My daughter wanted a pink train after seeing the 1950's girl's train in CTT. One can of Krylon later, there she be!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Jim,
Say, that's a pretty nice paint job.
Reminds me of the "girl's train" that Lionel made (in the 50's?).
LocoPops wrote:I run a Pennsy Flyer 4-4-2 engine with tender (and also a near identical Wabash 4-4-2), and I've never had a more reliable engine. I've not had a single problem. And it'll pull whatever I put behind it. More than my two prairie steamers. The only load limit I've found is the length of track I have to park it. Its been terrific.
Same with the pink train above. Never a lick of trouble. All that's ever been done to it has been to clean the drivers and rollers. Smokes like crazy and pulls like a clydesdale.
Geno wrote:I could see how a beginner would be very upset if they received this train set and didn't know how to adjust the engine- more than likely it would either be returned or just packed away. Alot of first time buyers don't realize that sometimes these trains still require a bit of tweaking to get them to run right. Geno
A beginner wouldn't even notice those things. They would simply run the set for years, enjoying it. It takes a scale-oriented train hobbiest to notice and get upset over them.
Jumijo wrote: Like Ben, we have a starter set 4-4-2 from 1995. It runs and smokes like a champ. 12 years old and still running fine. I painted it pink for my daughter.
Like Ben, we have a starter set 4-4-2 from 1995. It runs and smokes like a champ. 12 years old and still running fine. I painted it pink for my daughter.
Thanks to Dr. Tinker and Krylon.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
I just want to thank all who have been contributing to this discussion.
TMT
Thanks Don. You and John have helped me remember that respect in the hobby is a two-way street. While I sympathize with the train companies for all the money they are spending, truth is, they push these products as the next best thing. And people pay very good money for them, and then they don't work. The customer has a right to be annoyed. Service and parts need to go hand-in-hand with the development of new products, regardless of production runs. The train companies promote the technologically advanced products and therefore, they need to back them up and be ready to assist the customer.
I'm content to be a so-called "bottom end feeder" because I can fix the stuff myself. But I do admire the guys who can tinker and repair the more advanced products, which are beyond me. Being able to improve and fix my own stuff makes the hobby not only fun, but affordable for me. I couldn't afford to pay someone to do everything I want or need done. But I take my trains outside of the warranty arena. Anyone who hasn't messed or altered with their trains should have the reasonable expectation of prompt and reliable warranty service.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Brainel, I couldn't agree with you more!!
I will take any of the defects you all will want to get rid of.
Don
My first Lionel set had an engine very similar to the one in the current Pennsy Flyer set. The motor, I presume, is the same, however mine has an older style body casting with a feedwater heater on the front.
In fact, I have two of these, purchased in two different sets one year apart-one in '95 and one in '96.
As you can see, they're both over ten years old now, and still run great. I've never had a bit of trouble with them.
I even upgraded one to TMCC, just to see if it could be done. It also works great.
Admittedly, they do have tiny motors and a seemingly very limited range of speed(stopped or full speed).
They do have a traction tire, though, and I'm constantly amazed at how much they can pull. I had the TMCC one pulling 26 modern era O27 cars(fast angle wheels and needle point bearings) one time, and it didn't even bat an eye.
In addition, the gearing is such that they will coast a considerable distance even with the power cut. They are spur geared, so the momentum of the die-cast shell and the rest of the train will continue to push the engine even with no power to the motor. This also means that kids can push them with no chance of causing harm.
With all of this in mind, I really believe that there's no better starter set engine that Lionel could put in their sets.
