toy4sonny I collect AF chicago cars. I have dozens of boxes sets plus over 20 random cars pulled by various Type 1 clockwork engines (closed window-open 3 & 4 & 5 ). I only have one 4 window with a type III frame. And whenI put on magnifiers I can see the tabs have been very very carefully bent (probably with soft wooden angled small doll rod's). A good job but with 7X power one can see slight marks on my one car plus the dead "give away" of a little paint missing on tab edges ( ever so slight but always there ). Using old inventory-Maybe. Nothing is impossibe..
I collect AF chicago cars. I have dozens of boxes sets plus over 20 random cars pulled by various Type 1 clockwork engines (closed window-open 3 & 4 & 5 ). I only have one 4 window with a type III frame. And whenI put on magnifiers I can see the tabs have been very very carefully bent (probably with soft wooden angled small doll rod's). A good job but with 7X power one can see slight marks on my one car plus the dead "give away" of a little paint missing on tab edges ( ever so slight but always there ). Using old inventory-Maybe. Nothing is impossibe..
The type III frames are thought to be introduced in 1914, as the 1914 catalog first shows these frames. That being said, the 1914 catalog shows a number of diffferent cars, the 102 car on a type III frame, which uses the same body as the 4 window Chicago cars, the 1107/1108 cars on type III frames, which are the same size as the 4 window Chicago cars, and it shows 4 window Chicago cars. Although I believe that the catalog shows the Chicago cars on the type II frames, it is likely that they were coming on the type III frames. I know that the later Flyer catalogs often re-used earlier artwork with updated descriptions and this is probably the case with the 4 window Chicago cars in 1914.
That being said, I have seen and owned 4 window Chicago cars on the type III frames. The only colors of 4 window Chicago cars I have seen on the type III frames are green bodied and red bodied cars.
Another oddity on the type III frames, is the early tank car, which features the wooden tank, which is nailed onto the frame. I have one of these tank cars on the type III frame.
NWL
toy4sonny, your point is well taken. Indeed it was another reason I thought I had some kind of swap out of frames and bodies of the 4 window Chicago and the #102. Both the first car and the second show small skid marks, you don't need a magnifier to see them, and they are not symmetric from car-to-car as one might expect from something assembled by a machine which had some kind of error in set up. The other thing that is also obvious is that the assembly is a "first-time-through" that is, the tabs do not exhibit the fracture lines in the litho one gets from disassembly and re-bending of tabs.
The marks do suggest manual assembly and between you, me and NWL the car count also suggests an organized assembly process as opposed to someone just tinkering in a basement. So the question becomes one of who did the final assembly - the factory or some other firm who purchased leftover inventory for whatever reason. Either way it had to be to their economic advantage to do so.
If it was the factory using up old inventory it could suggest some kind of an issue with respect to machine assembly. For example the quantity could have been such that making adjustments to the line (set up, scheduling, etc.) cost more than simple manual assembly. The idea of factory manual assembly may seem unreasonable but I have two production error #104 stations which exhibit this level of factory manual assembly (and I've seen others like them for sale) so manual as opposed to machine assembly at the factory is something that was done from time to time.
As for a third party, if the cars were assembled by someone else then they would have had to have purchased the bodies and the type III frames, assembled the cars and, if my set is an example, offered them for sale in Flyer sets. These cars are a puzzle and at this late date I would say the odds of resolving the who, what, when, where, and why of their existence are slim indeed.
Cabooses (or Cabeese?)
American Flyer at times, made some interesting pre-war cabooses. Their first freight cars, which were 5 1/2 inches long, appeared in the 1910 catalog, with no caboose shown, but with a 4 window Chicago car. I believe in 1914 the Flyer catalog showed German made freight cars in their line, and then in 1916 the first American Flyer branded caboose, the Illinois Central 1111 caboose.
The 1916 cabooses are noteworthy for one feature, the cupola's have punched out windows. The early cupolas are also centered on the roof, where some of the later 1111 cabooses have off-centered cupolas.
