Northwoods,
I guess I need to clarify one thing about red windups. The Cast Iron red windups are relatively rare and were likely made as 1-year variations. There are several red sheetmetal windups made by Flyer and they are more common than the cast iron ones.
Here are examples of the red cast iron windups in my collection.
The above engine is a #16 red windup with silver trim from the Prairie State set. This is a late casting, as the engine only features AF on the side and not AF 16. I believe the set was produced around 1929 or 1930. The set features a red 120 tender and 3 8 wheel, 6.5 inch, red lithographed cars that simply say American Flyer above the windows.
The above engine appears to be the same engine that you posted. This is a small windup engine. I have this engine with a boxed NWL set that is c. 1933. The set is late enough that only the box states Nation Wide Lines and the cars themselves have American Flyer lettering on them.
The above engine, although seemingly identical to the 2nd engine I posted, is in fact slightly different. The difference is in the area behind the cab window and below the cab window. There is no bell; however, there is a bracket for one with the bracket apparently broken many moons ago due to rust on the break. I am not sure that a motor with the bell mounted behind it would fit into this casting.
The next pictures shows the engines side by side in order to contrast the differences between the two castings.
At first one might think that the modification is simply in the skirting below the cab window, but a closer examination of the two, indicates that the one with the bell present on the motor has a longer deck behind the cab and that the pin connecting to the tender is in fact in a location that is further behind the cab window than the pin connecting to the tender on the motor without the bell. This difference is why I question whether there was a bell on this engine from the factory. To me, it did not appear as if the bell would fit into the casting.
NWL
So here is a quiz question. What is this?
Bonus points if you can tell me what is a relatively rare item on this car and why?
It's a boxcar. Is it the lithoed door?
Also, I finally have some prewar American Flyer on the way, bought a 401 engine off the bay.
tinplatacis It's a boxcar. Is it the lithoed door?
But which boxcar? (Looking for the general number of the car and years produced)
No the litho door is not the rare item, but it is a clue as to which boxcar this is.
I'm going to do a little guess work here. This looks like one of the 3008 boxcars from 1925 - 1927. I thought the 3008 series was all lithographed; so an enameled paint job is unusual. Its odd too that there is not some identification. Is this another one of your odd ball pieces, something like a paint sample from the factory? The die cast door handle is unusual. The smooth roof is also unusual, also because the roofs of the 3008s were black.
I'm done guessing now.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods Flyer I'm going to do a little guess work here. This looks like one of the 3008 boxcars from 1925 - 1927. I thought the 3008 series was all lithographed; so an enameled paint job is unusual. Its odd too that there is not some identification. Is this another one of your odd ball pieces, something like a paint sample from the factory? The die cast door handle is unusual. The smooth roof is also unusual, also because the roofs of the 3008s were black. I'm done guessing now. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Northwoods
You are correct it is a 3008 litho boxcar from the 1925-1927 era.
This car
Is likely either the Nickel Plate Road car or the Great Northern car
There are 3 signs that this car is of the 3008 series boxcars.
1) The most obvious is the lithographed door
2) Next, the smooth roof with no ribs, but the center ridge
3) Not commented on is the smooth sides of the car body. The later bodies had ribs/embossed details.
As far as the door handle, that is common on these cars. I do not think that Flyer converted their litho door handles from the grab handles to brass knobs until late 1927 or 1928. I have never seen any of these boxcars without the grab handles, but know that later illini cars with litho doors have the brass knobs that appear on all 1928 and later 3208 boxcars.
As for what this car is, I am not really sure and purchased it for parts. I do not actually have it in my possession and the photo posted comes from the ebay listing.
The rare item on the car, was correctly guessed by Northwoods, being the smooth roof that only appeared on the 3008 boxcars from 1925-1927. I should mention that smooth roofs were common on the early cars, but in this length they are less common.
Could the car be a paint sample? I am not sure and will examine it when I get it. I know that the colors appear to closely match the early standard gauge box car colors and that the door must have been removed from the car prior to its painting (otherwise it would have paint on it), but it appears that the body was not removed from the frame when painted and that makes me wonder.
I am not sure that there will be any manner to tell if it was a sample or not and I am likely to use the car for parts.
I can say that it appears that the litho on the car body has peeled badly after it was painted and it may have been peeling prior to the paint job (in fact that may be the reason it was painted by a previous owner). I cannot say.
Nationwidelines Northwoods, (snip) Here are examples of the red cast iron windups in my collection. The above engine is a #16 red windup with silver trim from the Prairie State set. This is a late casting, as the engine only features AF on the side and not AF 16. I believe the set was produced around 1929 or 1930. The set features a red 120 tender and 3 8 wheel, 6.5 inch, red lithographed cars that simply say American Flyer above the windows. The above engine appears to be the same engine that you posted. This is a small windup engine. (snip) NWL
(snip)
The above engine appears to be the same engine that you posted. This is a small windup engine. (snip)
I have the cars for the Prairie State set that NWL mentions above.