Geno wrote:I finally got a chance to crack open that PE set I bought at Macy's. I started by opening the box that held the engine- upon inspection I noticed the flanged wheelsets looked like some took a grinder to them to clean up some casting defects. After setting it on the track and running it, I was dissapointed to find the engine had a bit of a wobble, and the smoke piston wasn't properly adjusted (clicking in forward). A quick pull of the shell and a little tweaking fixed the clicking, and a bit of adjustment on the traction tires fixed the wobble- more running will more than likely help this engine break in and run smoother. The rest of the set went together fine.The newer PE engines have a large vertical can motor, good for pulling plenty of cars, but thirsty for power. I tested this by hooking the engine up to a train of (4) K-Line 21" Bombardier commuter cars, and the Jr berk handled it easily. But this engine likes amps- the many lights of those scale commuter cars slowed the PE Berk in the turns. If you have accessories like lights or operating items, as well as the lighted PE cars, your Berk will probably do the same. I could see how a beginner would be very upset if they received this train set and didn't know how to adjust the engine- more than likely it would either be returned or just packed away. Alot of first time buyers don't realize that sometimes these trains still require a bit of tweaking to get them to run right. Geno
That tweaking should never have to have been done....it tells us that no one at the factory actually ran the engine before shipping.
Or as usual in consumer products, the consumer is once again being used as an unpaid volunteer for Quality Control. A company who believes in quality control will do the work at the factory so the consumer doesn't have to.
This does mean that the product will cost more...quality always does.
brianel027 wrote: I'll add my two cents and echo what Jim H. said, that as far as quality, relibility and repairability, there ARE instances where less is more. I've bought a good number of the so-called lower end starter trains and have had no major problems. Not that one couldn't have problems, but because most of the lower end items (be they Lionel, K-Line, Williams or whoever) use standardized parts and components that are used from one loco model to another. They're time tested, parts ARE available for the majority and most dealers/service centers and novice repair train guys CAN fix them.It depends on who you ask as to who actually makes the overall best higher end product: and that includes both initial quality and then parts availability and service. Some say MTH and others say Lionel. I see just as many threads along the lines of "I'll nver buy from them again" for Lionel as I do MTH. I do understand the frustration anyone could have when you have paid top dollar for a premium product and then it fails to work. It's not just the overseas quality control, but shipping from overseas can play into this - especially for fragile, complicated items. And again, many of these items are totally new from completely new parts that don't have the benefit of being time tested in other items, save for standardized electronic circuit board features that get used in multiple products. And remember, Sanda Kan (the overseas vendor who makes nearly all the trains from anyone) is a contractor - and I'm sure they get pressured to hurry up production schedules and keep prices down. As explained in the OGR magazine article on Sanda Kan, many of the higher end items are newly developed and tooled and made in small number limited runs. Train companies like Lionel or MTH could have easily spent millions to bring one of these locos to market, so financial considerations along with unique one-item only parts may inhibit immediate parts availabity. Of course, that matters little to the consumer who has just dropped a grand on a train engine that doesn't work... he's just paid top dollar and expects quality on the level he paid for and service to go along with it. the train commpanies have brought some of this on to themselves with offering so many items that have unique parts and by moving engineering/development/production overseas.TMT, going back to your question, take it from me... you will not be disappointed with any of the current basic Lionel sets (save for maybe the Targer Passenger Set with unlighted cars). And I think those unlighed cars, though a mistake on Lionel's part, are more in consideration for the smaller lower power transformer included in the set. It wouldn't be that hard to buy one roller pickup assembly for each car and light them up yourself with a soldering gun and the 6 volt CHRISTmas bulbs I mentioned in another post. I've got those basic Lionel 4-4-2 steamers that are mostly 12+ years old (one that is 17 years old) and all are still running.There are still decent value used and still sealed original K-Line sets out there too, which are also good value and bang for the buck. Williams locos and cars are good value for the money, and so is the Ready Made Toys RDC "Buddy." And although there are no complete sets, the new K-Line by Lionel is also good value for the money, although many items are already way behind in production and shipping. But they do seem to be on the way.And if you like to tinker, even the older Lionel MPC items are a very decent value. I operate loads of the cheaper, so called "crappy" items and they work just great with some small tinkering.... sometimes even without. I've got MPC era locos that are over 35 years old and still work just great. I make modifications to the mechanical stound of steam and it works perfectly, even on 027 curves. I have a plastic bodied MPC era Dockside with a Pullmor motor that I have made no alterations to, and I'm amazed myself at how long a train that little guy pulls - with no traction tire even!!! I got a fluke on that one... that's an amazing little loco for the $10 I paid for it years ago.So just bite the bullet and get a set my friend... if you do by chance have troubles, I'm sure many of us here can help you through it.