In 1917 American Flyer made an unusual caboose, the version that uses a Baltimore & Ohio lithographed boxcar body, with unpunched doors.
These cabooses are difficult to find today.
It has been theorized that this caboose was made because American Flyer could not get items from Germany during WW-I. However, for that to be true, then the above 1111 caboose from 1916 would have had to have been made in Germany.
I honestly cannot provide an answer to the question raised by the 1917 caboose. Possibly the 1916 freight cars were made in Germany and that accounts for why the cupola windows from 1917 and on (on the 1111 cabooses) were not punched out.
American Flyer's 1919 catalog shows their new line of 6 1/2 inch freight cars, and the first caboose is also an odd one, using their 6 1/2 inch boxcar body lithographed for a caboose. This car, like the 1917 B&O caboose, has no vestibules/platforms at the ends of the car.
This caboose in addition to having no vestibules/platforms at the ends of the car, features a wider body than the later 1114/1117 cars, which makes the roofs incompatible between the two styles of cars. These cabooses are difficult to find today.
In 1925 American Flyer introduced its 9.5 inch line of freight cars. These longer freight cars, which were lithographed from 1925-1927, did not originally have a matching length caboose. In 1928, as American Flyer was switching from lithographed cars to enamel painted cars, they produced a 9.5 inch caboose to go with their larger freight cars. The first caboose in this line, shown in the 1928 catalog, features a very intricate hand rail system. Although these cabooses do exist, much like the 5 window standard gauge caboose, it seems that the design looked better on paper than in the production line. Therefore, there are very few of these cabooses in existence.
The one pictured below, is an original that has been redecorated by a previous owner. It is in the process of being restored.
97, 98, 99, 105, and 107 Station Variations
I am describing the 5 station variations together because they used the same building lithography, with the variations simply different lighting systems and or differing years of productions.
The 97, 98, and 99 Stations first appeared in the 1924 catalog. The catalog shows the same picture for the 97 and 98 stations (but does not state which station is shown) and differentiates the two stations by describing the 98 station as having isinglass windows and interior light. The 99 Station is shown separately and features the same characteristics as the 98 station, with the addition of two exterior lights at the corners.
In the 1925 catalog, only the 99 station is shown and the 97 and 98 stations are described as same as 99, but without... the appropriate features that differentiate the 3 stations.
In 1927, the station is only offered as the 105, which is described simply as having two exterior lights. There is no mention of isinglass windows.
In 1928, the station is offered as the 107 Terminal Station, which features a newly designed roof with dormer that features a large brass plate with the station name on it. The station is described as having two exterior lights, orange roof, green dormer and chimney, and red base.
Between 1929 and 1932 the 107 station is described as having 2 exterior lights and 1 interior light, frosted window transparencies, and orange roof.
The station is last shown in the 1932 catalog.
I cannot identify any 97, 98, or 99 stations in my collection to show photos of, but will offer the following variations.
First I will start with a 107 Terminal Station, as described by the catalog as having orange roof. Looks like my flash caused the name plate to be unreadale. It reads Terminal Station.
The next variation is not described in the catalogs, but it has all of the same features, except a red roof. I have seen several of these red roof 107 stations to know that it is a factory produced variation. I am guessing early production.
NWL - thanks for the update on the stations. I had a first go at this back on page 7 of the thread. I have a shot of the first of the series - basic no frills as well as some of the stations you have shown. One thing I noted then and something I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on is the punched out " footprint" of what looks like a hole for a small porcelian light fixture from the day. I've often wondered if this is supposed to be where the interior light for the stations with either no punched windows or punched windows with no interior light was supposed to reside.
mersenne6 NWL - thanks for the update on the stations. I had a first go at this back on page 7 of the thread. I have a shot of the first of the series - basic no frills as well as some of the stations you have shown. One thing I noted then and something I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on is the punched out " footprint" of what looks like a hole for a small porcelian light fixture from the day. I've often wondered if this is supposed to be where the interior light for the stations with either no punched windows or punched windows with no interior light was supposed to reside.