When I purchased my cast iron engine I thought I was purchasing the correct engine for the set. Once I got it I realized that I didn't have the correct one. I'm happy to know that the red cast iron engines are less common. I'm still on the hunt for a red #16. Until I find one I have my Prairie State set paired with the #3014 in black.
So I finally got an American Flyer piece, a gunmetal 401 with decals and copper trim. It has 2 problems: A), the reverse is finiky. Any idea how to remedy/fix that? B), that thing is a voltage hog! I was trying to run the cleaned and lubed up version with my Lionel RW (20V, 110W, AC output) and can only get it to crawl. Is that normal?
As for the reverse, I would suggest bypassing it or locking it in forward (if possible) as otherwise they become annoying.
As for it running. First thing I would suggest is new springs and brushes. A tune up generally helps these older motors and those are the first things I replace when working on a motor.
I cannot lock it in so far as I can tell. I did the tuneup first thing, I never run an engine unless I tune it up first.
Then it sounds like something is wrong as it should not crawl around the track. It should be a relatively speedy engine.
As for the reverse unit, bypassing it electrically is the only option to make it less annoying.
Lastly, the problem with the engine crawling around the track may be related to the reverse unit. There might be a short or something wrong electrically with the reverse unit that is causing the other problem. Otherwise it sounds like a potential problem with the windings and if it is that, it is not worth fixing.
It goes faster in reverse than forward. Not a brush issue however. I might rewind the stationary f and clean inside while I'm in there.
Trivia Question #20
What is the name of this set? What year(s) did it appear in the catalog?
What makes the engine unique?
It appeared in 1940(?). Is it the fact that the headlight is black rather then matching the trim?
3/16ths passenger cars?
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Nicely done eveyone. I think you got most of the details.
The set appears in the 1940 catalog.
It is Set #4001 Pioneer Passenger Train
1940 puts it in the Gilbert era and they are still using up stock from production in Chicago.
The engine is indeed a #401 and the unique feature that I was refering to was that it had nickle trim, which Gilbert switched to in 1940.
The cars are 3/16ths O gauge.
Its a fairly simple set, but listen to the catalog copy describing it and you can't help but to want to have it speeding around your layout.
"Bright red enamel cars with silver and nickle trim make a vivid picture as they whizz around the track hauled by the husky pressed steel locomotive - finished in realistic locomotive black with nickle trim. Beaming electric headlight and eccentric arm double action piston rods add to the realism - and the tender is piled high with imitation coal."
If it were 1940 I know I'd be putting this set on my Christmas list.
I believe that also at this time the windows on the coaches changed from white to silver, and the belly pans changed from white to black.
Nickel Trim.....
I know that 1940 is typically referred to as the beginning of Nickel Trim, so I offer up this...
This engine/tender came with 3 red 6.5 inch cars that are circa 1939, as they are chicago era enamel coaches with curly couplers. The engine and tender are gunmetal gray in color, with nickel trim on the engine, with 401 rubberstamped under the cab window.
The engine and tender are 100% original and the only thoughts I can offer are that the engine/tender is near the end of production and no billboard stripe decal was available for the tender; therefore, the tender recieved 4 small decals on each corner. It makes for an odd looking tender and no others have been observed with these decals.
NationWideLines,
The transition era from Coleman's Chicago Flyer to Gilbert's Flyer is fascinating. It would be interesting to have some first hand reports of the marketing strategy that was involved. Your example of the grey tender is unique. I wonder how many of them came off the line that way because they had run out of the larger decals.
Here are some photos of the cars that you mention coming with that engine and tender. I have a Type XX engine with a curly que coupler in the front that I paired up with the 1939 cars. I think its an unpowered engine from the double header set that got upgraded to a powered engine. Perhaps another example of Gilbert using up the stock on hand.
That is the set I have with my gunmetal colored engine with the nickel trim. I purchased it as a set several years ago on an auction and have had a number of comments from collectors relating to the tender.
I know that the gunmetal 401 with nickel trim is a reported variation and I have seen at least one or two of them over the years. The tender is more unusual and I have never seen or heard of another decaled similar to it.
I have a gunmetal/nickel, red car set also. I believe that the tender still has the Pennsylvania style decal, but I'll have to verify that.
Also I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
vintageflyer I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
I dont believe that the 6" cars ever had link couplers from the factory. I have seen the freight cars with them but I assumed they were changed with the available truck kits from Flyer.