I'll add my two cents and echo what Jim H. said, that as far as quality, relibility and repairability, there ARE instances where less is more. I've bought a good number of the so-called lower end starter trains and have had no major problems. Not that one couldn't have problems, but because most of the lower end items (be they Lionel, K-Line, Williams or whoever) use standardized parts and components that are used from one loco model to another. They're time tested, parts ARE available for the majority and most dealers/service centers and novice repair train guys CAN fix them.
It depends on who you ask as to who actually makes the overall best higher end product: and that includes both initial quality and then parts availability and service. Some say MTH and others say Lionel. I see just as many threads along the lines of "I'll nver buy from them again" for Lionel as I do MTH. I do understand the frustration anyone could have when you have paid top dollar for a premium product and then it fails to work. It's not just the overseas quality control, but shipping from overseas can play into this - especially for fragile, complicated items. And again, many of these items are totally new from completely new parts that don't have the benefit of being time tested in other items, save for standardized electronic circuit board features that get used in multiple products. And remember, Sanda Kan (the overseas vendor who makes nearly all the trains from anyone) is a contractor - and I'm sure they get pressured to hurry up production schedules and keep prices down.
As explained in the OGR magazine article on Sanda Kan, many of the higher end items are newly developed and tooled and made in small number limited runs. Train companies like Lionel or MTH could have easily spent millions to bring one of these locos to market, so financial considerations along with unique one-item only parts may inhibit immediate parts availabity. Of course, that matters little to the consumer who has just dropped a grand on a train engine that doesn't work... he's just paid top dollar and expects quality on the level he paid for and service to go along with it. the train commpanies have brought some of this on to themselves with offering so many items that have unique parts and by moving engineering/development/production overseas.
TMT, going back to your question, take it from me... you will not be disappointed with any of the current basic Lionel sets (save for maybe the Targer Passenger Set with unlighted cars). And I think those unlighed cars, though a mistake on Lionel's part, are more in consideration for the smaller lower power transformer included in the set. It wouldn't be that hard to buy one roller pickup assembly for each car and light them up yourself with a soldering gun and the 6 volt CHRISTmas bulbs I mentioned in another post. I've got those basic Lionel 4-4-2 steamers that are mostly 12+ years old (one that is 17 years old) and all are still running.
There are still decent value used and still sealed original K-Line sets out there too, which are also good value and bang for the buck. Williams locos and cars are good value for the money, and so is the Ready Made Toys RDC "Buddy." And although there are no complete sets, the new K-Line by Lionel is also good value for the money, although many items are already way behind in production and shipping. But they do seem to be on the way.
And if you like to tinker, even the older Lionel MPC items are a very decent value. I operate loads of the cheaper, so called "crappy" items and they work just great with some small tinkering.... sometimes even without. I've got MPC era locos that are over 35 years old and still work just great. I make modifications to the mechanical stound of steam and it works perfectly, even on 027 curves. I have a plastic bodied MPC era Dockside with a Pullmor motor that I have made no alterations to, and I'm amazed myself at how long a train that little guy pulls - with no traction tire even!!! I got a fluke on that one... that's an amazing little loco for the $10 I paid for it years ago.
So just bite the bullet and get a set my friend... if you do by chance have troubles, I'm sure many of us here can help you through it.
Thanks again for an excellent post.
Just tonight I checked again at several major stores...no 6v bulbs but LOTS of 2.4v bulbs.
Well let me put it this way as far as the dealerships stance on Lionel items. I had purchased the GEORGE WASHINGTON pacific engine and 7 passenger cars off my hobbey shop guy. The light went bad in the engine he gave me another replacement and that did not work. It was a good light because I tested it in another engine. Without batting an eye, gave me another engine and tender no questions asked. Now thats what I call standing behind the product. He told me he would ship it back to Lionel. I have had other things that couldn't be fixed, and was given anew again NO questions asked.
laz57
I was in Charles Ro this morning. The largest Lionel dealer on the planet was selling Lionel items like hotcakes. Sets, track, cars, you name it. We bought Diesel and S.C. Ruffey for our Thomas collection. Cool horn on Diesel, but not very loud.