Mersenne6,
I have seen the stations with the large hole punched in the base and my guess is that it was for the owner to add a light. If it was not for the owner to add a light, then it must have been for a lighting system that Flyer opted not to go with.
The one station I have with the large hole in the base, has punched out windows with inserts in them. Although it has no interior lights, it has two exterior lights, which I think may have been added at some point, as although they are Flyer lights, the hole for the wiring through the building walls is somewhat crude and does not match my other stations of this series.
A question for you on the un-punched window variations, do you think that all of the 97 stations came with un-punched windows? I ask, because I have not seen many of these stations with un-punched windows.
The handful of #97's that I've seen have all had unpunched windows. The only problem I have with this statement is that the two stations which I assumed were #98's (no boxes were present) had punched windows and the large punched out space in the base for a light fixture like the one illustrated back on page 7. It was for this reason that I asked you about the kind of light fixture that would fit that "footprint" and I've often wondered if Flyer sold #98's with a light and base to match the cutout.
One other thing which I think Flyer tried to do as far as lighted and unlighted stations were concerned was roof color, at least for the 96/104 series and possibly the 97-107 series. Far more often than not I've found the lighted stations in these series to have some shade of red or orange roof and the unlighted versions to have some shade of green/olive green. This observation is not 100% but my count is skewed heavily in this direction.
Otis B. Drinkwater I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal" Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com " 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)" I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street. So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue. O.
I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal"
Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com
" 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)"
I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found
I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street.
So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years.
I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue.
O.
Time to update the above post, as I researched and found more information.
Nationwidelines Otis B. Drinkwater I researched the Edmonds-Metzel company a bit more, but I have to say that the information prior to 1907 is very scarce. The best source I found was the "Michigan Alumnus, Vol 5, May 1899" It contains the following: " Jay D. Edmonds - (18)96 after graduating spent 2 years as Chief Draftsman at Chicago Screw Co. then was a Mechanical Engineer at Fischer Equipment Co., Chicago until last fall (1898), when he joined with William E. Metzel to form Edmonds-Metzel Mfg. Co. at 253 S. Canal Street, Chicago. Makers of "Perpetual Bicycle Pedal" Researching the bicycle pedal I found the following on www.speedplay.com " 1899 Edmonds and Metzel invent the cylinder bicycle pedal (Aerolite Type)" I found a small blurb in a Chicago City Directory - Edmonds-Metzel Mfg, 778-784 W. Lake Street - Die Paper Cutters, no date found I also found advertisements in 1905 era Popular Mechanics for their wrenches that listed an address of 163-173 Jefferson Street. So they were certainly moving around a bit in the early years. I know that William Ogden Coleman is reported to have gained control of the company in the 1906-1907 timeframe and the address associated with Edmonds-Metzel and American Flyer Trains is 1088 Wilcox Avenue. O. Time to update the above post, as I researched and found more information. The earliest reference that I could find was in a Michigan Alumni reference from 1899. It listed Jay Edmonds as either an 1895 or 1896 graduate, who worked for a metal company in Chicago for 2 years after graduation and forming a business with W. E. Metzel the prior year (1898). Next reference was for Edmonds and Metzel inventing the perpetual bicycle pedal in 1899. In the 1899-1900 Annual Report of the Factory Inspector, I found a listing for Edmonds, Metzel, and Cole MFG at 253-255 South Canal Street. Indicates that the business was inspected March 4, 1900. The same report from 1900-1901 lists same company name and address. I then found a reference in The Iron Age publication of May 23, 1901 that lists a name change to remove Cole. The Iron Age of November 28, 1901 shows an advertisement for the bank they produced and lists an address of 778-784 West Lake Street. The Inland Printer of November 1902 on Page 284 advertises a Multiplex Press Punch for punching holes in paper. The advertisement indicates that the item is patented and lists the West Lake Street address again. The Engineering Magazine, Volume 24 indicates that Mr. A. R. Sheppard is announced as Secretary and Treasurer of Edmonds Metzel. Not sure of the exact date of this, but it appears to be sometime in the 1901-1903 era. Modern Machinery from February 1904 indicates that Edmonds Metzel announced they were moving from Lake Street to 159 S. Jefferson Street. The move was again announced in The Metal Industry, Page 64 from April 1904, where it was announced the new address was 159 South Jefferson Street. The American Machinist of January 28, 1904, Vol 27, page 14, advertises Edmonds Metzel MFG "We manufacture on contract all kinds of hardware and electrical specialties, dies, tools, stamping, and experimental work" There was no address listed for the company in this address. After that the trail goes a bit cold. I could not specifically nail down when the company moved to the Wilcox Avenue/Street location. It could be that the move was when Mr. Coleman took control of the company. NWL
A bit more about Edmonds Metzel.