My experience with the 6 inch cars is that in 1938, when the 9 inch cars had the curly couplers, the 6 inch cars had the hook couplers found on the 1937 cars. In 1939, when the 9 inch cars had the link couplers, the 6 inch cars had the curly couplers on them.
The link couplers do not fit on the 6 inch cars without cutting the ends of the cars, as the couplers will not allow the cars to turn without some modification to the end of the frames.
American Flyer Collectors Club
"The Collector"
Perhaps some of you who read the postings here remember the AFCC - The American Flyer Collectors Club. The club had an official publication called "The Collector" I became aware of the club and its newsletter/magazine in 1989 or 1990. I was busy collecting American Flyer S gauge at the time and I was really excited to find a national club and magazine devoted to American Flyer. I subscribed and had a subscription until the publication ended and I assume the club did too. Once I started getting "The Collector" I discovered that besides the S gauge trains that fascinated me there was a whole era of production of American Flyer Trains before WWII. I had a few submissions accepted and printed and I was delighted to have one of my photo submissions used as the cover for one issue.
Over the years I have acquired the entire run of "The Collector" and from time to time I dig them out and have a wonderful time reading. Members of the AFCC were encouraged to write articles and submit questions and photos. The list of contributors is a "Who's Who" of early train collectors. The information available in that little quarterly publication is amazing. I recommend it if you are interested in American Flyer and particularly if you enjoy the stories told by people who were there at the beginning. I have to admit that in some ways "The Collector" was my inspiration for starting this thread.
Recently I was thumbing through some copies and I came across cartoons created by Bill Pirie. He also wrote a number of articles over the years and often created a cartoon to go along with the theme of the article. His first cartoon appeared in about 1981, I think in Volume 5 No. 1 of "The Collector".
I've done some searching on the internet but haven't been able to find out any information about him. Does anyone know anything about him; was he a cartoonist by trade? Is he someone that was well known in the train collecting community?
I always liked Bill's cartoons from The Collector. Unfortunately, I do not know anything about him.
I posted the same question over on the OGR site and one of the members, Dreyfuss Hudson, provided this link:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,870026
I was sorry to hear of Bill Pirie's passing but it gave me some information about him. He also suggested that I do a Google search for "Bill Pirie model trains" and that provided some additional information. I am continually amazed at the information available from other train enthusiasts and on the internet.
Your link did not work. Can you copy whatever was posted and put it in a post here.
I corrected the link, but you might have to copy and paste it into a new window.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, when Bill Pirie submitted a cartoon to "The Collector" he frequently set it up with an article. Or perhaps its more appropriate to say that he illustrated his article with a cartoon. Here is the article that accompanied the first cartoon that was published in "The Collector". It appeared in Volume 5 No. 1 The Summer Edition of 1982.
Last Call for Dinner
By Bill Pirie #1262
The grotesqque proportions of some of our tinplate treasures would surely lead to bizarre, humorous, and sometimes dangerous situations if these old toys were blown up to full size and actually used by passengers and crew members. As a junior grade railroader years ago I traveled many miles on trains with my parents and was always impressed with the neat joining of passenger coaches and the easy passage possible from one to the other. Arriving home I would couple some A.F. cars together, put them on the table and sit in a chair and study them endlessly, pondering how the miniature passengers were going to make their way out those little lithographed end doors and across that huge reach spanned only by a pair of the t-slot couplers.
An extremely hazardous incident could occur if a passenger on his way to the diner was caught between cars when the “Automatic Brake Stop” was actuated. As everyone knows the engine drivers lock, the train slides to a crashing halt and our poor customer would be squashed like a bug as the slack between the cars slammed together, thanks to American Flyer’s disappearing couplers – unless he was lucky enough to catapult through the door, though in that case he would be plastered to the inside of the bulkhead like a piece of wallpaper, every bone in his body fragmentized.
I was always willing to concede a few points; for instance I could understand that it was patently impossible for a small locomotive powered by a spring to have the ten or twelve wheels of the prototype and was willing to settle for four, but how in the world was that little firemean going to cross that huge chasm between engine and tender with a shovelful of tin coal?
I remember an argument that took place between me and a buddy when we were about seven years old. Influenced by his A.F. engine, he insisted that real engines had red wheels but I paid more attention and knew better; the upshot of this was that train time found us at the station to verify the hue of the engines wheels. For the life of me I can’t remember the outcome but I surely must have won the argument as engines hadn’t had red wheels since about the eighteen seventies, and my childhood was spent at a much later date.
If you are wondering what the American Flyer disappearing couplers are that Bill is referring to; this is what they look like.
These also happen to be known as "garter loop' couplers.
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