My point is that the store was full of people buying Lionel merchandise of all kinds. I doubt many of them will be disappointed in what they bought.
Initially I had the transformer on the track, and I tried both the engine that came with the set, and my 242 2-4-2. Neither worked. Then I tried measuring the output. Pretty much nil.
At that point in time, all I had for track was curves, a few straight sections, and a 90' crossover. I had no turnouts, or any electrical accessories for the layout at that point in time. It wasn't until after the CW-80 was replaced that I got a pair of uncoupling track sections and turnouts.
As far as the fate of the first CW-80, I have lost contact with the guy I traded it with. I don't even remember his name, but we were both frequent customers at the train booth at the Flea Market in Summerville, SC.
That was about 4 1/2 years ago and about 1500 miles away fron where I am stationed now. (Groton, CT)
I remember that he wanted to crack open the CW-80 to see how it worked and to fix it. I memory serves properly, he was able to fix it.
If memory also serves, one of the leads inside the transformer going to the track connection was broken.
I remember talking to the local Lionel repair guy, who told me that the "CW-80 was junk and I was better off with Postwar transformers".
So far the CW-80 that came with my Polar Express is chugging along. But, in all fairness, I prefer to used my slightly dented and rusted 110W Type R.
Years have passed, I have rapidly learned how to rebuild engines and rolling stock, but I still refuse to mess with the CW-80.
So many scales, so many trains, so little time.....
LS1Heli,
You wrote:
"The Internet really amplifies the absolute deepest stupidity of the human race."
Something I can surely agree with. Did you study under Ilkka Kokkarinen?
The reason I quit having Ford cars is because they break down on me too much, and Lionel reminds me too much of Ford Motor company, NO service after the sale!!!
If you keep something long enuff it will have a problem but to break down within a year is not good and what is worse is NO customer service or warrenty to back it up!!
I have a Williams engine that is about six years old and the circuit board acted up so I replaced it myself, after six years you can expect to have a problem but not in the first year.
Lee F.
phillyreading wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: LS1Heli wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: To cut to the chase, does Lionel put out junk?Yes, that would be correct. Most company's that have been around for 100+ years mainly produce junk. All companies make some junk...I am trying to make sure that I don't buy any of it. TMTIt is my opion that Lionel puts out more junk per thousand than any other company. What you do to correct a problem is called customer service and or repair service. In my dealings with Lionel I have not got decent customer service if any for the problems that I have submitted to thier service department in the past 15 years. In my opion Lionel Trains has a Triple F rating for customer service!!MTH and Williams put out better quality per thousand and stand behind thier products.Lee F.
Too_Many_Tools wrote: LS1Heli wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: To cut to the chase, does Lionel put out junk?Yes, that would be correct. Most company's that have been around for 100+ years mainly produce junk. All companies make some junk...I am trying to make sure that I don't buy any of it. TMT
LS1Heli wrote: Too_Many_Tools wrote: To cut to the chase, does Lionel put out junk?Yes, that would be correct. Most company's that have been around for 100+ years mainly produce junk.
Too_Many_Tools wrote: To cut to the chase, does Lionel put out junk?
To cut to the chase, does Lionel put out junk?
Yes, that would be correct. Most company's that have been around for 100+ years mainly produce junk.
All companies make some junk...I am trying to make sure that I don't buy any of it.
It is my opion that Lionel puts out more junk per thousand than any other company. What you do to correct a problem is called customer service and or repair service. In my dealings with Lionel I have not got decent customer service if any for the problems that I have submitted to thier service department in the past 15 years. In my opion Lionel Trains has a Triple F rating for customer service!!
MTH and Williams put out better quality per thousand and stand behind thier products.
