored place in your office. Is your Father in law still living to tell you any stories about it? I like hearing stories that talk about family trains that are still in the family. I hope that it spurs you on to enjoying the hobby in any way you can.
Enjoy.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.
Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month