After my latest posting, a friend asked me if I knew what happened to William E. Metzel. He indicated that he knew of Jay Edmonds going on to a successful career in the industry after exiting Edmonds Metzel MFG.
I am not positive that this is the same William E. Metzel, but the facts seem to correlate. In early 1907, a William E. Metzel is listed as one of the founders of the Indestructible Steel Wheel Corporation, which built a plant in Lebanon, Indiana. He is listed as the Vice President. I find listings for him being associated with the company as late as November 1908.
I then found a death notice for a William E. Metzel of 1438 Windsor Avenue in the Tuesday March 30, 1909 Chicago Tribune. From what I could gather, as I was not reading the entire story without paying, William E. Metzel was stricken with heart failure at his residence at 1438 Winsor Avenue the prior Thursday and died on Sunday at the Kenilworth Sanitarium. He was 35 years old and had been married to Mabel (Best) Metzel for 9 months.
In the "Mutual Interests" (seemingly an insurance publication) June 1909 edition I found a note for a death claim (insurance claim) for William E. Metzel, who was listed as a manufacturer from Chicago. The claim amount was for $2,500.
So it would seem that the Mr. Metzel died shortly after his exit from Edmonds Metzel MFG.
Thanks for doing all of this research and posting it here NWL. I have to admit that I have wondered about the folks who started the company that eventually became our beloved American Flyer company. Now you have filled in the information gap.
I am continually amazed at the information that is available if you do the work to find it. I wish we could get some folks to post here that may have actual Pre War prototypes in their collections.
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
ElGaucho,
Welcome to the thread! I'm not sure what train or catalog page you are referring to. When you reply to a post it doesn't automatically quote the post. If you can tell us the page you were on in the thread, or the engine/train you were referring to, or the page of the catalog that was posted we can probably provide you with more information.
Its good to have another collector with us.
It looks like that would be me over on page 48. Unfortunately that is a dealer price sheet so the image quality isn't the best. I'll see if I can't boost the image size and repost with a larger image. Is there anything in particular you wanted to know about the engine?
Signal Variations
I recently picked up 2 variations of Flyer's Wide Gauge trackside accessories. I am always amazed at the variety of items that Flyer produced with just a few simple changes. If you are a collector of variations these signals provide quite a few variations and they are not break the bank expensive.
I have a number of variations of the #202 Banjo signal.
All of them are lacking the wire rod that activates the signal.
Technically the banjo signal with the activating rod is the #222.
The only difference is that activating rod. The #202 is obviously mounted on the same standard.
The other accessory that I added was a variation of the #207 Single Arm Semaphore.
I have had this variation for a while.
I recently picked up this variation with a wire activating rod.
I haven't come across any documentation of these variations, but I may not have looked hard enough.
So the differences include:
1. different semaphore blades
2. activation rod
3. different bases.
I know that NationWideLines has documented the years that each of the bases appeared but I didn't go back to check the dates.
The base that is taller and more rounded (hump shaped) is the late base from around 1936 and after. Not sure how early it appeared.