I don't carew who you buy from there is aways bad that slip thur. Now heres another way to look at it I use to hate chevy because every chevy I ever had I had problems with does that make them all bad no I presently own a 2003 silverado 1500 its the best vehicle I've ever owned. (and I bought it used with 107,000 miles on it)
Now for lionel I've bought 6 of there low end sets in the last 10 years had a problem with one of the 3 NYc sets I got (early 90's ones) had to replace the motor and circuit board in the engine now all these I bought were supose to be NIB but they wern't but still with the one exception all were great runners. and the one I fix it turned out to be a great item after that and I still have the engine.
I now just say its the luck of the draw not weather its lionel,MTH,Atlas,Williams or Weaver. Now I do have 2 williams and love them both. No power units by any of the others at present.
Now if I could I would go with a postwar unit in a heart beat.
Also freind has a hobby shop in VA and when I lived there he had more problems with MTH engines than Lionel and Lionel were cheaper to fix than MTH as Lionel had multible boards and MTH had just one. So you had to replace the whole system. instead of a part of the whole system.
I have talked to lionel a couple of times trying to get info on older trains and mainly I thought they could use a little better customer service than they give but then I've had just as rude from MTH the one time I've talked to them. The best help I've ever got was from Bachmann and I say hurray they got williams and not one of the other manufactures I wish williams was still williams but believe Bachmann will do it justice. the only other company was K-Line but Lionel has it so there you go.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
You get what you pay for applies to most Lionel sets I have seen. The leaset expensive sets are an excellent value FOR WHAT YOU GET. Once you get into command control / sound units the MTH sets are propably a better value. One thing I have noticed (unlike what the review might lead you to believe), the reliability does not go up with the price. I have gotten very reliable Lionel starter sets.....and one very unreliable $600 TI duplex engine (stops chuffing). The first time they fixed it under warranty (I paid for shipping) but this time I would have to pay. I do not think they have one set of "quality" at one price point and different quality at lower price point. Features may change but the quality is independent of price.
I do not see a problem with the 30W powermax transformer. Really...my old 1960's set had a 30Watt tranformer and the motor takes a lot more power than the current can motors.
I purchased the Penn Central starter set about 4 years ago for my son. It continues to run fine. I also picked up another Lionel set from Hobby Lobby (a customer return due to bad CW-80). I purchased several K-line starter sets (much better value IMHO) ...but they are gone now so really Lionel has the base of the market to themselves.
Looking at the two reviews...the "transformer defect" and "poor customer support" could have been said about either set. The slightly underpowered part I do not get. My engine has always pulled plenty of cars. It is a tad top heavy (like most steam units).
If I could spend more I would go for the Polar Express. If I wanted to save my money for an expansion set or just to limit my outlay...I would go for the starter set. Just my two cents worth!
Jim H
Railroader_Sailor,
OK, so when the green light and the fan came on did you simply measure the voltage across the A and B posts; or did you actually hook it up and try to run a train?
If you tried to run a train, was anything connected to the "accessory terminals" such as certain accessories or "fancy" track hookups, such as constant-voltage plugs in your turnouts?
Did you ever try just to run a loco on a short stretch of track with nothing else connected to it?
I have seen some of what you reported, but have never known anyone to fix it; so I am very interested in what happened to your first CW. Thanks in advance.
I only have the Polar Express engine and original tender so I cannot comment about the cars. For me, it is a quality product. I changed the name to NYC and it is presently pulling my Post War multi-car consist very easily.
I am also running three passenger cars from the NYC Flyer Expansion pack. They look and run well.
My only complaint (if it is one) about some of the newer Lionel products is the use of more lighter weight plastic, especially on the trucks. BUT, that is only my .
Overall, I think the old saying "You get what you pay for." holds some truth. Yet, I think, that overall Lionel still makes quality products. Thanks for asking.
TMT,The 30w 'Powermax' (again with the ironic names) is an obvious cost-cutter, barely powerful enough to power the Target diesel passenger set- it will be totally inedequate when more cars and track are added. And the diesel is the old MPC-era Alco PA shell that has been around for easily over 50 years, powered no doubt by the same cheap mini can motors found in disposable toys. It will eventually die and end up in the trash.The Southwestern set is a much better choice for a starter set- more cars, a diesel with Trainsounds, CW-80 transformer, and the potential to easily expand with an available expansion set. This set is also nice IMO as it is modern representative of trains we see today- very important for some kids (like me), who like to run what we see.
