As a person born with a "collector gene" I quickly realized that if I didn't narrow my collecting energies to just a few areas I would be overwhelmed with stuff. I decided to focus on American Flyer Trains. As I look at the number of things in my collection it certainly seems that there isn't much of a limit to my collecting energies. I have occasionally worried that I would run out of things to collect. Well, collecting American Flyer Trains has always provided me with a reason to be on the hunt, and I frequently find some new variation that I don't have or that I didn't know existed.
Recently I picked up a set of 3300 passenger cars, sometimes referred to as "Ambassador Cars". I already have two sets of these cars - one that has plates that say Ambassador and one that has American Flyer Lines plates. I know that as these cars were produced over the years there were many changes. There is a great article in the TCA Quarterly that shows the variation in sets that were in the catalogs. This set comes from late in its production. I purchsed it knowing that there has been some restortion done and because of that I think that some of the variations that it contains may be suspect. To be honest they were just too pretty to pass up.
This is the club car. It is cataloged as #3380.
This one has two 3280 plates and an American Flyer Lines plate above the windows. The air tank is rubber stamped with 3380.
This is the 3381 Pullman
It has Ambassador plates above the windows, two Pullman 3281 plates, and the air tanks are rubber stamped 3381. Notice that there are two styles of trucks. I think that the Type VIII truck is a replacement, but it is done so well they look as if they are factory done.
This is the 3382 Observation, and it has a nice variety or variations.
It has Golden State plates above the windows, one 3282 plate and one 3382 plate. The air tanks are rubber stamped 3382.
I can tell that the roofs were repainted - there isn't a blemish on them. Its hard to tell which of these various parts were installed at the factory during the end of the run of these cars and which were added by a previous owner. No matter which process they help to satisfy my need to find variations.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
Northwoods,
Those cars could be all original with the exception of the repainted roofs that you mention. I have a later set like that and I know it has American Flyer, Jeffersonian, and Golden State plates above the windows on the cars. Yours with the Ambassador plate is the one that I have a Jeffersonian plate on, but that could be simply what was installed at the factory on your car. I know that mine also have the wrong number plates on the sides and the correct number plate rubberstamped on the bottoms of the air tanks.
Not sure if mixed trucks would have came on the cars, but I believe somewhere I have a car that came from the factory with mixed trucks on it. So I would not necessarily discount that either.
Those are nice cars and I have a number of variations of them.
NWL
NationWideLines,
Thanks for your reply and the information. I went back and compared the roofs on the cars to the other sets that I have and I have to say that if they are repaints they are pretty good ones. So now all I have to do is find another 3381 with Jeffersonian plates and I can have a 4 car passenger train with all of the cars tagged differently. Ahhh, something more to look for.
I purchased a red 3116 from the same source.
It is a bit of a puzzle too. The easiest answer that it is a repaint. If it is, the workmanship is close to what I would expect from the factory. I dug out my 3116 from the Potomac set and the 3117 from the other Ambassador set that I have for some comparisons.
These are the handrails and frames for the 3117 and the 3116.
These are the handrails on my suspect 3116
And some side by side comparisons.
The color of the red 3116 and the 3117 is identical.
I'd like to believe that all of this (cars and engine) is factory original; being assembled at the end of produciton of the 3380 cars and using up bodies, tags and paint that they had on hand. What is your oppinion of the 3116 NationWideLines?
The engine and cars make a nice looking set. And the engine runs very well. It runs fast and pulls those three cars as if they are light weight.
Now I will be on the lookout for the Jeffersonian car, and I can start looking for the cars with the red air tanks. The search never ends.
My Man O' War set with the odd 3180/3189 engine/tender combination has the same issue as far as the cars are concerned:
Pullman:
Box and rubber stamp on the underside of the car say 3381
Brass plates say American Flyer and Pullman 3281
Letter board brass plate is Jeffersonian
Club Car
Box and rubber stamp say 3380
Brass plates say club car 3180
Letterboard brass plate says American Flyer Lines
Observation
Box and rubber stamp say 3382
Brass plates say 3282 Obs and American Flyer
Letter board brass plate says American Flyer Lines
Northwoods Flyer I'd like to believe that all of this (cars and engine) is factory original; being assembled at the end of produciton of the 3380 cars and using up bodies, tags and paint that they had on hand. What is your oppinion of the 3116 NationWideLines? Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
The handrails are original and simply a variation from your other engines. However, the variation of handrails that you have is an early version and would appear on the earlier versions of the St. Paul engine cabs. Therefore, I suspect your set is not matched for all being late production.
I use this AF 1122 with my other passenger cars.
Found this other pic to share.