Not to change the current subject which is always interesting to me, but can someone please explain or post instructions for a 457 loco control switch? I have seen them and I will confess that I am baffled by them. Thank you again for this great forum!
Per the request for a larger version of the #7 catalog cut - let's see if this is any better
....nope - guess not.
Hi Mersenne6,
Thanks for the catalog repost! But yes, unfortunately it's not clearer. You'd have to re-scan the original page at a nice high resolution.
Thanks though!
vintageflyer Not to change the current subject which is always interesting to me, but can someone please explain or post instructions for a 457 loco control switch? I have seen them and I will confess that I am baffled by them. Thank you again for this great forum!
vitageflyer
I have one of those 457s floating around in my parts box. I've done some research and I don't know what they were used for either. I hope someone can enlighten us both.
American Flyer Whistle and Non Whistle Track on masonite base
We have documented this track somewhere back on the thread, but so far I haven't found the pages that the discussion is on.
This is the well known 4 rail track that Flyer used to operate the whistles that they placed in tenders for the Hudson and Hiawatha and in various cars in other streamlined trains like the Zephyer and the Union Pacific.
There were 4 different tracks: full size straight and curve and 1/2 straight and curve.
The track didn't last long, and for one year they produced a very curious 3 rail track on a masonite base. It isn't shown in the catalog, but it is described.
I recently came across a few pieces of the 3 rail version. Here is a side by side comparison.
As I was taking the photos it looked as if that each curve track was of a different radius. But its an optical illusion.
Has anyone ever set up the 4 rail track and run a tender with a whistle? I have enought track to set up a good size oval, but I have never used it because until recently I didn't have a tender that still had its whistle in it. I now have one and I placed it on the 4 rail track to see how it fit on the track. The special foot that is supposed to ride the 4th rail in the whistle track and one of the other three rails doesn't seem to fit on the rails as it should. I'm wondering if that may be another reason why the 4 rail whistle track was discontiued. Any thoughts?
Northwoods,
The pickup for the whistle power, which is a Y shaped pickup, is designed only to touch the 4th rail and no other rails. It would short out if it touched another rail. As for it being Y shaped, that is so you could put the train on the track in either direction and it would always make contact with the 4th rail.
The reason that the 4 rail track was discontinued was that Lionel sued American Flyer for copyright infringement (and won), which resulted in American Flyer having to discontinue their whistle in tender (or other cars). After discontinuing the whistle in tender, Flyer brought out the 2029 Whistle Billboard in 1937.
I believe that the 3 rail track on fibre board is rarer than the 4 rail track. From what I can gather (based on the catalog description and seeing boxed sets from 1936) the 3 rail track on fiber board was only a separate sale item and was not included in any sets.
Another item that should be noted in addition to the 4 rail track is the Jumper Wire for the 4 rail track, which is a wire designed to connect the 4 rail between accessory track sections, so that the 4th rail does not lose power.
I will have to dig up a photo of the envelope for the Jumper Wire.
Since you brought up the subject of track, here is an oddity. It is the remains of what I believe is a 1914 Switch.
Picture of 4th Rail Jumper Wire an envelope
I am not sure anyone is making that part at this time. You might be better off buying a junker and getting parts that way.
Search the web for prewar American Flyer parts suppliers. Check their sites carefully, remember there are several tab and slot types. Early ones have a "T" slot. I think some are out there.
Nationwidelines I am not sure anyone is making that part at this time. You might be better off buying a junker and getting parts that way.
I have those thoughts also, I just haven't seen anything mangled enough yet I'd classify as a junker.
vintageflyer Search the web for prewar American Flyer parts suppliers. Check their sites carefully, remember there are several tab and slot types. Early ones have a "T" slot. I think some are out there.
I have been & I haven't seen anything that matches yet. The tabs on these cars have notches on each side towards the bottom. I'll post a pic soon.
I have to admit to being a box crazed nut and these are simply classic!
The smaller two are clearly labeled American Flyer and I suspect the larger two, although not labeled American Flyer, will correspond to Flyer numbers if researched a bit more.
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