The diesel is an upgraded version of a Lionel base model GP-38, with truck mounted mini can motors- not the greatest puller IMO, but with the Trainsounds it makes a nice first modern diesel. It will not perform as well as any scale 3-rail GP-38 (most of those have the 'China drive'- twin vertical can motors and traction tires), but the cheapest separate-sale version, made by Williams, easily costs as much as the entire Lionel train set and doesn't come with sound (horn only). You would have to spend at least $300 or more from Lionel, Altas, or Weaver to get diesel sounds, but then you also get command control.
I bought the PE set a couple of years ago for my nieces, and finally got to try it out last November when I was up in Oregon. Despite some issues other owners have had with it, I would say the set has an overall quality to it that either a longtime train guy or firstime beginner would expect from Lionel. After a little maintenance (pull the shell, lube, etc.), the engine ran and smoked very nicely- I suspect it will run even smoother after its' break in. My experience with the PE convinced me to pick up a PE set for myself. I normally buy scale 3 rail engines and some 2-rail rolling stock, but these starter sets are so much fun I couldn't resist.Geno
The green light would come on, but only a very small amount of voltage would be applied to the terminals. I do not know if my firend had to open up the pack, I never saw it again after I traded it to him. I remeber he said that the CW-80 at the time was really prone to breaking down and neded work.
I just wanted a working transformer that did not have any issues, so I traded him my CW-80 for a pair of smaller PW transformers.
I had just started out in O scale at that point, I had been around it for some time, but I had never had a new set, and at the time, all I had for O-27 was the Penn Flyer, a 1962 2-4-2 starter set, and a Marx 490 steam train.
At the time, I had a 4x8 table with 3 loops, a figure 8 in the center, with 2 ovals around it. The starter set came with a good transformer, so trading in one transformer for 2 others was a good idea.
At that point in time, I had no experience with repairing O scale trains, and I did not feel comfortable with cracking open the CW-80.
I managed to get the Polar Express when they first came out, a good friend of mine ran a train store in Charleston, SC, so he set one aside for me. The CW-80 that came with it has worked fine so far.
I brushed off the failrue of the first CW-80 as a fluke, and bought 2 more at a train show, for $50 each, they were still in their packaging. One was also DOA (I never cracked it open, I figured that at the time, it may have been damaged in transit, theire was a nice chip out of one of the footpads on it.) The other worked fine for about a year, then the fan started squealing.
I do not know offhand if the other CW-80s were the old or revised versions.
The squealing ones still put out power, but I am reluctant to use them.
For the most part, my trains do not get run hard. On occasion people have visited and pushed some to derail, and some pet involvement has come into play. (Imagine a 2026 with a 6 car train being run on a track setup on the floor with about a 20 foot straight away being plowed into head-on by a 3 pound cat.)
One thing I will say is that I wish that Lionel could make it's basic equipment as hardy and rugged as Marx did. I have a rather large Marx collection, and none has failed to run. (May need some cleaning, but they all run) (Even a 666 that was missing one of it's drive wheels.)
I have had a good portionof my newer Lionel collection run well. Examples include my Southern GP-38, the Pol Ex, my Transylvania 0-6-0, and my Penn Flyer loco after complete re-soldering of it's card and leads, and my Transylvania Flyer.
After putting the wheel back onto my 8226 NYC RS-3, it has had no problems whatsoever.
I will have to admit, the quality of Lionel rolling stock and locos has gone up in the past few years, I have a number of MPC era cars and such that needed upgrades mostly because of the dratted plastic rivets on the anorexic freight cars from the mid 70's Silver Star.
Not to mention the only "Sound of Steam" system that works from the 70's and 80's is the mechanical version that sounds like a refridgerator being thrown down a rocky hill.
Like I said before, most of my Lionel stuff has worked great, just some items needed some work, and a smaller fraction needs serious work to run again. (Chessie GP-38)
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