Northwoods Flyer And some side by side comparisons. Northwoods Flyer
I guess I had not paid attention to the photos of your two red engines. I note the one you recently got has the 3116 plates on it instead of the 3117 plates. I believe that your recent purchase is a repainted 3116. I base this not only on the incorrect plates, but also on the fact that your engine does not have the correct frame (cow catchers with flag holders) for the 3117. I think there is a 3117 pictured in the Greenberg's guide with a short frame, but that frame is painted tan for the 3116 and I know where that engine is, so I suspect that your engine is a repaint.
See You on Saturday!
Hello Northwoods Flyer,
I am new to this site and was attracted to your correspondence on the Flyer 3300 series passenger cars. I have been a collector for about 40 years and have always been especially fond of Chicago American Flyer and Ives and I have put much effort into learning all I could about the sets and individual pieces that I have collected over the years. I have passed soem of that knowledge on in articles I occasionally write for the TCA. I was also a reviewer for Greenberg on his first prewar American Flyer books. I know we all have different approaches to our collectiing, mine is to assemble proper sets. With Flyer that can sometimes be a challenge. At any rate I assume from the discussions that you have been having about the 3300 cars that you are at this time trying to assemble the cars into attractive sets using only the Ambassador electic type engine and not the steam engines that the cars pictured would ordinarily go with. My studies and experience have shown that the 3300 cars with cast tanks and window shades were only cataloged with the steam engines. Of course that doesn't preclude what Flyer may have put together when clearing out stock. We all have things we like to do with our old trains and I am raeally greatful to have found this thread wth your wonderful photos and discussions. Hopefully in the future I will be able to attach photos.
Regards, Bob D
Bob D My studies and experience have shown that the 3300 cars with cast tanks and window shades were only cataloged with the steam engines. Of course that doesn't preclude what Flyer may have put together when clearing out stock. Regards, Bob D
My studies and experience have shown that the 3300 cars with cast tanks and window shades were only cataloged with the steam engines. Of course that doesn't preclude what Flyer may have put together when clearing out stock.
Bob,
I am not sure about the validity of your statement, but I would certainly say that the cast iron air tanks are more often found with the steam engines. This would be due to the fact that the 3117/3187 engines were discontinued prior to the cars themselves and that the production features of the cars changed over the years to have the cast iron air tanks and shaded windows on the later production cars only.
I have a c. 1930 Man o War set
Which has a steam engine, but no window shades or cast iron air tanks.
I also have a late c. 1932 3187 engine that has the bell ringing motor from the 1932 steam engines and it has the cast iron air tanks, brass plates with American Flyer, Jeffersonian, and Golden State, and window shades.
So, I although your statement has some truth to it, I would not say it is a fact that one should rely on.
The only rule I know of for the steam engine sets, would apply to early sets only, is that the cars have American Flyer plates above the windows in the early steam sets and sets with the electric engines have Ambassador plates above the windows. This however, changes when Flyer starts to use up the old stock of plates and eventually change to decals instead of brass plates.
The other thing I have not observed and cannot say for certain, is that I have never seen a set with a 3117/3187 engine that has cars with decals. Again, that is likely a production factor, as I think they phased out the 3117/3187 prior to switching to the decaled cars.
Heymrd1313,
Welcome to the forum and to this thread. Thanks for posting the photo of your baggage car. I have a number of the 1220 series cars in both colors. However, I am on the hunt for one of the baggage cars to add to my collection.
I am very impressed with the photos of your layout. What can you tell me about it? It looks like it is on outdoor layout. Or is that a backdrop that makes it looks that way?
Thanks again for posting, and please post more photos.
Bob D,
Its good to have you join us here on the thread. Am I correct in assuming that you are the Bob who wrote the article on the 3300 Series Passenger Cars in the July 2011 Issue of the TCA Quarterly? I have read that article numerous times in order to try to identify the cars that I have been collecting. It has been very helpful.
It sounds as if we have similar experiences in collecting Flyer. Originally I set a goal of collecting representative examples of Flyer equipment. The more I collected the more I became interested in the history of the pieces I had and the history of the American Flyer company. I decided to collect pieces to build the sets pictured in the catalog. It was rare that I could find a complete set or for that matter afford a complete set. This thread is an outgrowth of my desire to find more information and more photos of equipment. It has helped me on several occasions to decide on items to purchase. I have come to believe that my secret goal is to collect one of everything that American Flyer made - variations included! I have also developed an admiration for Ives and have acquired a number of pieces.
I have not limited my collecting of the 3300 Ambassador series cars to those headed up by the electric outline engines, although I am still looking for a 3187. Its just that I haven't found examples of steamers to head up my sets. I'm always on the hunt. As I said in a post earlier on the thread, my next goal is a set of cars with the red air tanks and decals.
Thanks for joining us here. I look forward to seeing your photos.
Again, welcome to the thread. I'm glad you found us.
Thanks for the response. Your Man O War set is one of the nicest I have ever seen. Of course it does not detract from my statement in that the statement did not include the 3300 cars without cast tanks and window shades. The Man O War is the only steam set that had the 3300 cars prior to the release of the newer 3300 cars in 1931. The rest of my conclusions are backed by boxed sets and original owners statements.
I see your point on the fact that 1932 3117/3187 could possibly be found as a set with the "Cumberland" cars as that was the last year for the Ambassador headed by the 3117/3187 and they might have run out of the cars originally slated for it pror to year end. I concur on your last statement. The only 3300 cars I have seen with decals were with the 1934 and 35 steam headed Ambassador sets.
On another subject is there information anywhere that will tell me how to post pictures?
Bob D
If you go to the first page of the forum section the third entry in the forum list has a sticky label on it and is entitled How to post a photo on the forum. It gives some pretty good directions.
Or go here:
http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/250136.aspx
Which should take you to the page of directions.
I use a different method, but this one should work for you. One other free online hosting site not mentioned in the directions is Shutterfly.
I hope we see some photos from you soon.
Thankyou for the hardy welcome. I am the Bob who wrote the article for TCA. As you may remember from the article it all started by me trying to find a missing car and engine for a set given to me by a neighbor. It turned out the set was the Cumberland. In my quest I found out much about the Cumberland and decided I better pass what I found out to other collectors. Primarily I wanted to put to sleep that The big red cars being found together with the plates Jeffersonian, American Flyer Lines, and Golden State were not just careless work from American Flyer. It was the way the Cumberland set was intended to be. The firsl plan for the Cumberland appears to have intended all the cars to be plated with American Flyer Lines. This was carried out on the 1931 Cumberland but the ther must have been a concern over how long that plate would hold out since several of the 1931 sets have been found with the pullman having the Jeffersonian plate. I have not yet seen a 1931 properly documented that that had all the same cars as the 1932 and 1933 Cumberland.
When I first started collecting my interest covered all makes. After a few years I narrowed it primarily to Chicago Flyer and Ives. My desire was to acquire my favorite sets in Standard and O gauge from those two. I have been fortunate in my hunt and at this point I have retained fairly good example of those favorites. While I have at times had som really top notch examples, I have contented myself with played with specimens in very good to excellent condition. Even my boxxed ones wouldn't grade out to mint. I have tried to avoid repaints. I was very pleased to come across your thread and am happy to share my findings to those who may be interested.
I amgoin to try and attach a photo showing my 3300 and 3326 locomotive and tender combinations. Hope it works. "No Luck"
Don't give up on posting photos. Here is what I do with Shutterfly. First of course you have to open a Shutterfly account and upload your photos.
When I use Shutterfly I open the album I want and find the photo that I want to post,
double click on it - which gives you the larger view,
place the cursor on the larger photo,
right click the mouse and find the copy image in the window that opens and click on it,
then come here (or wherever you want to post it) and
put the cursor where you want to paste it,
right click again
and hit paste and like magic..............
The photo appears.
It has always seemed like a simple process.
Hope it works.
Bob D I was very pleased to come across your thread and am happy to share my findings to those who may be interested. I am going to try and attach a photo showing my 3300 and 3326 locomotive and tender combinations. Hope it works. "No Luck" Bob D
I was very pleased to come across your thread and am happy to share my findings to those who may be interested.
I am going to try and attach a photo showing my 3300 and 3326 locomotive and tender combinations. Hope it works. "No Luck"
Here is the photo that Bob was trying to post.
Great examples of the 3300s
Thanks for the kind words about the layout. Like many "older" model train folks my layout is the ONE I could never have had as a kid. With time you sometimes reach that point where that one great layout can be created and I was lucky enough to be able to do mine. Before a description of the layout, I would like to add my thanks to some of the other posters, for sharing your AF collection and knowledge of American Flyer trains. There is a welth is information here. Thanks !
The layout is made of three sheets of 5' X 5" plywood formed into an "L" shape with a triangle filling the inside corner of the "L". It is based on the high desert of New Mexico around Santa Fe. The left side starts with the pine forests that are around Los Alamos and gradually the altitude drops as the layout goes to the right and eventually we end up in the dry desert. Much of the material that covers the layout is natural and was collected and shipped from Santa Fe and Lake Tahoe. ( I shipped almost 40 lbs. of rock and soil from each location.) There are three separate loops each with it's own power supply and also a train yard. The outer loop is the main track, then the mountain loop and the inside is the commuter loop. I like to run a trolley or the Hiawatha Duck tail on it. Some of the buildings are Lionel some Marx and a few AF. There are also some that I made from scratch. The backdrop is made from enlarged" alt="Layout Left" width="750" height="500" />" alt="Layout left" width="750" height="500" /> photos taken from a bluff looking across a valley towards Los Alamos. It took around nine months to complete. The posted pictures show the layout left to right.
You have a terrific looking layout. Thanks for posting the photos. Of course in my opinion the best part of the layout is the prewar American Flyer equipment that you have running on it.
I've been trying to master the camera in my phone; taking the photos, editing them and using the Shutterfly app. The next photos are my first attempt.
Thanks to NationWideLines I now own a New York Central Streamlined set from 1935-1936.
I guess it works.
Enjoying it the World's Greatest Hobby
Nationwidelines The issue I had with the switch frogs, is related to the engines only, as the earlier steam engines and electric boxcab engines have wide flanges on the wheels, which modern trains do not have. The switch frogs on gargraves and ross custom switches (and I cannot honestly say I know about fast-track switches) were not made to accomodate such wide flanges on the wheels and the engines would de-rail when going through the switches. I ended up getting rid of my switches and then had no problems with the track with the prewar trains. NWL
The issue I had with the switch frogs, is related to the engines only, as the earlier steam engines and electric boxcab engines have wide flanges on the wheels, which modern trains do not have. The switch frogs on gargraves and ross custom switches (and I cannot honestly say I know about fast-track switches) were not made to accomodate such wide flanges on the wheels and the engines would de-rail when going through the switches. I ended up getting rid of my switches and then had no problems with the track with the prewar trains.
Ok I understand. I'll keep that in mind. I'm planning a layout using 027 tubular. It'll have a number of switches that I'll build myself that will be similar to the early Marx switches.
I picked this up a while back:
balidas,
You have a nice example of the 3113. Now all you need is the three matching lithographed cars and you will have an example of The Bluebird.
Northwoods Flyer balidas, You have a nice example of the 3113. Now all you need is the three matching lithographed cars and you will have an example of The Bluebird. Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby Northwoods Flyer
Northwood,
I noticed a variation in the roof colors on those cars. Is that a legitimate variation or is it because of your tendancy to piece your sets together?
tinplatacis,
I purchased those cars together as a set. In person the roofs are all the same color. I think that what looks like a variation in color is caused by the lighting in the area where I take photos.
Here is another view of the same set. I think that first passenger car is tipped and catches the overhead light differently.
Heymrd1313
Beautiful layout! In the 2nd photo, is that a Marx Girard station surrounded by a raised wooden deck that your Bluebird is coming up on?
Thank you but I only showed the good side.
Here is the other side:
Whatever that black is it doesn't come off with finger swiping. The geared drive wheels are crumbling & need replacing. One of them spins freely. On the front end there is a wire holding that end of the cab in place.
Despite all that I picked it up because I liked the style & colours & had been wondering what to run behind it. It was listed as the Bluebird but I didn't know it was a set. Thanks for the info.
What is that bar on the botton at the other end? Is that a manual dierctional control?
It was actually the middle car that looked different in the photographs Northwood.
That frame sounds like it has zinc pest, btw
balidas What is that bar on the botton at the other end? Is that a manual dierctional control?
Your assumption is correct. The square bar protruding from the motor is a manual reverse.
You can reverse by hand or use the special accessory that American Flyer designed for the purpose. Below is a series of photos showing its use with a 3115, which also has the manual reverse mechanism.
Good luck with your 3113. I assume you hope to restore it to running condition. There are replacement wheels available. Hennings is starting to offer the line of wheels and parts that Model Engineering Works originally made and marketed.
We are talking about the same car. It is the middle car of the three I have behind the 3113 in the photos posted above. I checked again tonight, just to make sure, and the roofs of the three cars are the same color. I have two 3113s in my collection and both of them have pressed metal frames, not die cast. The pilots on both ends are die cast, but I've never seen a problem with those. I think what we are seeing on balidas' frame and the lithographed body is rust. The crumbling wheels are most likely the result of zinc pest. I'm sure many of these almost 90 year old toys were not always stored with care.
Excellent eye ! That is a Bluebird pulling in to the Marx station. The platform is home made of oak planks as is the one around the station near the power plant and the commuter station in photo's one and two. I was lucky enough to teach wood shop for 37 years and still have acess to my old shop to do all the little wood things for the layout.
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